Waitlist expansion?

[Floridaman76]

I am not VIP owner, so I’m obviously missing something here, and I tried tracking the tread but I can’t really understand - can someone spell out the impact here, and what specifically the change is and how that made that impact ? I have used the waitlist feature, but always at the ten month mark (twice for TOTG 2 BR ocean view deluxe) and have been matched at at least 9 months out both times.

This is it in a nutshell, as applicable to VIP owners.

All levels of VIP owners get suite discounts at the 60 day mark. The percentage of discount depends on your VIP level.

All VIP owners are entitled to suite upgrades, IF AVAILABLE, starting at their upgrade window of 60 days (Founders, Platinum), 45 days (Gold), 30 days (Silver) and 15 days (Bronze).

For upgrades, there's an instant upgrade that presents itself AT BOOKING if you are inside your upgrade window. If you are browsing suites and see the next size suite available, and you book a smaller suite, it will upgrade you as part of the booking. This is VERY reliable and works almost 100% of the time.

Then there is the other kind of upgrade when you book either outside the upgrade window or if you are inside your upgrade window but there is not an upgrade available at the time of booking. You have the ability to opt-in to a future upgrade if the opportunity becomes available. This method seems to be much less reliable. And seems to work better at some resorts vs others. You can specifically opt-out of upgrades too, there are some scenarios where it's preferable to NOT upgrade.

So why any of this matters?

Currently the waitlist by design ends at the 60 day mark. There is no possibility of getting either a discount or an upgrade if you waitlist.

If they change the waitlist to allow the waitlist to run down to 14 days, that will allow people who have a ton of points to make a booking at the ARP window potentially at full points cost, and simultaneously put in a waitlist request, AND if that upgrade hits inside the 60 day window, the owner would get a discount and possibly an upgrade as well if one is available. Allowing them to cancel their original booking and then book at a discount and/or upgrade possibly.

Those of us who know the system and how it works can already see the potential for abuse. The damage or "blast radius" will be limited because you can only do two waitlists. AND some of this would be dependent on the waitlist hitting inside your discount window...

If you have heard of the old time "cancel and rebook" we used to have, this will have the same net effect as that, although the way to do it is much more cumbersome and less transparent, and potentially could cost money (the waitlist usually has a $35 fee)

But there's more...

Currently, since nobody can waitlist under 60 days, when someone makes a cancellation, the inventory becomes available to book. Some of us are constantly looking for last minute deals. My fear (very well founded too) will be that some of the inventory that I have "sniped" in the past when people cancel, will go to people on the waitlist. This is the thing I am most upset about. Currently the system benefits people who put the time and effort into hunting for deals, and with this change, the last minute suites will go to people on the waitlists first...

I think that should answer your questions.

 

[Floridaman76]

A thought on how this change could benefit all parties...

Wyndham could programatically deny upgrades and discounts to all waitlist bookings.

I feel this would help SOME, but the issue of inventory being sniped up by waitlist owners and unavailable to savvy upgrade hunters, like me would still be a negative.

 

[Arimaas]

This is it in a nutshell, as applicable to VIP owners.

All levels of VIP owners get suite discounts at the 60 day mark. The percentage of discount depends on your VIP level.

All VIP owners are entitled to suite upgrades, IF AVAILABLE, starting at their upgrade window of 60 days (Founders, Platinum), 45 days (Gold), 30 days (Silver) and 15 days (Bronze).

For upgrades, there's an instant upgrade that presents itself AT BOOKING if you are inside your upgrade window. If you are browsing suites and see the next size suite available, and you book a smaller suite, it will upgrade you as part of the booking. This is VERY reliable and works almost 100% of the time.

Then there is the other kind of upgrade when you book either outside the upgrade window or if you are inside your upgrade window but there is not an upgrade available at the time of booking. You have the ability to opt-in to a future upgrade if the opportunity becomes available. This method seems to be much less reliable. And seems to work better at some resorts vs others. You can specifically opt-out of upgrades too, there are some scenarios where it's preferable to NOT upgrade.

So why any of this matters?

Currently the waitlist by design ends at the 60 day mark. There is no possibility of getting either a discount or an upgrade if you waitlist.

If they change the waitlist to allow the waitlist to run down to 14 days, that will allow people who have a ton of points to make a booking at the ARP window potentially at full points cost, and simultaneously put in a waitlist request, AND if that upgrade hits inside the 60 day window, the owner would get a discount and possibly an upgrade as well if one is available. Allowing them to cancel their original booking and then book at a discount and/or upgrade possibly.

Those of us who know the system and how it works can already see the potential for abuse. The damage or "blast radius" will be limited because you can only do two waitlists. AND some of this would be dependent on the waitlist hitting inside your discount window...

If you have heard of the old time "cancel and rebook" we used to have, this will have the same net effect as that, although the way to do it is much more cumbersome and less transparent, and potentially could cost money (the waitlist usually has a $35 fee)

But there's more...

Currently, since nobody can waitlist under 60 days, when someone makes a cancellation, the inventory becomes available to book. Some of us are constantly looking for last minute deals. My fear (very well founded too) will be that some of the inventory that I have "sniped" in the past when people cancel, will go to people on the waitlist. This is the thing I am most upset about. Currently the system benefits people who put the time and effort into hunting for deals, and with this change, the last minute suites will go to people on the waitlists first...

I think that should answer your questions.

Yes thanks. Makes sense. So this impacts VIP owner’s upgrade, because if someone is waitlisting your room, it goes to them first before it’s offered to the upgrade list. Wonder why they want to trickle down the waitlist to 14 days. I guess like you all said - to put paid guests in rooms before giving it away for free.

 

[CO skier]

Roll your eyes all you want, pal... Despite you continually trying to sneak Worldmark into this conversation it's just NOT relevant. Worldmark does not have suite discounts or upgrades, so their waitlist works fine the way it is down to 14 days.

Our system has discounts that hit at 60 days and depending on your VIP level, upgrades start hitting at 60, 45, 30 and 15 days.

Which is why VIP discounts should not apply to waitlist offers booked within 60 days.

Try to keep up. Read post #36

If this is the case, then VIP discounts cannot apply to waitlist offers, because it would bring back a limited version of the old cancel/rebook trick.

 

[CO skier]

Wyndham could programatically deny upgrades and discounts to all waitlist bookings.

You mean like what was suggested in post #36?

If this is the case, then VIP discounts cannot apply to waitlist offers, because it would bring back a limited version of the old cancel/rebook trick.

 

[CO skier]

Roll your eyes all you want, pal... Despite you continually trying to sneak Worldmark into this conversation it's just NOT relevant.

Well, according to only you.

And c'mon, did you miss the part where WorldMark waitlists have been valid until 14 days since waitlists were first introduced?

Where do you think Wyndham got the idea?

 

[Floridaman76]

Well, according to only you.

And c'mon, did you miss the part where WorldMark waitlists have been valid until 14 days since waitlists were first introduced?

Where do you think Wyndham got the idea?

And like I said, Worldmark's waitlist system is irrelevant to this conversation because they don't have a program for VIP's which do suite discounts and upgrades starting at 60 days, not sure why this is so hard for you to wrap your head around... they are apples and oranges

Nobody in Worldmark is sniping for last minute bookings to get discounts and upgrades, because that's not a thing there. I'm assuming some of that inventory shows up in their Bonus Time, but that's available to everyone, not just VIP's. So it's much more transparent.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Is the waitlist a batch process (like upgrades). A HUGE flaw (when words like 'next in line' comes into play). Because 1st online trumps next inline...

I'm not sure how much abuse can come into play (since we can only have 2 at a time). Then again, you sure get the idea that someone has figured out how to put GC's on the day of checkin even if they don't have allowances. It wasn't me. Programmatically that seems to work well, and yet there seems to be something going on (stopping GC's altogether (or even changing owners)) to be put on (without calling).

Yes my understanding is that it's a batch process just like auto-upgrade - though specific to waitlist - I believe it runs multiple times each day unlike the auto-upgrade process. Basically, when inventory is cancelled outside of the 60 day window at least - that inventory is initially hidden - then a quick script is run to see if that inventory matches any waitlist(s) in queue. If yes, then it stays hidden until the back end waitlist batch process runs. If there are no waitlists for that particular piece of inventory - then it's unhidden relatively quickly and owners can book it normally. If there's a matching waitlist(s) then each owner, serially, receives a waitlist notification and has 48 hours to accept the waitlist - and if it's booked it will never appear as available. This is why sometimes it takes days for the inventory to re-appear - because waitlists exist - but for whatever reason the owner(s) don't ever respond to the waitlist request so the 48 hour window(s) have to expire before that inventory can be seen for normal owner bookings.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Yes my understanding is that it's a batch process just like auto-upgrade - though specific to waitlist - I believe it runs multiple times each day unlike the auto-upgrade process. Basically, when inventory is cancelled outside of the 60 day window at least - that inventory is initially hidden - then a quick script is run to see if that inventory matches any waitlist(s) in queue. If yes, then it stays hidden until the back end waitlist batch process runs. If there are no waitlists for that particular piece of inventory - then it's unhidden relatively quickly and owners can book it normally. If there's a matching waitlist(s) then each owner, serially, receives a waitlist notification and has 48 hours to accept the waitlist - and if it's booked it will never appear as available. This is why sometimes it takes days for the inventory to re-appear - because waitlists exist - but for whatever reason the owner(s) don't ever respond to the waitlist request so the 48 hour window(s) have to expire before that inventory can be seen for normal owner bookings.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Thank you for the details. A whole lot of processing and complicated logic for something there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in in the first place. And for something that still can't be reliable (online versus batch access).

I was pleasantly surprised with a couple early on waitlist requests. But have since been disappointed (seen what I was waiting for was available). My take away is nice if it works, but don't count on it.

I would much rather time be spent on things like authenticity and properly displaying available inventory (ghosts have gotten fewer, but still happen). The changing of room types (being more explicit) seems to most people's disadvantages, IMO. How many people really need to see whether or not there is a roll-in shower. But adding that details to a description makes for a new room type (and maybe not as long of a stay available because it's now 2 rooms types).

Perhaps a refer on the KISS principle would be in order?

 

[Roger830]

If there's a matching waitlist(s) then each owner, serially, receives a waitlist notification and has 48 hours to accept the waitlist - and if it's booked it will never appear as available. This is why sometimes it takes days for the inventory to re-appear - because waitlists exist - but for whatever reason the owner(s) don't ever respond to the waitlist request so the 48 hour window(s) have to expire before that inventory can be seen for normal owner bookings.

I assumed that the 60 day cutoff on the waitlist was because of the 48 hour window.

Some members need more time to make other travel arrangements.

 

[paxsarah]

Corrected to 15 days now:

 

[jp10558]

Currently, since nobody can waitlist under 60 days, when someone makes a cancellation, the inventory becomes available to book. Some of us are constantly looking for last minute deals. My fear (very well founded too) will be that some of the inventory that I have "sniped" in the past when people cancel, will go to people on the waitlist. This is the thing I am most upset about. Currently the system benefits people who put the time and effort into hunting for deals, and with this change, the last minute suites will go to people on the waitlists first...

Though it's a nice strategy to put in more time and effort to get better bookings, I don't actually see why Wyndham would or should want to preserve that. It seems like they want to make it as easy as possible for as many as possible to get a booking. This makes them look better to "regular owners" and fills units. I can see preferencing VIPs as Wyndham would love benefits that are "free" to them to provide to upsell on retail, but preferencing people who make it their hobby doesn't seem in Wyndham's interest. That's just me though.

Personally I'd be more unhappy about the "waves of cancellations" that happen at certain days out - i.e. speculative bookings that tie up inventory so people who fully intend to travel can't book at some reasonable timeframe out. I know it's convenient if you've got masses of points but it seems like the booking equivalent to "reserving" a pool lounger. I imagine this might have been part of the rental crackdown, you reserve better stays and then cancel if they don't rent but that prevents people from booking if they need a few months notice rather than 14 days.

 

[chapjim]

Though it's a nice strategy to put in more time and effort to get better bookings, I don't actually see why Wyndham would or should want to preserve that. It seems like they want to make it as easy as possible for as many as possible to get a booking. This makes them look better to "regular owners" and fills units. I can see preferencing VIPs as Wyndham would love benefits that are "free" to them to provide to upsell on retail, but preferencing people who make it their hobby doesn't seem in Wyndham's interest. That's just me though.

Personally I'd be more unhappy about the "waves of cancellations" that happen at certain days out - i.e. speculative bookings that tie up inventory so people who fully intend to travel can't book at some reasonable timeframe out. I know it's convenient if you've got masses of points but it seems like the booking equivalent to "reserving" a pool lounger. I imagine this might have been part of the rental crackdown, you reserve better stays and then cancel if they don't rent but that prevents people from booking if they need a few months notice rather than 14 days.

I still do that and it has nothing to do with renting. That's why I have 1,300 points left in 2026 and 150,000 points left in 2027 (out of 1.8 million). HGVC and HVC points balances are similarly meager.

No doubt I will make a number of adjustments over the months.

If I were to take a dark view of Wyndham's treatment of VIP owners, it would be that they already have our money so we are no longer one of their priorities. I don't really need to take a dark view of Wyndham. There are lots of people here who are far more proficient than I.

 

[CO skier]

Corrected to 15 days now:
View attachment 128981

That would be consistent with the WorldMark waitlist minimum.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Well, I heard back from my Wyndham contacts, here's the press statement at this time FWIW:

I've escalated the questions to the Club Wyndham team and they have confirmed changes are coming in mid-September and will announce greater details than what was inadvertently posted in error. That was draft copy that hasn't been updated to reflect the current changes that are planned.

 

[chapjim]

Well, I heard back from my Wyndham contacts, here's the press statement at this time FWIW:

I've escalated the questions to the Club Wyndham team and they have confirmed changes are coming in mid-September and will announce greater details than what was inadvertently posted in error. That was draft copy that hasn't been updated to reflect the current changes that are planned.

Wow! Draft copy? Seriously?

Are there no controls on who posts policy changes? Doesn't someone review/approve such things? This is about as weak a response as I can recall.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Wow! Draft copy? Seriously?

Are there no controls on who posts policy changes? Doesn't someone review/approve such things? This is about as weak a response as I can recall.

It's the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing type thing. Two different departments involved - obviously the content team got out ahead of the front end website team in this case - not the first time - won't be the last time most likely. Poor inter-departmental communication at work.

 

[Sandi Bo]

It's the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing type thing. Two different departments involved - obviously the content team got out ahead of the front end website team in this case - not the first time - won't be the last time most likely. Poor inter-departmental communication at work.

I beg to differ - maybe the first time ever for early communication?

 

[paxsarah]

Well, I heard back from my Wyndham contacts, here's the press statement at this time FWIW:

I've escalated the questions to the Club Wyndham team and they have confirmed changes are coming in mid-September and will announce greater details than what was inadvertently posted in error. That was draft copy that hasn't been updated to reflect the current changes that are planned.

I mean, and there were multiple versions of "draft" copy:
1. A couple of weeks ago (or longer?) someone on Facebook noticed that the 2 month endpoint had simply been taken out and replaced with 14 days. Richelle aware of it at that time and said she'd check with her contacts.
2. Earlier this week someone else noticed that it had changed to the version I posted in post #1 of this thread - stating the current 2 month cutoff and that it's changing to 14 days in "mid September."
3. Yesterday I communicated with Richelle about it after she posted the exact text you have in your post, and she reached out again to her contacts, and almost immediately 14 days was changed to 15 days.

Here's the history with screenshots from the internet archive. Note that dates aren't necessarily change dates, but viewing/internet archive dates. (Except the last one happens to be the change date, because I know it changed yesterday.)

 

[HitchHiker71]

I beg to differ - maybe the first time ever for early communication?

Yes, but with zero context provided and no FAQ - it creates more confusion than anything IMHO.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I mean, and there were multiple versions of "draft" copy:
1. A couple of weeks ago (or longer?) someone on Facebook noticed that the 2 month endpoint had simply been taken out and replaced with 14 days. Richelle aware of it at that time and said she'd check with her contacts.
2. Earlier this week someone else noticed that it had changed to the version I posted in post #1 of this thread - stating the current 2 month cutoff and that it's changing to 14 days in "mid September."
3. Yesterday I communicated with Richelle about it after she posted the exact text you have in your post, and she reached out again to her contacts, and almost immediately 14 days was changed to 15 days.

Here's the history with screenshots from the internet archive. Note that dates aren't necessarily change dates, but viewing/internet archive dates. (Except the last one happens to be the change date, because I know it changed yesterday.)
View attachment 128997

Yep, I'm aware. I'm on the email thread Richelle sent to Wyndham - always am - we always include one another on any/all Wyndham emails by design since we work with the same contacts.

 

[paxsarah]

Another thing for them to check on before making the more explanatory update is that there are two spots on that page that still refer to needing to call a vacation guide to make a waitlist change - which was true when the waitlist was first introduced, but they updated the system to allow owners to make their own waitlist changes just a few months later.

 

[paxsarah]

Yep, I'm aware. I'm on the email thread Richelle sent to Wyndham - always am - we always include one another on any/all Wyndham emails by design since we work with the same contacts.

If she included my summary in an email yesterday, note that I updated it today with the latest change.