Was about to push the "purchase" button on a Wyndham TS; now... not so sure?

[mayamart]

I had done countless hours of research (I estimate 30+ hours of reading) over the past couple of months on purchasing a resale timeshare. We were wavering back and forth between Wyndham Kona Hawaiian or Waikiki Beach Club, Imperial Waikiki, or Club Donatello (close to home). We would use the TS only once per year or bank for a different location. We also take at least six 3-5 day trips and would need to have access to hotel deals. Even with all the reading, I was still confused by difference or benefits of CWS, CWA, Presidential Reserve, CWD, and Wyndham deeded vs Wyndham points.

Still decided on a Wyndham purchase anyway, so we can tap into the other Wyndham network/hotel offerings. Was literally ready to purchase Kona Hawaiian this weekend.

With the announcement of the Travel + Leisure acquisition, we may wait to see how that will effect the current Wyndham TS owners. Maybe they will fair better or maybe they will fair worse.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Should we go ahead and take the plunge anyway?

 

[WyndhamBarter]

If you're west coast based, I hope you've also considered Worldmark (owned
by Wyndham, but separate). We own both.

There are a *lot* more WM's in the West than Wyndhams, and you will pay a $99
exchange fee every time you use Wyndham points to use WM-only locations.
(And you won't get any advance booking privileges at WM.)

The part of WM we use the most is called Bonus Time - it's great for inexpensive
cash bookings at the last minute - it only works two weeks out.

Back on Wyndham - as dozens of other here will tell you - it doesn't matter as much
as you might think what location you own unless you are booking hard-to-get
weeks, like spring break and the holidays. At ten months out, all Wyndham points
work equally well at all still-available locations.

Good luck with your decision - just wanted to provide more context!

 

[geist1223]

Once again Wyndham does not "Own" Worldmark. Cendant, then Wyndham, then Wyndham Destinations, so to be Travel and Leisure bought the Development Rights for Worldmrk Resorts from Trendwest. What does this mean. Wyndham builds new Resorts. After they are completed Wyndham transfers the Deeds (with no debt) to Worldmark. One is currently being finished near Arches National Park in Utah. Wyndham will also acquire all or part of established Resorts, rehabilitate them and Transfer the Deed to Worldmark. Wyndham then has the right to sell the Worldmark Points from these Resorts. Wyndham pays MF to Worldmark for all unsold Points held by the Corporation. Worldmark and Wyndham also have an agreement in which Wyndham takes over defaulted Accounts (Points), pays the outstanding MF to Worldmark, and then can sell those Points.

As a separate matter the WM BOD has retained Wyndham as the day to day manager for its Resorts for which Wyndham is paid a Management Fee. Technically the WM BOD could terminate Wyndham as the day to day manager. Never going to happen.

 

[kaljor]

So effectively there's no difference between Wyndham owning and Wyndham managing?

 

[kaljor]

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Should we go ahead and take the plunge anyway?

You mentioned a lot of topics. I can try to simplify what things you raised that are a concern.

Wyndham works on the "Home Resort" basis. You have the right to make reservations 3 months earlier at your home resort than others do. CWS means you have one home resort. CWA is ownership in a pool that includes all or mostly all Wyndham resorts, so you have Home Resort early booking rights at all the locations in that pool. CWA has higher annual Maintenance Fees than many of the individual resorts because that fee is the average of their entire ownership.
So an average means it's higher than some, and lower than some. It also owns a fixed amount of interest in each of the resorts it owns, and that inventory is kept separate for early booking purposes.

Presidential Reserve is a whole different animal and somewhat specialized, and probably doesn't affect you. I don't know what CWD is. Wyndham deeded vs. Wyndham points is essentially meaningless today. There is probably a legal difference that I don't understand, but for joining the system today, you should probably just worry about points.

The main concern that most new buyers have is to buy a contract that has a good price per point, and a contract that carries lower maintenance fees. That's because at 10 months before your booking date, points are points. They are all equal. The main reason to consider anything else is if you often want to go to a particular resort during a particular week that is in high demand every year. Like New Orleans for Mardi Gras or Washington for Presidential inaugurations, or Orlando for Disney 50th anniversary. Then, not being able to book until 10 months out may mean that you're shut out.

I don't know anything about availability at the Hawaii resorts. Maybe others can post about that. To me the principle is if you know you want to be able to go to a high demand resort week, then buy enough CWS points at that resort for the week you want, and also buy enough CWA points to cover that same week. That way you'll have early access to all the inventory for that week. If you are not tied into any specific week at any specific resort, then you're probably better off concentrating on waiting and finding a reasonably priced contract that has enough points for you and is in a place with maintenance fees that are on the lower side of the average. Remember, at 10 months out points are points.

Other advice that I offer at no charge is do more research. You said you might have spent 30 hours on it and that's good, but not really enough because of the many variables. Keep reading and come back here and ask more questions. I don't think Wyndham resale points are going to go up in value anytime soon.

 

[Eric B]

IMHO, if your goal is to book Hawaiian resorts, look into which ones you want to use in particular and any additional programs that are available that would be helpful. In Club Wyndham, there is also a set of Hawaiian resorts that are in the "Outrigger Resort Club" (ORC) that provides for an exclusive reservation window starting at 12 months to the other resorts in the group in addition to the 13-month ARP at the home resort someone owns. They are also supposed to set aside "up to 25% of unreserved ORC inventory ... for the exclusive access of ORC members" between 10 and 3 months in advance (of course, up to 25% can technically be satisfied by setting aside none of it, but I believe what they are trying to say is that it starts out at 25% at 10 months and might go down as ORC members reserve that inventory).

I don't have a comprehensive list of which resorts are in ORC, but it includes Bali Hai, where I own, Waikiki Beach Walk, Kona Hawaiian Resort, and Royal Sea Cliff. On that list, the MFs/kPoints for 2021 are $3.84 for Bali Hai, $5.29 for Waikiki Beach Walk, $5.60 for Kona, and $6.35 for Royal Sea Cliff. There might be others in the group that I'm unaware of; I believe Shearwater does very well on the MFs for converted weeks, but don't know if it's in ORC and haven't seen all that many as resales. Bali Hai does show up as resale sort of regularly and generally costs a premium as compared to other Wyndham resorts because of the low MF.

ORC also allows booking at some associate resorts/hotels through Wyndham, but the cost in points is on the high side and probably not worth it. I haven't seen a lot of availability for those, either. In any case, I haven't really seen any great difficulty in being able to book the Wyndham Hawaiian resorts at the 10 month point or heard of folks having difficulty, so any other Club Wyndham Select (i.e., deeded resort ownership) with a low MF should work for getting access.

There's also a new product they are selling, Club Wyndham Prefer Hawaii, which is a conversion of the Shell Vacation Hawaiian grouping and allows priority access to those resorts. From what I've read, the MFs for that are on the high side as compared to other ownerships.

Finally, I don't think the rebranding under Travel + Leisure for the parent company will change anything about how Club Wyndham itself works. There may be changes to the ancillary things like outlets available to use points for non-Club Wyndham stays that are currently the PlusPartners things, but those were never a good use of points as compared to the underlying cost of those points. YMMV, of course.

 

[Jan M.]

So effectively there's no difference between Wyndham owning and Wyndham managing?

I know the topic of Wyndham "owning" resorts has been discussed in the past but as per usual for me I can't fully remember what was said.

Wyndham's business model is to have an agreement with a developer of a property. The developer owns the land and building. Some resorts have mixed use and some don't. Wyndham specifies how their units will be laid out and furnished. Wyndham is the sales agent and management company for the resort. Wyndham retains ownership of enough points in the various units at the resort to keep one or more of their people on the board of directors for the resort to ensure they don't get replaced as the management company. That is very lucrative.

Here's what I'm not sure about. I thought someone said there are a couple of resorts that Wyndham does actually own. Perhaps they're a carryover from the Fairfield days?

There are some resorts Wyndham doesn't manage. Star Island, Emerald Grande, Reunion are three I know of and I'm sure there are a few more.

I think Worldmark may actually own their resorts.

 

[geist1223]

Yes WM holds the Deeds to its Resorts.

You DO NOT have a Home Resort with WM.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wyndham works on the "Home Resort" basis. You have the right to make reservations 3 months earlier at your home resort than others do. CWS means you have one home resort. CWA is ownership in a pool that includes all or mostly all Wyndham resorts, so you have Home Resort early booking rights at all the locations in that pool. CWA has higher annual Maintenance Fees than many of the individual resorts because that fee is the average of their entire ownership.
So an average means it's higher than some, and lower than some. It also owns a fixed amount of interest in each of the resorts it owns, and that inventory is kept separate for early booking purposes.

Couple of important caveats on the ARP booking window for home resorts outlined above that are worthy of consideration dependent upon the resorts that are important to you for reservations.

You can book at your home resort in the ARP window as mentioned above, via the fixed amount of ownership interest only. Please remember that you are still competing with everyone else that also owns either CWA or CWS inventory - and you are competing for the same subset of inventory that the ownership types actually holds. For example, as mentioned, CWA holds inventory at 70+ "home" resorts - but in some cases - CWA only holds a small percentage of deeds when compared to CWS.

I say this because, if Hawaii resort ARP reservations are important to you, CWA holds zero inventory at any Hawaiian resort locations - at least according to the spreadsheet that I've been using to track ongoing CWA ownership holdings via the CWA POS (Public Offering Statement) that is published periodically. So if ARP is important to you at any respective Hawaiian resorts - CWA is likely not a good match for your vacation preferences.

That said, I don't know much about the Hawaiian resorts and whether ARP is really necessary for reservations during peak times, others here who own in Hawaii or vacation regularly at these resorts can provide this type of detailed guidance. If ARP isn't really important and/or necessary to obtain the reservations you seek - then CWA may still work for you since all inventory (except for PR and MVC) is pooled in the standard booking window at ten months and under.

 

[pedro47]

Suggestion only. Take your time. That timeshare resort will be here today, tomorrow and in the future. IMHO.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Don't expect much change except for some branding alignments. Product will likely not be impacted at all.

 

[MaryBella7]

You mention the hotels a couple of times. I am not VIP or a developer owner, but I think that the hotel side of Wyndham is largely unrelated and the hotel deals come through Wyndham Rewards points you get for using a credit card or attending presentations. I don’t think there are just discounts on hotels with Wyndham ownership. If I am wrong, I am sure someone will chime in.

 

[cowboy]

Don't buy Wyndham. Look at Marriott. Much nicer Resorts. None of Wyndham s on Hawaii have ocean front properties. Only two on Kauai have ocean front properties.

 

[Eric B]

I'd phrase it instead as do your due diligence to see which, if any, TS ownerships on the spectrum of quality and flexibility of usage as compared to the overall costs and locations meet your needs. Marriotts are generally nicer than Wyndhams; there are ones available that are even nicer at a higher cost, too, but there is no one size fits all solution for everyone. In fact, there are an awful lot of people that do quite well with just renting instead of buying.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You mention the hotels a couple of times. I am not VIP or a developer owner, but I think that the hotel side of Wyndham is largely unrelated and the hotel deals come through Wyndham Rewards points you get for using a credit card or attending presentations. I don’t think there are just discounts on hotels with Wyndham ownership. If I am wrong, I am sure someone will chime in.

We almost always use WR points for hotel travel, but supposedly you do get an ownership benefit for Wyndham hotels - it's listed on under Owner Exclusives on the owner website:

 

[MaryBella7]

We almost always use WR points for hotel travel, but supposedly you do get an ownership benefit for Wyndham hotels - it's listed on under Owner Exclusives on the owner website:

View attachment 30970

I think I get a better discount through AAA

 

[Jan M.]

Don't buy Wyndham. Look at Marriott. Much nicer Resorts. None of Wyndham s on Hawaii have ocean front properties. Only two on Kauai have ocean front properties.

Shearwater on Kauai is oceanfront. The unit we stayed in at Kauai Beach Villas was oceanfront.

 

[Eric B]

Shearwater on Kauai is oceanfront. The unit we stayed in at Kauai Beach Villas was oceanfront.

Is the beach swimmable at Shearwater? I had understood that the one at KBV isn't.

 

[dgalati]

I'd phrase it instead as do your due diligence to see which, if any, TS ownerships on the spectrum of quality and flexibility of usage as compared to the overall costs and locations meet your needs. In fact, there are an awful lot of people that do quite well with just renting instead of buying.

I would agree with this statement! As a current Wyndham owner I rent for less then the cost of paying maintenance fees. If you are flexible with your travel plans there are unlimited discounted reservations available from VIP owners passing along their discounts. See attached link. https://tugbbs.com/forums/forums/timeshare-rentals-offered.45/

 

[Jan M.]

Is the beach swimmable at Shearwater? I had understood that the one at KBV isn't.

There are only a few public beaches with lifeguards that you can swim at on the east and north sides of the island. of Kauai. I don't know if there are resorts that have a guarded beach. From what I saw about the number of drowning deaths on the island I wouldn't recommend swimming at any beach that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty.

 

[rickandcindy23]

If you have money set aside for a purchase of something and want something really worth the money paid upfront for a resale purchase, consider Hilton over Wyndham. Sometimes free or nearly free is not worth those prices.

I would also think about Marriott or Sheraton resales. I get some pretty good trades for my Marriott and Sheraton weeks through II. Bought all through resale. I am hoping one day Marriott will convert my weeks to points without charging me $60K+.

 

[noni0617]

I wouldn't lock myself into anything. The cost of owning a TS is not an investment and from my instance impossible to get out from under. With all the costs involved yearly you can rent a place from all those resorts cheaper.

 

[Melder]

If you have money set aside for a purchase of something and want something really worth the money paid upfront for a resale purchase, consider Hilton over Wyndham. Sometimes free or nearly free is not worth those prices.

I've considered Hilton. The challenge I had was that I'm only interested in timeshare use in the US. Hilton has 1/2 the properties Wyndham has and many of them are International. When choosing, I focused on the number of US destination locations (not resorts). Hilton has 19 US destinations vs. Wyndham's 65.

mayamart... Have you checked out the TIMESHARE POINT SYSTEM COMPARISON CHART?

 

[dgalati]

I wouldn't lock myself into anything. The cost of owning a TS is not an investment and from my instance impossible to get out from under. With all the costs involved yearly you can rent a place from all those resorts cheaper.

Yes my experience also. I can travel like a VIPP renting from a owner that passes along their discounts and upgrades without the burden of paying maintenance fees and being locked into one timeshare system. A few on this board would disagree as some do feel it is a great investment. What works for me may not work for someone else just learn the system and make it work for your travel needs.

 

[Braindead]

I wouldn't lock myself into anything. The cost of owning a TS is not an investment and from my instance impossible to get out from under.

Yes my experience also.

Dgalati please tell us your experiences.
You’ve owned in or own in more than one timeshare company, so how do you have a similar experience of not locking yourself into MFs?
Please tell us your story about the “instances where it was impossible to get out from under a Wyndham TS” that you’ve experienced first hand? All you’ve ever said is how it’s so easy for you to dispose of Wyndham TS even on a yearly basis