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Upfront fee Scammer gets 46 months in prison!

TUGBrian

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irish

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it's about time!!!
 

TUGBrian

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as I read the article, this appears to be just one of the workers making the calls...if so that is FANTASTIC...and I hope the guys who ran the show get even more time.
 

ronparise

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Brian
I think you are right

On my first read I was ready to post...4 years for 30 million doesnt seem to bad. I might consider PCCing as a career

Then like you, I re read it. and Im even more certain that engaging in an upfront fee scam seems like a good idea for organized crime. As the "owner" of the company I could take care of my employees family while he is on "vacation" and still have 29.5 million left for me

If its just one of the workers, then shame on the prosecution. They are encouraging these scams, not stopping them by just going after the workers. and I think its the developers and the POAs that by their inaction are making these scams possible. 22000 people scammed out of about $1400 each. Goes to show you just how bad timeshare developers and the POAs are., when it comes to providing an exit strategy for their owners
 

Dave H

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Ron:

What kind of an exit strategy should the POA and the developer offer. And where does it end. I no longer want my Florida house that I am 140k upside down on, should my lender offer me an exit strategy as I no longer want to live there and still allow me my clean credit and no collections activity.

What happened to you bought a deeded timeshare, house,condo and you have made a financial commitment to pay the annual fees, mortgages etc.

Should I ask my homeowners association where I live what the strategy is for my upside down house now that I no longer want it? Where in the POA docs does it say the other owners can just take over my financial responsibilty now that I no longer want it.

Why does a timeshare developer, POA, HOA, COA or for that matter my car company or anyone else have to provide me an exit strategy that is in my best interests. When do I have to be a responsible adult and handle my own affairs?

I agree somethign needs to be done, but I am not sure the Developer or the POA is the answer.
 

Gophesjo

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POA, maybe not, but developer - yes! Can anybody say that there is a developer out there whose sales staff does not in some way shape or form misrepresent their timeshare product and its usage potential. Yes, consumers are oftentimes foolish, but a business model that encourages that foolishness serves no purpose other than lining the pockets of the developers owners.

As for POA's, they can actually - and often do - help. Every one of the resorts I own has a rental program for owners, AND for the weeks that they have taken back - voluntarily or through foreclosure. While rental income perhaps goes straight to the bottom line of developer controlled resorts (without in any way benefiting other owners who are footing the entire annual budget through their MF payments), Association controlled resorts often can and do use rental income to supplement MF income in the the budget to offset operating expenses.
 

rickandcindy23

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I am going to tell the next upfront fee company who calls me that I hope they rot in prison with the person who worked for this company. I will be happy to HELP them get to prison, too.
 

stevedmatt

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Ron:

What kind of an exit strategy should the POA and the developer offer. And where does it end. I no longer want my Florida house that I am 140k upside down on, should my lender offer me an exit strategy as I no longer want to live there and still allow me my clean credit and no collections activity.

What happened to you bought a deeded timeshare, house,condo and you have made a financial commitment to pay the annual fees, mortgages etc.

Should I ask my homeowners association where I live what the strategy is for my upside down house now that I no longer want it? Where in the POA docs does it say the other owners can just take over my financial responsibilty now that I no longer want it.

Why does a timeshare developer, POA, HOA, COA or for that matter my car company or anyone else have to provide me an exit strategy that is in my best interests. When do I have to be a responsible adult and handle my own affairs?

I agree somethign needs to be done, but I am not sure the Developer or the POA is the answer.
I think that allowing deed backs is a cost effective way for a POA to rid themselves of dead beat owners. If they don't, they have legal fees to foreclose, unit time lost that may have been rented, and unpaid fees lost.

I am all for people accepting responsibility, but this is not exactly the same as walking away from a loan payment.
 

TUGBrian

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the PCC's have made MILLIONS adopting the "pay x years maint fees and we will take it from you" approach...

without a better alternative, Its simly just going to keep costing these resorts money every time an owner goes that route, when said owner would likely be MORE than happy to go through the resort or hoa to accomplish the same task.

I really see nothing for the resorts to lose at this point...

if its a week that will sell, the resort can dump it on ebay just like PCC's do. if the week wont sell, at least it wont end up in an LLC they cant contact and they will own the week free and clear.

burying heads in the sand and hoping owners will continue to pay forever is no longer a financially survivable strategy.
 

ronparise

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Ron:

What kind of an exit strategy should the POA and the developer offer. And where does it end. I no longer want my Florida house that I am 140k upside down on, should my lender offer me an exit strategy as I no longer want to live there and still allow me my clean credit and no collections activity.

What happened to you bought a deeded timeshare, house,condo and you have made a financial commitment to pay the annual fees, mortgages etc.

Should I ask my homeowners association where I live what the strategy is for my upside down house now that I no longer want it? Where in the POA docs does it say the other owners can just take over my financial responsibilty now that I no longer want it.

Why does a timeshare developer, POA, HOA, COA or for that matter my car company or anyone else have to provide me an exit strategy that is in my best interests. When do I have to be a responsible adult and handle my own affairs?

I agree somethign needs to be done, but I am not sure the Developer or the POA is the answer.


No one is asking your lender to bail you out, and no one is asking your condo assoc to take over the maintenance payments. But you can sell that condo (Ill list it for you since you are in Florida) If you are upside down $140k, in my market, Id assume you paid about $280 and its worth about 140k we'll sell it for that. If you dont have a mortgage its easy, you just lose 140k

If you do have a mortgage we can work out a short sale. Im closing one this week where my clients owes 150k and we sold it for $50. So I know its possible

And if you dont pay your condo fee the rest of the owners do have to pick up the slack

Most time share owners would be happy to take half of the developer price for their timeshares...but that option is not available to them. and Ive not heard of a lender negotiating a short sale for a timeshare loan

The POAs and the owners are already taking a hit. I have the budgets for 15 timeshares on my desk right now..most of them have a bad debt expense of nearly 20%.which means my fees are much higher than they should be. Most of them already have a procedure to get these units back on a paying basis...foreclosure..Im suggesting that it may not be the best procedure, and in fact its a procedure that makes it easy for the scammers to do their work..ie we threaten to foreclose which pushes the owner into the hands of the scammers.

The folks that are so desperate to be rid of their timeshares are willing to take nothing for them, in fact they pay these criminals to take them away. They are trying to do whats right (sell) , and they cant.

You mention car companies...There is and exit strategy,,I tow my junker to a yard, where they strip it for usable, salable parts and crush the rest, send it off to a mill where steel is recycled and the car companies buy the now new steel to make new cars...also there are used car lots right on site with the new cars. I talked a salesman yesterday who says he gets paid twice as much by the dealer when he sells a used car as when he sells a new one. Make sure you understand what Im saying...new cars and used cars are on the same lot, and the sales force gets paid more to sell the used stuff.....Ill be with a timeshare salesman at Wyndhams Bonnet Creek next week....How many used timeshares do you think he/she will offer me??

Im not suggesting the Developers or the POAs develop an exit strategy to help the people that want out. Like you I dont care about them. Im acting purely in my own self interest by suggesting the developers and POAs develop an exit strategy to help those of us that want to own this stuff and do pay our bills...The lack of one makes for higher fees and gives the bad guys their market

As to what that exit strategy should be...I think we should go back to the roots of timesharing for the answer...I like the Hapimag model..Owners own shares in the company and after 4 years of paying fees, the company will buy your shares back (thank you Carolinian for the information)
 

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As a former HOA president, our HOA allowed deedbacks but did not advertise the fact, and that was generally the case with member-controlled HOA's in our area. I don't know if it still is since I heard that after being deluged with calls from upset own-to-exchange owners after RCI imposed Points Lite, some were considering ending deedbacks because they were afraid of a stampeded.

What I do applaud is the pushback from management companies mentioned in a recent article in Timesharing Today magazine where the management companies were warning members that if they participated in the PCC scam, then the HOA's would be suing both the PCC and the member who participated for fraudulent conveyance.

I am glad that the upfront fee scammers are getting active time, and I am also glad that PCC's and their clients may be sitting soon at the defense table in a courtroom. All of them richly deserve it.


the PCC's have made MILLIONS adopting the "pay x years maint fees and we will take it from you" approach...

without a better alternative, Its simly just going to keep costing these resorts money every time an owner goes that route, when said owner would likely be MORE than happy to go through the resort or hoa to accomplish the same task.

I really see nothing for the resorts to lose at this point...

if its a week that will sell, the resort can dump it on ebay just like PCC's do. if the week wont sell, at least it wont end up in an LLC they cant contact and they will own the week free and clear.

burying heads in the sand and hoping owners will continue to pay forever is no longer a financially survivable strategy.
 

LannyPC

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Brian
I think its the developers and the HOAs that by their inaction are making these scams possible. 22000 people scammed out of about $1400 each. Goes to show you just how bad timeshare developers and the POAs are., when it comes to providing an exit strategy for their owners
Almost completely agree with you. If the developers, POAs, and resorts would "educate" owners more efficiently about these upfront fee scammers, then owners would know what to do when contacted by scammers and the scammers would be starved out of existence. We wouldn't need any legislation regardless of how much teeth the law makers and law enforcement have. Educate through these monthly news letters, monthly e-mailings, notices on the resorts' bulletin boards, etc.

But, it still remains my personal opinion that the developers, HOAs, and resorts (I know that technically there is a difference between the three but they all have to co-operate in order to sell units) avoid warning owners of these scams because it will expose the "scam" that they are running of selling units for $15000 that will be worth pennies on the dollar after the rescission period ends.

Now the reason why I say "almost" completely agree with you is because I'm still "on the fence" as to whether or not developers, HOAs, and resorts should provide exit strategies.
 

Brerrabbit

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Prison for upfront fee scammers

Brian
I think you are right

On my first read I was ready to post...4 years for 30 million doesnt seem to bad. I might consider PCCing as a career

Then like you, I re read it. and Im even more certain that engaging in an upfront fee scam seems like a good idea for organized crime. As the "owner" of the company I could take care of my employees family while he is on "vacation" and still have 29.5 million left for me

If its just one of the workers, then shame on the prosecution. They are encouraging these scams, not stopping them by just going after the workers. and I think its the developers and the POAs that by their inaction are making these scams possible. 22000 people scammed out of about $1400 each. Goes to show you just how bad timeshare developers and the POAs are., when it comes to providing an exit strategy for their owners

What they should do is tell him that he stays in jail until everyone that they scammed gets 100% of their money back.
 

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We need to seperate the Scammers from the PCC's in this article....Not all PCC's are scammers....some are great companies that save people from bankruptcy

This was strictly a scam, they said they had a buyer for someones timeshare but no buyer appeared and the owner still held the Deed, even after paying for the service...Not all PCC's act this way, Some actually get you out of your deed with only a few thousand paid by the owner

I wish Communities like TUG would help with timeshare owners who need to get out by listing the Good PCC's that actually do as they say and listing those that are only a scam
 

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Now the reason why I say "almost" completely agree with you is because I'm still "on the fence" as to whether or not developers, HOAs, and resorts should provide exit strategies.
What pushed me of the fence is looking at this selfishly..The exit strategy wont be designed to help the guy that wants out, or the guy that isnt paying their fair share

The exit strategy should be designed to help the owners that are paying their fees, by getting unproductive weeks in the hands of folks that are able and willing to pay, and do it as quickly as possible. That a deadbeat might get off the hook is a "so what" in my book; a necessary evil That an old guy that cant travel any more and doesnt have the money to pay his fees is given a way out, is a positive side effect.

Im suggesting we put the bad guys out of business not by putting them in jail (as satisfying as that might be), but rather by drying up their market.

And I think the POAs have to take the lead. I own 6 weeks at one resort. And I intend to buy at least 4 more...Why dosent the POA know that and why dont theycall me everytime they get a week back....There are two PCCs that do call me.

Whats wrong with this picture
 

ronparise

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We need to seperate the Scammers from the PCC's in this article....Not all PCC's are scammers....some are great companies that save people from bankruptcy

This was strictly a scam, they said they had a buyer for someones timeshare but no buyer appeared and the owner still held the Deed, even after paying for the service...Not all PCC's act this way, Some actually get you out of your deed with only a few thousand paid by the owner

I wish Communities like TUG would help with timeshare owners who need to get out by listing the Good PCC's that actually do as they say and listing those that are only a scam
Ride you are almost right

There is a major difference between an outfit that takes your money and dosent deliver a service (the scammers) and a company that does deliver on their promise to buy your timeshare (or rather take your timeshare and your money) Then resell them to people like me and you

You are right these companies are not scamming me or you or the person that gave them the timeshare. and there is no problem when they are able to find a buyer...In fact I think that they are providing a valuable survice. The problem is when they cant find a buyer, load the unwanted stuff in a viking ship llc and push it out to sea....and wait for the POAs to foreclose

What I am suggesting is that the POAs beat these companies at their own game and offer a deed back program
 

Ridewithme38

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What I am suggesting is that the POAs beat these companies at their own game and offer a deed back program
i support this suggestion, definitely, for a resort that is no longer actively selling, they could literally hand out a sheet at check-in with listings of what weeks owners want to unload and offer them to anyone checking in for back MF's or if no back MF's any price the owner/HOA agrees upon

But with the 'viking ship llc' being the only option available for many owners....i have to say, i support that over ending someones livelihood with a foreclosure
 

ronparise

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i support this suggestion, definitely, for a resort that is no longer actively selling, they could literally hand out a sheet at check-in with listings of what weeks owners want to unload and offer them to anyone checking in for back MF's or if no back MF's any price the owner/HOA agrees upon

But with the 'viking ship llc' being the only option available for many owners....i have to say, i support that over ending someones livelihood with a foreclosure
I agree but we are paying for it through higher fees...we may not be getting scammed, but we are getting burned
 

Ridewithme38

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I agree but we are paying for it through higher fees...we may not be getting scammed, but we are getting burned
Either way, given to a pcc or sitting in foreclosure court we are paying the higher fees...Atleast with the PCC option, we aren't wreaking someones life...Just my opinion though

Ideally, the resorts will eventually learn deedback or assisting owners with sales is the best way to deal with it, but until then the fee's will keeping getting higher and the higher the fees the more people will have to bail
 

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PCC's are scammers. Period. And when the management companies that have announced it starting suing the PCC's and their clients for fraudulent transfers, that will be a great day!


We need to seperate the Scammers from the PCC's in this article....Not all PCC's are scammers....some are great companies that save people from bankruptcy

This was strictly a scam, they said they had a buyer for someones timeshare but no buyer appeared and the owner still held the Deed, even after paying for the service...Not all PCC's act this way, Some actually get you out of your deed with only a few thousand paid by the owner

I wish Communities like TUG would help with timeshare owners who need to get out by listing the Good PCC's that actually do as they say and listing those that are only a scam
 
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