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What percentage of 884,000 Owners are VIP?

SNA27

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I was curious to find out the ownership composition. WYND 10Q reports don't give any clues, just a headache!

But their Investor relations page has some interesting info. I am glad I am all paid up for 3 lifetimes in just 3 years! :D


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ecwinch

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For a change of pace.. let’s try to stay on topic and minimize the verbal judo.
 

SNA27

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I am trying! And I am trying my level best, in spite of provocations, to not lose my cool and get banned! :)

I know for a fact that Wyndham employees are on TUGBBS and they can shed light on this composition! But, if you disparage them as shills, trolls or agents of Wyndham, you will never get them to post useful information! Wyndham has a great product, has great employees and to besmirch all of them based on anecdotal sales experience is very unfair, imo!

Hey, what happened to the judo, @ecwinch, didn't you think it was humorous repartee?;)

Btw, @ecwinch, I commend you for your concise and helpful posts! I already read from your post on the hidden RCI upgrade benefit to the VC. I am going to refer to it again when I call the again on Monday! Kudos from from a fellow IT-an! I hope you keep drilling the message 'correlation is not causation'! So obvious, yet so misunderstood!:)
 
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SNA27

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I wish reasale buyers would just enjoy their windfall and not keep indulging their schadenfreude against retail purchasers! Is that too much to ask? Think symbiosys instead of parasitism!

Based on the 10Q and the investor reports which gave me more headache than confidence, Wyndham will collapse without new retail purchase!

I hope @Fredflintstone would read the same and find reasons to cheer me up!
 
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SNA27

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This forum will be well-served if it makes itself hospitable to employees of Wyndham to contribute helpful information! The way I see it, you're scaring the horse whose mouth we would all love to glimpse! ;)
 

Sandi Bo

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Wyndham doesn't like to disclose those numbers (the VIP numbers or resale versus developer ownership numbers). That's my understanding.
 

erniecrews

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I was curious to find out the ownership composition. WYND 10Q reports don't give any clues, just a headache!

But their Investor relations page has some interesting info. I am glad I am all paid up for 3 lifetimes in just 3 years! :D


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I believe the 880000 owners includes Worldmark owners also. Was the breakdown discussed at the owners meeting"
 

HitchHiker71

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I believe the 880000 owners includes Worldmark owners also. Was the breakdown discussed at the owners meeting"
This is correct. The term “Owners” also needs to be defined as their numbers report differently depending on what is being referenced. For example, there are often multiple owners on each account, and my understanding is the 880k number counts individual owners not owner accounts, but I have not validated this yet.

That said, here’s the slide from the annual owners meeting for Club Wyndham:



As you can see, as of end of 2018 - there were roughly 422k Wyndham “members”, or less than half of the often published 880k number. Are owners and members defined differently? Words and definitions matter especially when it comes to statistics.

I’ve also directly asked two Wyndham execs independently about the number of resale owners - both said it’s around 20k total. In my conversations I got the sense this 20k is the number of resale ONLY owners, and is the actual number of owner accounts not the number of resale contracts. Even so, I find this hard to believe as it’s a small percentage of 422k.

I haven’t asked about the subset of VIP owners, but will add this to my list of questions. I would also like to know the subset of VIPS, VIPG and VIPP. More to come when I know more.


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SNA27

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When I read the 10Q reports and Investor reports and find no mention of their vaunted VIP program or the new Privileges program, it strikes me as a case of 'the dog that didn't bark'!
It's a striking and purposeful omission! Perhaps, it's nothing about which to shout from rooftops!

I plan to read the 10Q and other reports from HGVC, Marriott later today. At least HGV doesn't bury their Honors program! But their numbers are shrouded in mystery too! It's probably comparable to Wyndham Rewards rather than the WYND VIP proram. I hate all these deceptive powerpoints! A picture maybe worth a 1000 words but a powerpoint slide hides a thousand lies!:(

As @dgalati puts it, it's designed to daze and confuse!
Or, as we used to joke in my alma mater, if you can't 'dazzle them with your brilliance, just baffle them with your bs'!

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cbyrne1174

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20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.
 

HitchHiker71

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20k sounds accurate for resale. I've never come across another resale only member casually talking in a hot tub etc. I only knew Wyndham had resale before my first purchase because I was originally looking into DVC resale for short getaways. Not many people are tech savvy to the point of knowing how to look up how to do something like that properly without getting scammed.
Good point, I suppose I’m used to being here on TUG where almost everyone is a resale owner. I’m a resale and retail owner myself.


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SNA27

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This is correct. The term “Owners” also needs to be defined as their numbers report differently depending on what is being referenced. For example, there are often multiple owners on each account, and my understanding is the 880k number counts individual owners not owner accounts, but I have not validated this yet.

That said, here’s the slide from the annual owners meeting for Club Wyndham:



As you can see, as of end of 2018 - there were roughly 422k Wyndham “members”, or less than half of the often published 880k number. Are owners and members defined differently? Words and definitions matter especially when it comes to statistics.

I’ve also directly asked two Wyndham execs independently about the number of resale owners - both said it’s around 20k total. In my conversations I got the sense this 20k is the number of resale ONLY owners, and is the actual number of owner accounts not the number of resale contracts. Even so, I find this hard to believe as it’s a small percentage of 422k.

I haven’t asked about the subset of VIP owners, but will add this to my list of questions. I would also like to know the subset of VIPS, VIPG and VIPP. More to come when I know more .


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So, 'Owner' is a meaningless term. Member is the right metric. When I was reading the Investor slide, I was thinking of Owner and Member in interchangeable terms. Especially, when you see that 185K owners have a loan balance. So, that powerpoint slide contains a subterfuge. I wonder what SEC will have to say about this!

Btw, two execs quoting the same number really doesn't lend veracity to that number! Just that both read the same prep notes and talking points!:D
 
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cbyrne1174

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Good point, I suppose I’m used to being here on TUG where almost everyone is a resale owner. I’m a resale and retail owner myself.


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I think the majority of people who post on here are a mix of retail and resale. Maybe we should do a poll?
 

SNA27

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I think the majority of people who post on here are a mix of retail and resale. Maybe we should do a poll?
Also if you poll the VIP level at the same time, we can attempt to answer the question in my original post.
I hope I am not a Minority of ONE in the the subgroup VIPP with no resale!:(
 

geist1223

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Also when you add in Worldmark (about 220,000+ a little, we have lost 30k to 40k) you have to decide are you talking Owners or Accout numbers. Many Worldmark Members maintain 2 or more separate accounts.
 

CruiseGuy

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I wish reasale buyers would just enjoy their windfall and not keep indulging their schadenfreude against retail purchasers! Is that too much to ask? Think symbiosys instead of parasitism!

Based on the 10Q and the investor reports which gave me more headache than confidence, Wyndham will collapse without new retail purchase!

I hope @Fredflintstone would read the same and find reasons to cheer me up!
Well, personally I think you are misguided in pushing so hard for people to buy retail, and that you are actually doing to resale owners what you accuse them of doing to retail buyers. Most of us resale owners do pretty much keep quiet in most cases because we recognize that someone had to buy retail before we could buy resale. We don't condemn those who buy retail. And we don't go to resorts and bother people when they are with the sales people. However, buying retail rarely makes financial sense for most people. And we do feel that when someone asks questions, or comes to these forums and online groups, that we should be pointing out the resale option and making them well aware of the pitfalls of buying retail for the average person. Retail mainly makes sense only if you can afford to pay cash and don't need a loan for the purchase or something else as a result, can afford to get to VIP and have the time and flexibility to use your points in a way that you can book in the discount window and get both the discounts and upgrades to justify the retail premium over the resale cost. Otherwise it's throwing away hard earned money because you're paying more for the points than you otherwise could.

Also, with respect to one of your previous posts. You indicated that people should buy full price from Wyndham to better support the resort. Once Wyndham develops a resort and makes significant progress in selling at that resort, buying from Wyndham when resale is available does absolute zero to support that resort. Especially after the resort is mostly or totally sold, and once retail contracts become available. It is primarily the owners who are paying the maintenance fees and program fees that support the resort, not Wyndham. Buying resale often, especially prior to the last couple years when Wyndham rolled out ovations, was one of the best things that could be done to help support the resort and existing owners. Without resale, many of those resorts would have suffered greatly from people trying to get out of their contracts who could no longer make maintenance fee payments, and those who would have simply stopped and taken the credit hit because they were no longer using their points. Resale owners have done much to support the resorts and the overall program and to keep it affordable. Without resale, many of the resorts would likely have had to raise their maintenance fees greatly to cover those that would not have been paid because resale owners bought the contract and started picking up the maintenance fees. It also would have hurt Wyndham retail sales because no one would buy a contract if word got out that you couldn't even give them away. Personally I believe that resale owners have a place and have been a great benefit to Wyndham and the resorts, despite what you seem to want to try to convince people to believe. There's room and a need for both retail and resale, at least until Wyndham agrees to buy back all contracts at a reasonable price.
 
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SNA27

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Well, personally I think you are misguided in pushing so hard for people to buy retail, and that you are actually doing to resale owners what you accuse them of doing to retail buyers. Most of us resale owners do pretty much keep quiet in most cases because we recognize that someone had to buy retail before we could buy resale. We don't condemn those who buy retail. And we don't go to resorts and bother people when they are with the sales people. However, buying retail rarely makes financial sense for most people. And we do feel that when someone asks questions, or comes to these forums and online groups, that we should be pointing out the resale option and making them well aware of the pitfalls of buying retail for the average person. Retail mainly makes sense only if you can afford to pay cash and don't need a loan for the purchase or something else as a result, can afford to get to VIP and have the time and flexibility to use your points in a way that you can book in the discount window and get both the discounts and upgrades to justify the retail premium over the resale cost. Otherwise it's throwing away hard earned money because you're paying more for the points than you otherwise could.

Also, with respect to one of your previous posts. You indicated that people should buy full price from Wyndham to better support the resort. Once Wyndham develops a resort and makes significant progress in selling at that resort, buying from Wyndham when resale is available does absolute zero to support that resort. Especially after the resort is mostly or totally sold, and once retail contracts become available. It is primarily the owners who are paying the maintenance fees and program fees that support the resort, not Wyndham. Buying resale often, especially prior to the last couple years when Wyndham rolled out ovations, was one of the best things that could be done to help support the resort and existing owners. Without resale, many of those resorts would have suffered greatly from people trying to get out of their contracts who could no longer make maintenance fee payments, and those who would have simply stopped and taken the credit hit because they were no longer using their points. Resale owners have done much to support the resorts and the overall program and to keep it affordable. Without resale, many of the resorts would likely have had to raise their maintenance fees greatly to cover those that would not have been paid because resale owners bought the contract and started picking up the maintenance fees. It also would have hurt Wyndham retail sales because no one would buy a contract if word got out that you couldn't even give them away. Personally I believe that resale owners have a place and have been a great benefit to Wyndham and the resorts, despite what you seem to want to try to convince people to believe. There's room and a need for both retail and resale, at least until Wyndham agrees to buy back all contracts at a reasonable price.
Thank you for a thoughtful post! Here's what I had said about the importance of resale in another thread. Wyndham cannot grow without retail purchasers!

Your cup is half-full, not half-empty! You get everything a NON-VIP retail purchaser gets! And even pay a lower program fee!
I thought Plus-Perks is open to all with an annual membership fee! It's free for me now but I have never used it because it's not that useful!
Wyndham Club Pass: I hate the idea of calling and finding out there is no availability. I hope they go to online self-service with everything! I don't like the $99 fee either.
USA Today is a Perk? Funny! I would rather get the local newspaper, if at all!

@Braindead started this 'What would King of Wyndham do?' subtopic. I'm paraphrasing him using your question, obviously! Maybe it should be a thread on its own.

It's all about supply vs. demand. Resale buyers play an important part in Capacity Utilization and pay the MF for the upkeep. Without them, defaults will increase and the rest of the owners will have to make up the shortfall one way or the other. @Braindead's suggestion of treating them as 'undesirables' may not pass legal muster. For example, in a condo complex, an identical unit may have sold for a range of prices over the years. Do you deny pool privileges to the owner who bought cheaply?

All my deeds are governed by HOA rules but I haven't read the actual verbiage which entitles me access to Club Wyndham Pass and the internal exchange. Again, if you limit CWP access to resale buyers, nobody would buy them since resale buyers are buying the deed mainly for access to CWP.

Maybe, they can charge resale owners higher fees for all kinds of services (Title transfer, reservations, GCs, etc.) and give retail purchasers lower fees. Ok, don't beat me up on this? I have no idea if it would be even legal. But I bet they can and do all kinds of things in their Voyager system unbeknownst to us. When I was Temp Silver with CWA in 2017 or Gold in early 2018 with GD deed, the availability calendar used to be a lot grayer than it's now as a permanent VIP-P! I would love to get a peek into the internals of that system. I don't think we all have equal access to availability even in the Standard window.

The hospitality business is a tough business and I have no idea about their business model. I would like to think Wyndham knows a lot more about these complex issues than me or even a businessman like @Braindead!
 

cbyrne1174

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Also when you add in Worldmark (about 220,000+ a little, we have lost 30k to 40k) you have to decide are you talking Owners or Accout numbers. Many Worldmark Members maintain 2 or more separate accounts.
"Members" also means how many people are on the deed. Since my husband isn't on any of my deeds, he's not a "member" so my membership only counts as 1, but most people include their spouses and adult children to increase that number.
 

geist1223

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Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass. In Wyndham can you maintain the different Points you have bought in totally separate Accounts? You have that option in Worldmark. This gives you more options on the Waitlist, Bonus Time, Inventory Specials, etc. Also possibly more House Keeping Credits and more Guest Certificates.
 

SNA27

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Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass. In Wyndham can you maintain the different Points you have bought in totally separate Accounts? You have that option in Worldmark. This gives you more options on the Waitlist, Bonus Time, Inventory Specials, etc. Also possibly more House Keeping Credits and more Guest Certificates.

WAITLIST? What's that? I always wanted that feature in Wyndham! You mean to say, Worldmark was/is more advanced than Wyndham? But Worldmark properties are not as good as Wyndhams' though! When we went to Kona in July 2018, I first drove into Worldmark, an ugly looking place, thinking that was our resort! But I was politely and apologetically directed to a more beautiful resort further down the road! Night and day!
 

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Wyndham also has a way of twisting numbers. Wyndham says every Worldmark Member is a Member of Club Pass. But only Worldmark Members that have Points that are WM+A or WTS can use Club Pass.
This is not "twisting numbers." This was simply to avoid creating two classes of members, in violation of California corporate law.

Cue: @ecwinch
 
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