What do you think the average annual income for DVC owners is?

[cbyrne1174]

With these developer prices, I fail to see how a family of 4 with both parents making 50k each a year could reasonably afford these buy in costs. I live near Disney and I would honestly say my husband and I together make well above average for both Tampa and Orlando, yet I can't afford these prices unless I put literally ALL my Non essential spending into paying it off over 1-2 years. Also, I'm just talking about getting a resale contract for 200 points SSR at 95pp, let alone 160pp developer.

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

Half the 16 year olds that I teach in Tampa fl have never even been to Disney because of this. The class distribution is so disproportional for the area too. 3 out of every 5 kids get free lunch within a 100 mile radius of WDW. It feels like its turning into the "Dubai" of the United states.

 

[TravelTime]

This is problem in the Orlando area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Florida_Project

OTOH, this is a problem in places like Mexico too. There are often two economies in tourist areas.

 

[pedro47]

The meridian income for Orlando, Fl is right under $50,000 per year.
The State of Florida meridian income was $64, 000 according to the Census ACS survey dated for 2018. I am personally surprised at this low figure.

 

[pedro47]

To the OP, your thread has caused me to do some research. Thank you.
I am blessed.

 

[ljmiii]

With these developer prices, I fail to see how a family of 4 with both parents making 50k each a year could reasonably afford these buy in costs...

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

Going to Disneyworld, staying on property, and owning a piece of the mouse are three very different things.

When I was a young lad getting to go to Disneyworld was something of an unobtainable dream. I got to go once and was enchanted with it all - but one of my strongest memories was the magic of a hotel that had a Monorail that went *through* it. We of course stayed off property and ate as inexpensively as we could. Today at around $100 a day plus the price of onsite food and a cheapish off property hotel WDW seems more or less comparable to what it was when I grew up - a once a decade-ish splurge for the lower middle class.

Staying on property is a different kettle of fish - my mind boggles whenever I look at the prices Disney currently wants for a hotel room much less for a 1 or 2BR villa. It never occurred to me that a 'normal' person would or could ever stay at the Contemporary Hotel back then...and that still holds true. But Disney has added 'value resorts that make staying 'on property' more obtainable for much of the middle class.

As for owning DVC, it is a luxury that means different things to different people. To those who are asset rich but income poor it allows them to stay 'on property' when otherwise they could not. To those with lots of disposable income it is a pleasant way to ensure their regular vacations at WDW are enjoyable and care free. To some of the middle class it can be a trap into which they convince themselves to buy - but when they face the reality of usurious interest payments and ever increasing maintenance fees they are then forced to sell. And to those in the lower middle class DVC ownership is indeed an unobtainable dream.

 

[Dean]

With these developer prices, I fail to see how a family of 4 with both parents making 50k each a year could reasonably afford these buy in costs. I live near Disney and I would honestly say my husband and I together make well above average for both Tampa and Orlando, yet I can't afford these prices unless I put literally ALL my Non essential spending into paying it off over 1-2 years. Also, I'm just talking about getting a resale contract for 200 points SSR at 95pp, let alone 160pp developer.

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

Half the 16 year olds that I teach in Tampa fl have never even been to Disney because of this. The class distribution is so disproportional for the area too. 3 out of every 5 kids get free lunch within a 100 mile radius of WDW. It feels like its turning into the "Dubai" of the United states.

As noted, going to WDW is expensive, staying on property even more so. Living in FL with the special tickets and staying off property it can be workable for many people. But most can have opportunities if they plan and are intentional though in today's world both of those requirements are in short supply. You mentioned your income which is approaching double the US average. IIRC DVC lists a minimum of $75K to do the tour but I don't think they enforce it. DVC is not the savings it once was and it lends itself to costing more than just paying OOP, esp with the FL resident specials on rooms as well. But there are ways to save a lot of money if one pays attention. Resale can still be a lot cheaper and living in FL you have the best perk independently, access to the Gold pass at a discount. A timeshare is a large and long term commitment. Personally I don't think people should buy a luxury item unless they can pay cash and preferably, have no consumer debt at all.

One can always rent to take advantage of DVC without owning and/or to get experience with the system to make a better long term decision. There are also other timeshares that could be helpful in this situation though they are no on property though a couple are VERY close. And often those would give better non WDW opportunities for other travel options.

 

[littlestar]

We have friends that bought direct from Disney and only bought 50 points. And a niece of mine bought 100 points. So not everyone buys 200 points or more. We use our DVC points to add a few days on property when we come to Orlando - as we normally stay at Marriott Vacation Club resorts in Orlando for around $450 for the week in a 2 bedroom on an Interval International cash Getaway. For a 9 day trip, staying a few days on Disney property and then staying in a big plush Marriott Vacation Club unit is perfect. Having access to Interval International’s cash deals is why I bought a dual affiliated timeshare to go along with our DVC points.

We initially bought 150 DVC points from Disney back in 2002 for $75 a point and financed it for about 18 months (paid it off early). If I was a Florida resident, I would probably downsize our DVC points to under 100 points because of the discounts on rooms and tickets for Florida residents. MouseSavers.com keeps track of Florida resident deals.

I watch the disboards’ resort board and a lot of people over there chase Disney cash deals and find some great prices on rooms - $95 a night for Port Orleans French Quarter on Priceline Express Deals (and even Animal Kingdom villas studios for $164 a night).

There are a lot of ways to get deals on Disney rooms and it does not have to include buying a bunch of DVC points. I actually enjoy the hunt for a cash deal.

 

[Pathways]

Half the 16 year olds that I teach in Tampa fl have never even been to Disney because of this

Sorry, I don't see this as an issue. Six flags is the closest park to my area, is much cheaper than WDW, and I guarantee less than half my kid's friends have ever been there. Probably 5-10% have ever been to WDW.

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

My first two trips to WDW were when I was 18 and 20. (My parents never would have spent their money towards taking the kids there). I stayed at a Motel 6 the first time and upgraded to a Comfort Inn the second. That was luxury to me. I don't think Disney was ever a 'middle class' vacation. I agree with ljmiii and would extend that 'once in ten years visit' to the 'middle' middle class also.

With these developer prices, I fail to see how a family of 4 with both parents making 50k each a year could reasonably afford these buy in costs. I live near Disney and I would honestly say my husband and I together make well above average for both Tampa and Orlando, yet I can't afford these prices unless I put literally ALL my Non essential spending into paying it off over 1-2 years. Also, I'm just talking about getting a resale contract for 200 points SSR at 95pp, let alone 160pp developer.

Not only can a fam of 4 making 100K not 'reasonably afford these buy in costs', but in general I would say they shouldn't purchase ANY timeshare. I understand there are huge differences in cost of living from state to state, but I don't see how a family income of only 100K with 2 kids could ever have that kind of cash left over after paying taxes, standard housing and transportation expenses, paying for two kids, and fully funding a retirement plan. And for that family to obligate themselves to an annual maintenance fee payment is just crazy.

If someone in that situation has lived frugally, is debt free, and budgets enough in their 'luxury' account to go to WDW every so often, I say 'congrats' to them!

 

[Lisa P]

Sorry, I don't see this as an issue. Six flags is the closest park to my area, is much cheaper than WDW, and I guarantee less than half my kid's friends have ever been there. Probably 5-10% have ever been to WDW.

I agree! A generation or two ago, it seemed most middle class families either didn't vacation at all or they vacationed by visiting relatives, camping, or taking moderately priced road trips and staying in inexpensive motels. It's not that long ago that middle class families who were able to take expensive vacations (WDW, ski weeks, Caribbean, Europe) were the exception rather than the expectation.

Growing up after color TVs were in every home, and then the internet, children are now regularly shown the glossy marketing of costly vacations and amusements. It fuels a greater desire to experience these things and a greater sense that they are missing out on something if they don't get to go. IMO, it even fosters an expectation that everyone "should" be able to do these things. Frugality, emergency savings, and retirement planning are less valued than fulfilling the "now" opportunity. Again, JMO.

If [a fam of 4 making 100K] has lived frugally, is debt free, and budgets enough in their 'luxury' account to go to WDW every so often, I say 'congrats' to them!

Our middle class family of 5 (sometimes more with foster kids, exchange students, or friends of our kids) fit this description and so do many others we know - in the past. It really is changing.

When we did it, it wasn't with DVC. Though we could afford our 150 points while living frugally debt free, we sold it. At the same cost as squeezing our family into a DVC BWV studio, we could enjoy an offsite resort (resale) 2BR, bring along an extra person, plus buy park passes (10-day non-expiring, which we split between 3 trips) - no comparison in value. Only a couple years ago, this was still doable, and we exchanged into a couple DVC 2BRs for group trips! It has changed in the last few years.

Non-expiring passes - gone.
Price of a 5-7 day pass - increased a lot.
Parking fee - more than doubled.
Ability to exchange into 2BRs onsite - gone.
Resort fee per DVC room exchange - increased.
Price of a DVC purchase (both developer and resale) - increased a lot.

As we and our adult kids anticipate bringing our grandchildren to WDW, we are very thankful that our adult kids have higher-paying professions than we do. More than the increased price of DVC, the increased price of park passes is what will keep more middle class families away (or reduce the frequency of visits) IMO. It's not an entitlement to vacation or to visit a theme park. I still believe that wonderful family vacations can be more affordable with resale timeshares. But for many middle class people, they may not be at WDW.

 

[chalee94]

Also, I'm just talking about getting a resale contract for 200 points SSR at 95pp, let alone 160pp developer.

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

I'm in the group that stayed at cheaper motels near Disney when they were younger (my parents were lower middle class) - the notion that Disney is pricing out the middle class because everyone can't afford an annual week in a 1BR villa with 900 sq ft on property is a little silly.

When I was in my 20s, staying at the Days Inn was fine - I expected that it might take time to build to paying for the nicer options. I can afford more now but make do with a small OKW contract that cost less than $4,000 in 2006. Stunning offsite 2BR timeshares near WDW are available for less than $100 per night - sometimes only $250-300 for the week. I can afford whatever I want, but my competing budget items (housing, vacations, retirement planning, and so on) still mean that I can't afford *everything* I want.

 

[chriskre]

With these developer prices, I fail to see how a family of 4 with both parents making 50k each a year could reasonably afford these buy in costs. I live near Disney and I would honestly say my husband and I together make well above average for both Tampa and Orlando, yet I can't afford these prices unless I put literally ALL my Non essential spending into paying it off over 1-2 years. Also, I'm just talking about getting a resale contract for 200 points SSR at 95pp, let alone 160pp developer.

Is it because I'm only 29, so I don't have a lot of assets? Am I just really crappy at budgeting? Or is disney seriously getting to the point of pricing out the middle class?

Half the 16 year olds that I teach in Tampa fl have never even been to Disney because of this. The class distribution is so disproportional for the area too. 3 out of every 5 kids get free lunch within a 100 mile radius of WDW. It feels like its turning into the "Dubai" of the United states.

I live in FL and bought my DVC when my income was higher while working
and met the 75K threshold that Disney looks for.
I did do an add-on after I retired at Poly though when my income dropped.

I think Disney doesn't care if you can afford to vacation a little
or a lot as long as you can make the payments. They try to sell you on the
studios even if you are a family of 5.
Borrowing and Banking a small "affordable" contract still gets you into the game
and their easy financing makes it even easier.

When you do a tour there they really amp up the pixie dust so I can see why
people would sign up even if they really shouldn't. Most people aren't doing
the math beyond listening to the spiel. They break it down to the ridiculous
so to speak so it seems like for only $199 you can vacation for the rest of
your life in a Disney deluxe resort. When you see that Disney charges
$600 for a studio you can see how it's an easy sell. When I purchased my
DVC I was staying in Coronado Springs. The DVC units were costing the
same as a mid-level resort so it was very appealing.

I am now to the point where I do every other year trips even with getting a
Monday-Friday FL resident pass. I bank and borrow and rent out the leftover
points to subsidize my own trips. I think as FL residents owning DVC can be
an affordable vacation if you want to go to Disney. I had been to Disney
probably 100 times in my life prior to purchasing DVC and knew I wanted
to continue to go to Disney into my retirement years and definitely only
stay on property at a Deluxe resort. It makes the whole handicap friendly
thing just so much easier.
Knowing you can resell it for about what you paid also helps in the decision
to buy, unlike most timeshares.

Sadly Disney doesn't care who can afford to come to the parks/resorts or not.
If people keep paying the inflated prices then they will keep inflating them.
I don't think this keeps with Walt's dream but he's long gone and Disney is
now just a business, churning out profits for their machine.
I once heard Michael Eisner say that they will keep raising the prices until
the people stop coming. Disney has no shame, they seem to be marching
on long after Eisner has left with the same mantra.

 

[Pathways]

I once heard Michael Eisner say that they will keep raising the prices until
the people stop coming.

WDW has NO competition. Sea World? Universal? Not even close. It's really simple math. They need a certain number of dollars to run the parks, do maintenance, plan and build improvements, and have a return. Fewer visitors paying a higher price means less wear/tear and fewer employees needed.

Why not keep raising the price? I used to visit in the 'off' season and could ride on every single ride in one park in one day. (still have leftover park hopper tickets - 3 parks, 3 days needed, then 4 parks, 4 days needed). There is no real 'off' season now. I need at least 2 days/park to hit all the rides (short of staying there from 9am until 10pm in lines) which costs me twice as much.

I would rather pay twice as much for my ticket, have shorter lines, and only spend one day/park.

The trick is knowing the tipping point where the price gets so high the gross $/day starts dropping. Their new dynamic pricing is designed to predict just that point.

 

[Dean]

Not only can a fam of 4 making 100K not 'reasonably afford these buy in costs', but in general I would say they shouldn't purchase ANY timeshare. I understand there are huge differences in cost of living from state to state, but I don't see how a family income of only 100K with 2 kids could ever have that kind of cash left over after paying taxes, standard housing and transportation expenses, paying for two kids, and fully funding a retirement plan. And for that family to obligate themselves to an annual maintenance fee payment is just crazy.

If someone in that situation has lived frugally, is debt free, and budgets enough in their 'luxury' account to go to WDW every so often, I say 'congrats' to them!

While I think there is a lot of truth to your post, I suspect the average household income for DVC is under $100K. And I do think that it isn't difficult for one to own DVC appropriately making $100K for most people. Now you likely can't live in the highest cost areas and do so but Tampa is a relatively inexpensive area of the country to live in and for the metro areas, one of the cheaper in FL. I'd say almost anyone living in the Tampa area with $100K income would have the ability to buy DVC if it was important to them but they might have to plan and save to do so.

Sadly Disney doesn't care who can afford to come to the parks/resorts or not.
If people keep paying the inflated prices then they will keep inflating them.
I don't think this keeps with Walt's dream but he's long gone and Disney is
now just a business, churning out profits for their machine.
I once heard Michael Eisner say that they will keep raising the prices until
the people stop coming. Disney has no shame, they seem to be marching
on long after Eisner has left with the same mantra.

The reason for the income cutoff is so they don't waste their time. It's their job to sell, yours and mine to make decisions for our own situation. So I don't see this as a responsibility for Disney. In reality if timeshares only sold to those that could afford it and it made sense, there would be absolutely NO timeshares anywhere ever.

 

[bnoble]

Non-expiring passes - gone.
Price of a 5-7 day pass - increased a lot.
Parking fee - more than doubled.

Of course, these have all happened while Disney has maintained or increased domestic attendance, and increased domestic per-capita revenue. That latter number is important: even if the same number of people enter the gates next year as this year, if they each pay a little more to do so, that's a win for the Mouse. There are lots of paths to growth, and more guests isn't the only one.

Disney has taken several steps in the past 3-5 years to essentially cut off the "value" end of their attendance profile, and replace those folks with higher-margin guests. The sharp increase in theme park add-ons (After Hours, Magic Mornings, etc.) that exceed the per-day cost of the dearly departed 10-day No-expire ticket is good evidence of this.

This is also in the context in which for many in the Eastern half of the US, a Disney vacation is essentially a rite of passage for kids of a certain age. So, families on the bottom half of the income range may save for a long time---in some cases years---for a single offsite bare-bones trip just to have the experience of it.

Honestly, it's pure genius: somehow Disney has managed to create a product that is simultaneously aspirational and mass-market.

 

[vacationhopeful]

My youngest sibling has 3 boys. I know the youngest has been to Disney because I took him his first year of Middle School (aka it was a reward for GOING TO SCHOOL). I basicly have taken all 3 boys to Ft Lauderdale several times over the year. But only the one nephew to WDW. I did take a sister after her husband died. (OK, I had to find things my sister NEVER did with her now dead husband .. first trip, she had issues and flew home early; second trip, was for Fall Food & Wine Festival ... "what dead husband?").

I graduated from college just about an hour NORTH of WDW ... WDW opened when I was a college sophmore. And I am a small points DVC owner (resale before the lost of benefits to resale owners). I watched Walt's Wonderful World of Disney on Sunday nights as a kid.

My NJ High School senior year trips used to be to Washington, DC. But WDW displaced the DC class trips decades ago.

I brought 90 DVC points (resale) just before the lost of 'benefits' to resale owners (thks, TUG). I do a trip every few years by combining/borrowing points and add on to offsite resorts stays. Usually taking a relative with me. And some years, I place my DVC points with a broker to rent.

 

[cbyrne1174]

I guess the prices are on par with other timeshare systems. I just calculated the retail price of my Wyndham resale ownership and it was over $100,000. I probably spent close to $1,000 for my contracts resale, but they already had points fully loaded on them. Someone paid the retail price for those points at some point. I guess I'm just not feeling it because it wasn't out of my pocket. The cost of living and is really cheap for WDW area. A family of 4 can live off $40k if they are debt free and own their home easily.

 

[bizaro86]

A family of 4 can live off $40k if they are debt free and own their home easily.

That's true lots of places, as one of the biggest differences in cost of living is housing cost. However, not too many people who have consistently had family incomes of sub 40k (current dollars) are likely to own paid off houses.

 

[cbyrne1174]

I personally might just be frugal and buy a 200 point resale contract and finance it. It just sucks living that way after having to do it as a young adult. Using an amortization calculator, I would make enough rental profit from the 200 points using Redweek to cover the interest if I bought and rented out the first year while I paid off the $20,000 purchase. I also could generate an extra $2500 easily from my Wyndham ownership of I don't use it that year.

The good thing about Disney's high prices is that it is super easy to rent out Bonnet Creek with a 200% mark up lol.

Also, Orlando's demographics are completely different from when you step in WDW. The difference in racial distribution is insane.

 

[Steve Fatula]

That's true lots of places, as one of the biggest differences in cost of living is housing cost. However, not too many people who have consistently had family incomes of sub 40k (current dollars) are likely to own paid off houses.

My sister does. We are a family of cheapskates.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Also, Orlando's demographics are completely different from when you step in WDW. The difference in racial distribution is insane.

The people going are visiting a cathedral to a RODENT

Maybe some people don't like rodents / Maybe Eddie Murphy should have mentioned this in one of his classic HBO stand up comedy specials .
He certainly clued me into haunted house demographics in his Amityville Horror routine (1979 movie) .
<google -& watch on youtube >

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

My sister does. We are a family of cheapskates.

FRUGAL
My wife is 3rd generation (Scottish background) Canadian .

FRUGAL .

*****
old joke - what is the last thing a Scotsman takes when they move .
answer - the wallpaper .

Cheap means low value - has to be replaced often / Frugal is buying a good winter wool coat and using it for 30 plus winters .

 

[bnoble]

The difference in racial distribution is insane.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[cbyrne1174]

What does this have to do with anything?

FL is 33%/33%/33% but it doesn't look anywhere near that when you step in the gates.

 

[chriskre]

The reason for the income cutoff is so they don't waste their time. It's their job to sell, yours and mine to make decisions for our own situation. So I don't see this as a responsibility for Disney. In reality if timeshares only sold to those that could afford it and it made sense, there would be absolutely NO timeshares anywhere ever.

I agree that there would be no timeshares anyway and I do agree that
Disney isn't responsible for people's decisions, I just think this new
game that Disney plays would not sit well with Walt's ideals. Not that
anyone at Disney cares any more how he would have done things.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think he wanted a place where ALL could afford to
visit. Why else would they have built a campground next to the Contemporary
and Polynesian?

Maybe the campground is next on the chopping block, might as well go all the way.

 

[Dean]

I agree that there would be no timeshares anyway and I do agree that
Disney isn't responsible for people's decisions, I just think this new
game that Disney plays would not sit well with Walt's ideals. Not that
anyone at Disney cares any more how he would have done things.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think he wanted a place where ALL could afford to
visit. Why else would they have built a campground next to the Contemporary
and Polynesian?

Maybe the campground is next on the chopping block, might as well go all the way.

I doubt any of us know what Walt would have done in a given situation but the reality is that Disney is a business and the only way to make it cheap is to be cheap and cut corners. There are plans for a DVC at FW that presumably will eliminate the BBQ.