What would be good going rate on Ebay for Worldmark credits?

[Cathyb]

We own 10,000 Worldmark credits (bought resale), but are tempted to purchase another 6-10,000 via Ebay if price is right since the city timeshare requirements are getting more expesive in credits.

1. Any harm buying via Ebay? We bought thru a reputable resale broker the first time.

2. Things we should watch out for if we decide to go the Ebay route?

3. I am guessing 45 cents/credit is a good price right now. Am I correct?

4. Would these credits be handled differently than the ones we bought before and got grandfathered in?

Thanks for any help shared

 

[Bill4728]

Cathy,

What not just rent the credits from other WM owners? You can likely do it for less than the MFs that would come along with the credits. And then if you don't need them one year, you don't have to rent them.

Talk to BocaBum about renting them.

 

[Shon_t]

We own 10,000 Worldmark credits (bought resale), but are tempted to purchase another 6-10,000 via Ebay if price is right since the city timeshare requirements are getting more expesive in credits.

1. Any harm buying via Ebay? We bought thru a reputable resale broker the first time.

2. Things we should watch out for if we decide to go the Ebay route?

3. I am guessing 45 cents/credit is a good price right now. Am I correct?

4. Would these credits be handled differently than the ones we bought before and got grandfathered in?

Thanks for any help shared

The average price this week was around 44 cents per credit. I frequently see premiere accounts sold for 65 cents per credit or more (usually fully loaded accounts, ie. 6k credit with 12k available), and this last week I saw a 12k account sell for 23 cents per credit... the cheapest I have ever seen.

1. I bought two accounts via Ebay, one through Cloud 9, and one through Henri at WMCredits.net (His icon on ebay is the toes in the sand). If you're concerns about a specific reseller...ask. WMowners.com is an excellent resource as well.

2. With Cloud 9, I had to pay first...and wait more than a month for the paperwork to process. With Henri...I didn't have to pay anything until the paperwork was completed, and I was allowed to call Worldmark and verify the account information. The whole process only took a couple of weeks.

In terms of "things to look out for" I would recommend going through a reputable reseller. "Timeshare angels" is another reseller that does a huge amount of business on ebay. I would also recommend trying to verify the account through Worldmark before you pay anything.(The owner of the account can give you permission).

3. I wouldn't be so concerns about the greatest deal, as I would about a good deal. If you see an account that you like, and are able to afford 60 cents a credit...it is certainly better than the 2 dollars per credit Worldmark charges at retail.

4. It would be a separate account with it's own maturity date. You could decide to keep it that way, and pay the extra maintenance fees (you can get extra bonus time that way) or combine it with your current account.

Remember...accounts bought via resell are NOT "Travelshare" eligible, but with the HUGE amount of money you will save...most people still believe buying resell to be well worth it.

 

[Cathyb]

Thank you both for your information!

 

[larry_WM]

Cathy,

What not just rent the credits from other WM owners? You can likely do it for less than the MFs that would come along with the credits. And then if you don't need them one year, you don't have to rent them.

Talk to BocaBum about renting them.

Renting is a risky andtime consuming business. If you don't count opportunity cost, it's hard to rent bellow the MF cost. A big account have some more benefit than a small account with renting point

 

[larry_WM]

The average price this week was around 44 cents per credit. I frequently see premiere accounts sold for 65 cents per credit or more (usually fully loaded accounts, ie. 6k credit with 12k available), and this last week I saw a 12k account sell for 23 cents per credit... the cheapest I have ever seen.

1. I bought two accounts via Ebay, one through Cloud 9, and one through Henri at WMCredits.net (His icon on ebay is the toes in the sand). If you're concerns about a specific reseller...ask. WMowners.com is an excellent resource as well.

2. With Cloud 9, I had to pay first...and wait more than a month for the paperwork to process. With Henri...I didn't have to pay anything until the paperwork was completed, and I was allowed to call Worldmark and verify the account information. The whole process only took a couple of weeks.

In terms of "things to look out for" I would recommend going through a reputable reseller. "Timeshare angels" is another reseller that does a huge amount of business on ebay. I would also recommend trying to verify the account through Worldmark before you pay anything.(The owner of the account can give you permission).

3. I wouldn't be so concerns about the greatest deal, as I would about a good deal. If you see an account that you like, and are able to afford 60 cents a credit...it is certainly better than the 2 dollars per credit Worldmark charges at retail.

4. It would be a separate account with it's own maturity date. You could decide to keep it that way, and pay the extra maintenance fees (you can get extra bonus time that way) or combine it with your current account.

Remember...accounts bought via resell are NOT "Travelshare" eligible, but with the HUGE amount of money you will save...most people still believe buying resell to be well worth it.

Your method of collecting and calculating average price is very simple and naive. You have to standardize the price before calculating, otherwise the data has no meaning at all. I rather to buy a 6000 wm account for $3600 (60cents/per credit by your calculation ) with 12000 available,6000 credit in reservation and january anniversary, $150 transfer cost from a reputable dealer than a 6000 wm account for $1800 ( 30cents/credit per your calculation) with ngative 6000 credit ballance, december anniversary and $150 transfer cost+$500 closing cost from an unknown seller,just an extreme example to illustrate the idea. Credits available, anniversary date,MF already paid,closing cost and the reputability of the seller are very important factors.

It's true that the price on ebay is going down lately, but I also recognize that there are more and untrustworthy seller appeared in that market. Buying on ebay is fun, but you have to take everything in consideration.
I dealt with Jeff Fudge and Angel England before, they are very trustworthy too.

 

[Cathyb]

wow, more food for thought. Didn't know you could sell a 'negative balance' package. Does the front office at Worldmark reveal this if the seller has not?

 

[larry_WM]

WM account can borrow credit for next year. In this case,the account have a negative balance.

 

[Shon_t]

Simple and Naive? Ouch!

Since I didn't explain the way I calculate the average price... and your calculations are yours... not mine...I'm not sure how you could jump to such a conclusion. In fact, I found your reply a bit rude.

I do agree with you though, that all factors need to be taken into consideration. Many of those factors however, are intrinsic and qualitative in value, rather than quantitative, and highly subjective. You could assign a value...but it would be based on your personal taste, interest, and needs.

When I'm looking at an "average price" I am generally looking at the final bid price and add all additional charges (including overdue or pending maintenance fees) and then divide that by the total number of credits purchased. While fully loaded accounts generally fall at the higher end of the average...accounts with a negative balance fall at the lower end, so they balance each other out.

Obviously, other factors like maturity date, and reputation of the seller, also factor in to price...but quite frankly...I've been keeping track since May and the difference is not so great, that sometimes fully loaded accounts actually sell for less than others.

Still..these things matter, and should be considered. To me, it would be naive to see an average, and expect to buy a fully loaded account from a reputable reseller for the average price or less. Instead..all those factors you mentioned, should be taken into consideration. But different people have different considerations.

For example...for my first account...I would not want to buy a 6k account that matured in December with zero credits available. It just wouldn't be worth it to pay a year of maintenance fees and not have the vacations. IF however, I already own 14K, that matures in March... that I'm rolling it into...I would be very happy to purchase the account and pay significantly less. The account will mature sooner if I roll it over, I would also be gaining an extra house keeping token per year, and attain "gold member" status (vip reservation phone number, free movie rental) which would be more attractive for me, than someone else where it would make little difference. Again...those are all subjective reasons for assessing value.

In a real world example...I bought a 12k account (12k available) for an average price from a reputable seller (I had no idea if they were reputable or not when I purchased it) that matured in three months. After the account matured I got 12k AND an additional 12k from Worldmark as part of the "Experience bonus" the previous owner received on their contract when they purchase. I also rolled the account into another account that matured later in the year...netting some 36k credits in a very short period of time. It was only an average account by most standards, but for me, it was like purchasing a fully loaded account, and I paid significantly less.

 

[Shon_t]

wow, more food for thought. Didn't know you could sell a 'negative balance' package. Does the front office at Worldmark reveal this if the seller has not?

Yes, if you are allowed to call them (you have to get permission from the seller or owner).

Usually though..the information is supplied in the listing, although sometimes it can be a little difficult to decipher. Sometimes they will camouflage it...but you can still see, "Not available until Dec 2009" or "1000 credits available March 2009). Still..it is always a good idea to contact Worldmark and verify any information on an ebay listing. All reputable sellers post how many credits you are purchasing, how many credits are available, and what the maturity date of the account is. They will also tell you what additional fees are charged (if any) that will be added to the final bid price. Most sellers will add extra fees (minimum $150), but a very few sellers (mostly private owners) will not charge a thing in addition to the final bid.

If you would like a more apples to apples comparison in terms of price, I have been tracking Ebay sales data since the end of May, and could provide you with a copy of every sell (other than loan assumptions and No-Housekeeping Accounts). Generally speaking, while fully loaded (6k account 12k available) accounts often sell for more, that is not always the case.

Just PM me with your email address if you are interested.

 

[larry_WM]

Simple and Naive? Ouch!

Since I didn't explain the way I calculate the average price... and your calculations are yours... not mine...I'm not sure how you could jump to such a conclusion. In fact, I found your reply a bit rude.

.

Your method of calculation was explained in other board.

The "average price" as tracked in this study, will not include factors like "Front-loaded accounts", date of maturity, or number of house keeping tokens. Such issues should be independently assessed when considering a purchase.

It's a useless data, if not want to say misleading.

 

[Shon_t]

Usless for some purposes perhaps, many others have expressed finding it extremly helpful.

To each their own, I suppose...

 

[larry_WM]

The average price this week was around 44 cents per credit.

44 cents per credit for an account with negative balance or an account with 2 years credit available and anniversary date coming next month ? the value of 3-4 years credit is worth around 20 cents- 35 cents. The basic principle we learn at elementary school is we can't compare apple to orange. Only a fool considers that data useful. It's better to have no data than wrong data !

 

[melschey]

44 cents per credit for an account with negative balance or an account with 2 years credit available and anniversary date coming next month ? the value of 3-4 years credit is worth around 20 cents- 35 cents. The basic principle we learn at elementary school is we can't compare apple to orange. Only a fool considers that data useful. It's better to have no data than wrong data !

As long as the prices are tracked in a consistent manner I feel the the date is useful because it shows how the prices are trending. I agree it is misleading in trying to establish a purchase price though.

I also don't think Shon is a fool!

 

[larry_WM]

I also don't think Shon is a fool!

I never say Shon is a fool. I just said only a fool would believe in such data.
I learned early in middle school a measurement system or computational method is called valid if it is both accurate and precise, If you forget here is the link to review
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

As long as the prices are tracked in a consistent manner I feel the the date is useful because it shows how the prices are trending. I agree it is misleading in trying to establish a purchase price though.

I don't need to collect such data to conclude that the trendis down. If you graph Dow Jones index or whatever economy index with Shon's graph, it will have the same trend.
Credits available, anniversary date are very important factors to ignore.As I showed two extreme examples, the difference is 4 years worth of credits which can be translate to 20-32 cents per credit. A number that average 45 with the variation of 20-32 is absolutely not acceptable. How useful is such data?

 

[Amy]

I bought a WM package on eBay from Timeshare Angels last month. Super fast transfer -- from beginning to the date I received email notification of my new owners number about 3 weeks. The in-house closing agent was great at email and phone responses, always responding promptly. And I bought back when they didn't have any stated closing costs; last time I checked they've added closing costs but just take that into consideration when calculating your total bid. What I didn't like about the outfit (but none significantly enough to overcome my overall positive experience): (1) The listing stated one anniversary date but the paperwork I received (including letter from WM about the contract) was a different month. I emailed to ask if they sent the wrong paperwork. The agent said no error, but there was no apology; instead, she said she thought this anniversary month would work better for me because I'll get the 2009 points in a few months. Well, she should have asked me before she made that assumption. Good thing I didn't mind. (2) The eBay listing on my auction made it sounds as if the closing/escrow would be handled by an independent company. I suspected that was not the case and when I checked out the closing company's website I noticed it was owned by the same outfit. The subsequent email contact made that clear as well. So I went in knowing the closing agent was in house and took that into consideration; I bought from them anyway because they had great eBay feedback and a long history, so as long as I could win at my max price, it wasn't a big deal. Still I dislike the lack of honestly on this point.

I think you are okay as long as you find a eBay seller with a long history of positive experiences (and if you see a negative here and there, read the comments because there are some bad buyers out there who'd deliberately/wrongfully mess with seller's feedback ratings; and I speak from painful personal experience on that front).

 

[Cathyb]

Amy: Wise words, thank you!

 

[Shon_t]

Credits available, anniversary date are very important factors to ignore.As I showed two extreme examples, the difference is 4 years worth of credits which can be translate to 20-32 cents per credit. A number that average 45 with the variation of 20-32 is absolutely not acceptable. How useful is such data?

In actuality Larry, the anniversary date and credits available occasionally make little difference in final sale price on ebay. In fact..just this last week, there was a fully loaded 6k (12k available) account, that sold for less than a 6k (6k available) account, and a 6k, (0k available) account. One account sold for 4 cents per credit more than the loaded account, the other for 2 cents per credit more, and all were from reputable resellers. A couple of weeks before that (12-8) a fully loaded account sold for 50 cents per credit, followed by a non-loaded account that sold (12-13) for 61 cents per credit.

These aren't "hypothetical examples" but actually sales, and while such transactions are not frequent, they certainly aren't out of the ordinary.

In my book, a fully loaded account is worth more...but it is the bidding activity that drives the sale price on ebay, and the "spread" in sales prices, is often independent of whether an account has additional credits available or not. The question isn't whether a fully loaded account sells for more, or contains more value...but rather...how much more?

Of course...I'm actually tracking the data, where you are just making general assumptions, and therein lays our difference in perspective. While you ASSUME a 20-30 cent per credit difference, an actual comparison of the sales figures shows less than a 5 cent difference on average.

In fact...when I take the last 10 fully loaded 6k (12k available) accounts dated from September to end of December, and compare them to 10 6k (6k available) accounts sold in September ...Ironically the non-loaded accounts actually average about 1 cent more (58 cents per credit and 59 cents per credit respectively)...but when you take into account how much the market has fallen since September, it is easy to see why there is a discrepancy, and obviously I made adjustments for that.

There is also a 5 cent difference in comparing loaded accounts that sold from September-December (higher credit values) to non-loaded accounts sold in December.(much lower credit values.). Similarly, when you take a fully loaded account...and average the price of the non-loaded accounts with the same credit value, sold on the same day, or within the same week, you will see roughly, a 5 cent difference. Sure..sometimes a fully loaded account will sell for 20 cents more than a non-loaded accounts..but other times, those non-loaded accounts sell for more than the loaded ones...or the price is really close.

Tracking an average just gives that...an average. But in addition to offering an average...I also offer all the Raw data I have collected (to those that wish to email me and request the information), so that you can make those comparisons yourself. Many, have already taken me up on that offer.

Frankly, I think you are assuming much more of a price variation, based upon actual credits available, and anniversary date, then there actually is, and I have the data to prove it.

 

[Robert D]

Shon, did your analysis take into account extra fees such as the difference in closing costs? Some sellers charge quite a bit extra for closing and this is nothing more than an increase in the price of the membership.

 

[Shon_t]

Shon, did your analysis take into account extra fees such as the difference in closing costs? Some sellers charge quite a bit extra for closing and this is nothing more than an increase in the price of the membership.

Yes, it did. I also include the 150 dollar transfer fee, and any maintenance fees that are charged out of pocket to the buyer.

In some cases the seller doesn't even charge the $150, they pay for it as part of the service. In others...the seller wants the buyer to pay for past due maintenance fees, which can be quite expensive.

The only account purchases that i don't track or include in "the average", is NHK accounts (No house keeping accounts), Loan assumptions, and Residence Club accounts. This is because such account purchases DO reflect prices that are way outside of the norm (1-2 dollars per credit...or .20 cents per credit on the inverse).

 

[Robert D]

Thanks. Sounds like you're comparing apples to apples on the purchase price and closing cost side. From what you describe there's a pretty big variance on the cost per point on Ebay, which is pretty common on most TS's. What is the lowest cost per point that you've seen over the past year or so? Also, I saw the thread that Wyndham no longer allows you to rent your TS, do you think that Worldmark will do the same? I think that really decreases the value of the membership because a lot of people like me rent the unit when we don't use it instead of exchanging it.

 

[Shon_t]

Thanks. Sounds like you're comparing apples to apples on the purchase price and closing cost side. From what you describe there's a pretty big variance on the cost per point on Ebay, which is pretty common on most TS's. What is the lowest cost per point that you've seen over the past year or so? Also, I saw the thread that Wyndham no longer allows you to rent your TS, do you think that Worldmark will do the same? I think that really decreases the value of the membership because a lot of people like me rent the unit when we don't use it instead of exchanging it.

I have been tracking Worldmark accounts that have sold on Ebay since May 20, 2008.

The Highest I have seen was a loaded 10k account (20k available) the anniversary date was not listed on the sale. It sold on 5/27/2008 for $8795 plus $150 transfer fee (89.4 cents per credit).

The lowest I have seen was a 12k (12k available) account with a July maturity date that sold on 12/17/2008 for $2999 plus $567 in closing costs or 29.7 cents per credit. That was actually the "buy it now" price... I have no idea why the account was listed that low.

Both the high and the low were extremes, even in the months in which they sold.

In answer to your questions about taking away the renting benefit...such a right is guaranteed in the club bylaws, so I can't see how they would have any legal standing to do so, but some people wouldn't put anything past Wyndham. Worldmark club members don't pay reservation fees, guest fees, etc., and even the account transfer fee is a modest $150 dollars.

Different club, different rules...even if it is run by the same management company.

They did put temporary rules in place to stop mass renting regarding the Whistler BC resort, home of the Winter Olympics in 2010. Due to high demand for the Olympics, they are limiting the number of owner reservations to 16 days PER OWNER (not number of accounts owned) for all affected resorts in that area, during the dates of the Olympic Games.

Some are concerned that the Worldmark Board (Staffed mostly with former Wyndham Employees) will take such temporary measures a step further, but for now, they are well within their rights.

In another attempt to compete with the resale market, the management company has started offering a "Travelshare program" (commonly referred to by Worldmark Owners as "travelshaft") that requires ownership of developer credits, in attempts do differentiate those credits from resale credits. Unfortunately, the premium cost of developer credits, plus the monthly or annual travelshare membership fees does not make such a plan sound very appealing, especially for those that know and understand how to purchase credits, or rent credits through resell outlets. The benefits just don't outweigh the costs. Plus...it is a Developer program that can be "canceled at any time".

 

[herindoors911]

I bought a WM package on eBay from Timeshare Angels last month. Super fast transfer -- from beginning to the date I received email notification of my new owners number about 3 weeks. The in-house closing agent was great at email and phone responses, always responding promptly. And I bought back when they didn't have any stated closing costs; last time I checked they've added closing costs but just take that into consideration when calculating your total bid. What I didn't like about the outfit (but none significantly enough to overcome my overall positive experience): (1) The listing stated one anniversary date but the paperwork I received (including letter from WM about the contract) was a different month. I emailed to ask if they sent the wrong paperwork. The agent said no error, but there was no apology; instead, she said she thought this anniversary month would work better for me because I'll get the 2009 points in a few months. Well, she should have asked me before she made that assumption. Good thing I didn't mind. (2) The eBay listing on my auction made it sounds as if the closing/escrow would be handled by an independent company. I suspected that was not the case and when I checked out the closing company's website I noticed it was owned by the same outfit. The subsequent email contact made that clear as well. So I went in knowing the closing agent was in house and took that into consideration; I bought from them anyway because they had great eBay feedback and a long history, so as long as I could win at my max price, it wasn't a big deal. Still I dislike the lack of honestly on this point.

I think you are okay as long as you find a eBay seller with a long history of positive experiences (and if you see a negative here and there, read the comments because there are some bad buyers out there who'd deliberately/wrongfully mess with seller's feedback ratings; and I speak from painful personal experience on that front).

There should never be a problem for anyone worrying about closing $$'s when dealing with TimeshareAngels. Their escrow is through a real estate agent and in CA, that means your money is perfectly safe.

Also, buying a resale account with an improved annivesary date is in your favour. (Although I do agree the correct date should have been provided).

 

[slabeaume]

"In answer to your questions about taking away the renting benefit...such a right is guaranteed in the club bylaws, so I can't see how they would have any legal standing to do so, but some people wouldn't put anything past Wyndham. Worldmark club members don't pay reservation fees, guest fees, etc., and even the account transfer fee is a modest $150 dollars."

I thought it has always been against WM rules to rent actual reserved weeks---although it's been done forever and how would they know if you're selling the week or giving it to someone anyway?

 

[Robert D]

The only way I've ever rented weeks (I don't own WM) is to reserve the strongest week I could and then rent it. Most times they don't rent until inside of 90 days so it seems to me if you can't rent a reserved week then WM would not be very good for rentals.