What do MVC owners think of Abound?

[ocdb8r]

You also have to consider that a possibly significant portion of their corporate rental revenue (the 15% in the first slide above) may not come from the timeshare inventory they own. They also generate rental income through Interval International (Getaways and other affiliate rental programs that Interval has with business partners and affinity groups) and through MVW's ownership of Aqua-Aston Hospitality that manages 27 resort hotel properties, many in Hawaii, including some Marriott and Hilton resort hotels. I do need to note that I'm not 100% sure whether that rental revenue is accounted for as a part of Management and Exchange EBITDA (the 36% in slide #1) or is consolidated into the Rental category along with rental of VOIs. That info may be broken out in their annual 10-K, but I haven't tried to dig through those numbers to find out. I'm already spending way too much time on this conversation!

I think most of the CCRs/bylaws also permit them to rent last minute inventory (for Lagunamar it's any inventory not used closer to 60 days within checking) at varying rates of reimbursement to the association (basically they get a big cut of whatever they are able to rent). While 60 days out is "last minute" for timeshare people, it's probably a sweet spot timing wise for people looking to pay cash. I make no judgment about how "fair" this arrangement is or is not....but it's been in the underlying docs for most resorts for years.

 

[Dean]

We must look at the existing rules, not just at what is convenient for the developer and what suits their business model. A simple principle is that new rules cannot conflict with the existing ones. If they do not like the existing rules, they can go through the regular processes and change them. If they can’t even do that when they are building a new program, I do not see how they can ask anyone for trust, especially knowing what is happening in the sales meetings. Sales, inventory management, their own rentals, exchange services are all in the hands the same company.

The rules are in place to protect owners (the little protection we have left). No, it is not normal to base the inventory on “demand” if that conflicts with other rules, but they can “anticipate” all the demand they want when the home resort reservation period ends.

To come to a reasonable opinion we'd have to look at the entire set of rules, not just was was pulled out. As I noted, I would strongly suspect that those say that reservations are within their control without input. What you've posted doesn't preclude the vicarious reservation by the system when one of those owners abdicates their ownership to Abound, as I read what you've posted. I assume that my understanding of your position is accurate since you did not dispute it. The truth is that from a practical standpoint, your position doesn't make sense there either to say those weeks in question just have to sit there.

Looking at rentals by the system, this is a delicate balance. Those who feel the system should not rent or should be very limited, are essentially saying they feel the system should not offer cash type options, like cruises or to pay for travel insurance. That's because this is how they pay for those services.

Regardless of all of that, what do YOU intend to do as this moves forward. Complaining here or similar places ongoing makes no sense. You've stated your position though most of us don't agree with it. Have you contacted the GM of the resort, BOD, MVC corporate? Have you hired a lawyer? If not, and you're not actually doing anything about your position, why are you giving them control over your emotions for something that's going to make no real difference in the end anyway.

 

[timsi]

Please stop just making things up. The fact you put this in quotation marks (as if it is a direct quotation from the "rules:") and BOLDED a word that does not exist in the Lagunamar bylaws just proves how totally out of control you are with these arguments. I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously when you repeatedly make it clear you have no interest in a balanced and honest discussion of what the actual words written actually mean.

I know I'm wasting my breath here. You will do as you have continued to do for months....find another thread to post the SAME tired arguments or start a new one when people get too bored to even bother reading or responding.

Have you checked the compete kit you have from Lagunamar? I bolded again the word "own" as it can be found on page 332.

"4.2.1 Required Reservation Periods.
There must be at least one “Home
Reservation Period”. The Home Reservation Period must permit a VOI Owner to
request a reservation, without competition from anyone who does not own a
Vacation Ownership Interest for a Vacation Unit that is the same type and
season as the VOI Owner’s unit type and season provided that nobody else has
reserved the Vacation Period and that no other persons have the exclusive right
to reserve the Vacation Period.
Member Information Page 332"

You are correct if you say that page 332 is not part of the Bylaws that end at page 45 but it should confirm what you should already know about the resort owners and the HRRP. The Bylaws mention you have to have the VOIs assigned to you and the assignment process is pretty clear. You are really spitting against the wind if you are trying to say the members/owners do not own the Vacation Ownership Interests. The VOIs give you exclusive rights during the HRRP and the right to vote. You make a confusion between the Vacation Ownership Interests (that belong to owners/members) and the right to book a week which is a right that you can transmit when you exchange.

"ARTICLE THIRTEEN THE PLAN RESERVATION SYSTEM
13.1. Reservation Windows.
(a) Required Reservation Periods. There must be at least one “Home Resort
Reservation Period.” The Home Resort Reservation Period must permit a Member to request a
reservation, without competition from anyone who is not assigned a Vacation Ownership
Interest in a Vacation Unit that is the same Unit Type as the Member’s Unit Type and for any
Vacation Period in the same Season as the Member’s Vacation Week"

And it is not like the Bylaws do not mention who owns the VOIs and the bylaws use "assigned to" and "owned by" interchangeably.

"(a) “Class A Members” shall be all Members except the Class B Member.
Each Annual Vacation Ownership Interest owned by a Class A Member has two (2) votes in
matters subject to a vote of Members. Each Biennial Vacation Ownership Interest assigned to a
Class A Member has one (1) vote."

@TravelTime

 

[Dean]

I think most of the CCRs/bylaws also permit them to rent last minute inventory (for Lagunamar it's any inventory not used closer to 60 days within checking) at varying rates of reimbursement to the association (basically they get a big cut of whatever they are able to rent). While 60 days out is "last minute" for timeshare people, it's probably a sweet spot timing wise for people looking to pay cash. I make no judgment about how "fair" this arrangement is or is not....but it's been in the underlying docs for most resorts for years.

Most systems also allow for such inventory to be anticipated as well.

 

[SueDonJ]

So much of @timsi's angst about developer/manager rentals and reservation rights is just regurgitated pablum that we Marriott owners already dissected to death in the speculation threads prior to the Destination Club rollout on 6/20/10 and in various threads since then. I get it, it's scary to be facing something new and some people naturally face that fear by presenting 'what-ifs' as if they're foregone conclusions. Nothing wrong with anticipating the worst along with the best - and everything in-between! - but I honestly don't understand why there's an expectation that the worst is exactly what Marriott will do when Vistana is finally fully-integrated with the DC/Abound program. We Marriott owners have a 12-year working experience with the DC/Abound that substantiates our claims that neither the worst nor the best of our expectations have come to fruition, and there certainly hasn't been any blatant mismanagement by Marriott. And quite frankly, it's insulting to be repeatedly told that we don't know enough about what we own and how it works in conjunction with the rights that Marriott holds.

As a moderator I am also seeing all these posts that are supposedly singular to the Vistana Lagunamar resort all over both the Marriott and Vistana TUG forums, and it's time to end all the duplicate posts/threads. From this point forward please keep the topic to this one thread on the Vistana forum:

How strong is the exclusive right of the Lagunamar owners to compete for the entire inventory during the Home Resort Reservation Period?

It would take days to winnow out all of the related posts and move them to that one thread, so please just stop posting in any others and use that thread to continue the discussion if you're so inclined. In the interim I'll be deleting posts and/or locking threads on the Marriott forum if the topic continues to be raised in them, and I'm tagging @DeniseM in this post so that she can decide whether or not to do the same in the Vistana forum.

 

[CPNY]

So much of @timsi's angst about developer/manager rentals and reservation rights is just regurgitated pablum that we Marriott owners already dissected to death in the speculation threads prior to the Destination Club rollout on 6/20/10 and in various threads since then. I get it, it's scary to be facing something new and some people naturally face that fear by presenting 'what-ifs' as if they're foregone conclusions. Nothing wrong with anticipating the worst along with the best - and everything in-between! - but I honestly don't understand why there's an expectation that the worst is exactly what Marriott will do when Vistana is finally fully-integrated with the DC/Abound program. We Marriott owners have a 12-year working experience with the DC/Abound that substantiates our claims that neither the worst nor the best of our expectations have come to fruition, and there certainly hasn't been any blatant mismanagement by Marriott. And quite frankly, it's insulting to be repeatedly told that we don't know enough about what we own and how it works in conjunction with the rights that Marriott holds.

As a moderator I am also seeing all these posts that are supposedly singular to the Vistana Lagunamar resort all over both the Marriott and Vistana TUG forums, and it's time to end all the duplicate posts/threads. From this point forward please keep the topic to this one thread on the Vistana forum:

How strong is the exclusive right of the Lagunamar owners to compete for the entire inventory during the Home Resort Reservation Period?

It would take days to winnow out all of the related posts and move them to that one thread, so please just stop posting in any others and use that thread to continue the discussion if you're so inclined. In the interim I'll be locking threads on the Marriott forum if the topic continues to be raised in them, and I'm tagging @DeniseM in this post so that she can decide whether or not to do the same in the Vistana forum.

So getting back to the original question….. What do MVC owners think about Abound? Lol

 

[SueDonJ]

So getting back to the original question….. What do MVC owners think about Abound? Lol

I love it! Whatever Marriott is doing they should continue because the DC/Abound has given me far more exchange value for my owned Weeks than Interval Int'l ever did!

 

[timsi]

So much of @timsi's angst about developer/manager rentals and reservation rights is just regurgitated pablum that we Marriott owners already dissected to death in the speculation threads prior to the Destination Club rollout on 6/20/10 and in various threads since then. I get it, it's scary to be facing something new and some people naturally face that fear by presenting 'what-ifs' as if they're foregone conclusions. Nothing wrong with anticipating the worst along with the best - and everything in-between! - but I honestly don't understand why there's an expectation that the worst is exactly what Marriott will do when Vistana is finally fully-integrated with the DC/Abound program. We Marriott owners have a 12-year working experience with the DC/Abound that substantiates our claims that neither the worst nor the best of our expectations have come to fruition, and there certainly hasn't been any blatant mismanagement by Marriott. And quite frankly, it's insulting to be repeatedly told that we don't know enough about what we own and how it works in conjunction with the rights that Marriott holds.

As a moderator I am also seeing all these posts that are supposedly singular to the Vistana Lagunamar resort all over both the Marriott and Vistana TUG forums, and it's time to end all the duplicate posts/threads. From this point forward please keep the topic to this one thread on the Vistana forum:

How strong is the exclusive right of the Lagunamar owners to compete for the entire inventory during the Home Resort Reservation Period?

It would take days to winnow out all of the related posts and move them to that one thread, so please just stop posting in any others and use that thread to continue the discussion if you're so inclined. In the interim I'll be locking threads on the Marriott forum if the topic continues to be raised in them, and I'm tagging @DeniseM in this post so that she can decide whether or not to do the same in the Vistana forum.

One resort impacts all resorts in Abound, not to mention others may find similar language at the resorts they own. I actually went back to the 2010 Marriott threads myself and I could not find any reference to existing resort rules that could protect the Marriott week owners. The Marriott owners have to come to the realization that Vistana is different and that they are trying to build Abound on rules that are very different than your rules.

 

[timsi]

So getting back to the original question….. What do MVC owners think about Abound? Lol

What Abound? Are we there yet?

 

[CPNY]

I love it! Whatever Marriott is doing they should continue because the DC/Abound has given me far more exchange value for my owned Weeks than Interval Int'l ever did!

I’m new to using interval since joining TUG. I’ve scored some really nice exchanges into Marriotts and Vistana units.

As a VSN owner I am looking forward to adding a few nights in STT at the Ritz to any WSJ week I can get in the VSN or just booked Ritz in STT for the week. I also hope some long last minute weekends are available via points for Beachplace towers and Lakeshore reserve.

Another benefit will be converting to Club Points, then putting those into Interval for certain non Marriott resorts that have a regional block.

 

[SueDonJ]

One resort impacts all resorts in Abound, not to mention others may find similar language at the resorts they own. I actually went back to the 2010 Marriott threads myself and I could not find any reference to existing resort rules that could protect the Marriott week owners. The Marriott owners have to come to the realization that Vistana is different and that they are trying to build Abound on rules that are very different than your rules.

Each Marriott resort has its own Public Offering Statement consisting of the Timeshare Declaration, the Master Deed, the Timesharing Plan, the Management Agreement, associated amendments and various other resort-specific legal filings, most of which amount to more than 300 pages each. In addition, there are governing docs specific to the Destination Club/Abound Trust and Exchange Company. All of these POS were given to the original purchasers who may or may not have passed them on to resale buyers. You're not going to find every page from every resort's POS on TUG, and you're also not going to find clear answers to every question that has been raised, because like every other company doing business Marriott protects itself by publicly releasing only the information that they're legally required to release. It doesn't mean TUGgers are ignorant or Marriott is malicious - it just means that for many questions the answers will only be found through experience.

As a Marriott owner who's bright enough to realize that Vistana products are different from Marriott products, I certainly haven't come to the realization that Marriott is doing anything wrong - or correct for that matter - with Vistana products. How could I, when the integration isn't even a working thing yet?!

 

[SueDonJ]

What Abound? Are we there yet?

For Marriott owners, yes, we are there yet. We've been there since 6/20/10. For Marriott owners, Abound is simply the renaming of what we have come to know as the Destination Club. Sure, new resorts are coming online imminently, but they're the only things that aren't here yet - and we recognized very early on that the establishment of the DC Exchange Company would facilitate new (even non-Marriott branded) resorts being integrated.

 

[timsi]

As a Marriott owner who's bright enough to realize that Vistana products are different from Marriott products, I certainly haven't come to the realization that Marriott is doing anything wrong - or correct for that matter - with Vistana products. How could I, when the integration isn't even a working thing yet?!

The Abound Exchange Procedures are public. I do not have to wait another year to come to the realization that if Abound gets inventory at 12 months, it is during the Home Resort Reservation Period.

Measuring with the same stick, you should not say that you love it since it's not a working thing yet.

 

[frank808]

I think most of the CCRs/bylaws also permit them to rent last minute inventory (for Lagunamar it's any inventory not used closer to 60 days within checking) at varying rates of reimbursement to the association (basically they get a big cut of whatever they are able to rent). While 60 days out is "last minute" for timeshare people, it's probably a sweet spot timing wise for people looking to pay cash. I make no judgment about how "fair" this arrangement is or is not....but it's been in the underlying docs for most resorts for years.

Seems like this is common in the TS world. DVC calls this breakage. DVC is allowed to rent any rooms not used within 60 days. They pay a minimum iscule amount back to the HOA of unit rented. I believe it was 5% or so.

I believe HGVC has it also. But HGVC also has open season which was a great benefit for the members. Now it seems like it mainly benefits HGVC bottom line.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[ocdb8r]

The Marriott owners have to come to the realization that Vistana is different and that they are trying to build Abound on rules that are very different than your rules.

Totally delusional. The MVC documents have provisions similar to the one you have cited; your interpretation is simply wrong.

From Ko Olina
"Owners will have the ability to request a reservation for a seven (7) night stay for an accommodation for a check-in day on a first-come, first-served basis, with other Owners, beginning twelve (12) months in advance of the requested check-in day. An Owner's request shall be timely if received no later than seventy-five (75) days prior to the first day of a Use Period."

Could equally be interpreted to mean that an exchange program could never make a reservation because it is not an Owner; however, the fact is when someone assigns the reservation and occupancy rights over to the Exchange Company it may then step in and exercise those right as an owner. Nothing in this language (nor the Lagunamar language) prevents that. Of course one could legally challenge this and have a court interpret it as you wish....but no amount of incessant squawking is going to make your interpretation "right" or "correct". It is simply that, an interpretation (which numerous people have rebutted). Again, it's totally pointless because the only thing that matters is how Marriott interprets the provisions until someone successfully challenges them in court.....so go for it!!

 

[Bodie]

The MVC IT debacle has passed the joke stage and is now just inexcusable. Using different search engines, I am unable to pull up my confirmed reservations or search on line availability. What makes us think when they sync the new program it will be any better? Past is prologue.

 

[Bodie]

I scroll these comments and realize how much smarter people are than I. I do get good insight and feedback but most of the time feel like the Peanuts kids do when adults talk. That aside, for most part I remain pleased with MVC but am dreading the new program.

 

[CPNY]

I scroll these comments and realize how much smarter people are than I. I do get good insight and feedback but most of the time feel like the Peanuts kids do when adults talk. That aside, for most part I remain pleased with MVC but am dreading the new program.

Aside from the IT debacle, what are some other reasons that are you dreading the new program?

 

[timsi]

Totally delusional. The MVC documents have provisions similar to the one you have cited; your interpretation is simply wrong.

From Ko Olina
"Owners will have the ability to request a reservation for a seven (7) night stay for an accommodation for a check-in day on a first-come, first-served basis, with other Owners, beginning twelve (12) months in advance of the requested check-in day. An Owner's request shall be timely if received no later than seventy-five (75) days prior to the first day of a Use Period."

Could equally be interpreted to mean that an exchange program could never make a reservation because it is not an Owner; however, the fact is when someone assigns the reservation and occupancy rights over to the Exchange Company it may then step in and exercise those right as an owner. Nothing in this language (nor the Lagunamar language) prevents that. Of course one could legally challenge this and have a court interpret it as you wish....but no amount of incessant squawking is going to make your interpretation "right" or "correct". It is simply that, an interpretation (which numerous people have rebutted). Again, it's totally pointless because the only thing that matters is how Marriott interprets the provisions until someone successfully challenges them in court.....so go for it!!

Similar to your quote from the Ko Olina documents, we can go to the pub tomorrow at 17:00, and other Tuggers can join us. This does not mean that those who are not Tuggers can’t come at the same time. We may even find guests at the pub who got there before 17:00.

Contrast this to the Vistana resorts where we talk about the exclusive right of the resort owners to book during the Home Resort Reservation Period and without competition from those who are not owners.
If the right of the owners could be assigned to the non-owners, the Lagunamar and the Vistana Home resort reservation period would be meaningless because just about ANYBODY and their mother could book; if that was the case they would not talk about exclusive rights and about article 13 at WLR that could only be changed with the vote of 90% of the members. To me, this is exactly what the rules wanted to prevent, whether you like it or not.

Thank you for confirming that the language used at the Marriott resorts was just not strong enough and that in 2010 MVC could take advantage of the lack of details; this is why they could start MVC bookings not only 12 but also 13 months before check in. This is what I suspected all along.

 

[sponger76]

Similar to your quote from the Ko Olina documents, we can go to the pub tomorrow at 17:00, and other Tuggers can join us. This does not mean that those who are not Tuggers can’t come at the same time. We may even find guests at the pub who got there before 17:00.

Contrast this to the Vistana resorts where we talk about the exclusive right of the resort owners to book during the Home Resort Reservation Period and without competition from those who are not owners.

Thank you for confirming that the language used at the Marriott resorts was just not strong enough and that in 2010 MVC could take advantage of the lack of details; this is why they could start MVC bookings not only 12 but also 13 months before check in. This is what I suspected all along.

 

[Bodie]

Possibly that the benefits I have as an Executive owner will be devalued or removed. That my Platinum status with Bonvoy received as long as I stay in the Executive tier will lose it’s cache. That the addition of Vistana owners will make it more difficult to reserve at the resorts I frequent. All I see are additional choices in areas not of interest to me save for a few. MVC could go a long way in assuaging my dread if they would explain - clearly and not in “ad speak” - why Abound is such an improvement.

 

[JIMinNC]

Good point. Maybe it is skewed. It was just an attempt to get at the total pointsrented. I do not know what the true denominator is. The correct denominater would be the total points attributed to weeks owned, not points in the trust. It could by more or less than 20%. Does anyone know how many total weeks exist outside of the trust?

The other consideration is the numbers I included in the earlier post were from December 2016 when there were less than 400 million points in the Trust. Today, there may be as many as 600 million points in the Trust. So, if Maui weeks in the Trust have grown proportionally with the overall Trust, the roughly 21 million points in the two phases of Maui Ocean Club in 2016 may have grown to around 30 million today.

Marriott no longer reports the number of units in each resort in their annual 10-K report, but I went back to the 2017 when they did and the total MOC unit count was 458. So, some number of those 458 units are those making up the theoretical 30 million points I mention above. You would have to calculate the average election value of the unit mix at MOC to come up with the number of units that notional 30 million represents. That election value ranges from 2250 for Island View 1BR in the original towers to 10,225 for 3BR OF is the newer towers. So if the average were 5000, that would mean the 30 million Trust points represented 115 units. If the average is higher, then the resulting units will be lower. But if we use 115 units for arguments sake, that leaves roughly 340 units owned by weeks owners. Some of these are used by the owner, some are elected for Points and go into the Abound Exchange, some may go to II, and others are rented by owner. It's even possible some may be owned by MVW after ROFR and they haven't been conveyed to the Trust yet.

Those may be better numbers to use in the calculations you did in your earlier post.

Note: Edited to fix some careless math! Thanks @timsi for the heads up.

 

[Bodie]

Aside from the IT debacle, what are some other reasons that are you dreading the new prognram?

That the benefits I currently receive as an Executive owner will be devalued. That, then, the Platinum status with Bonvoy I have by being an Executive owner will be devalued. That the competition for resorts I frequent will be even harder with the addition of Vistana members. There is very little of interest to me in the added inventory. Also, MVC will have to recoup its investment. Who’s paying for that? By and large I’m happy with my MVC relationship. But, it’s clear we are far less important than their shareholders. That’s the view from someone who just wants to be go where I want when I want.

 

[CPNY]

That the benefits I currently receive as an Executive owner will be devalued. That, then, the Platinum status with Bonvoy I have by being an Executive owner will be devalued. That the competition for resorts I frequent will be even harder with the addition of Vistana members. There is very little of interest to me in the added inventory. Also, MVC will have to recoup its investment. Who’s paying for that? By and large I’m happy with my MVC relationship. But, it’s clear we are far less important than their shareholders. That’s the view from someone who just wants to be go where I want when I want.

Thank you for that…. I agree

plat bonvoy is useless now

 

[Superchief]

The bigger 'Abound' gets, the poorer each owner is treated by the big corporation. Leadership cares more about shareholders than investors. Individual resorts lose their flexibility. Valued owners at a resort get lost in the masses. Services suffer. Decisions are made at the corporate level with little input from the resorts. MF's increase more than they should because too many unnecessary costs are added to inflate their resort ratings that are given by guests who have no concern about their costs. The places I want to go will be harder to get, and very few of the added ones are appealing to me.

A good example of how things will continue to get worse is the way MVC is handling communication of the situation at Marco Island. Communication is pathetic and it appears decisions are driven by corporate greed and CYA, with no consideration of the impact their decisions have on people's lives and investment.

I spent a career in corporate America and went through several mergers and acquisitions. The only people who benefit were the executives, lawyers, and investment bankers. Employees, shareholders, and customers were left holding the short end of the stick. I would never buy anything from this new company.