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U.S.-Canada border restrictions extended until July 21

DannyTS

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Chris Selley: Welcome home, fully vaccinated Canadian adults! (But not your kids)
If Ottawa couldn't abide exempting children from quarantine, it could at least make medically and logically defensible quarantine rules



 

DannyTS

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Just for the record, Canada was not "slow" to the vaccination table. According to an article in this month's Maclean's Magazine, we were No. 4 in line to sign up for vaccines, despite that often-touted issue by certain conservative media. As a conservative I read that media, too. We ordered enough vaccines, multiple-times over, to fully vaccinate all Canadians. The issue was consistent and regular delivery.


It is not signing up for vaccines that counts but what gets delivered. Ottawa was asleep at the switch and for months we paid the price for a very slow roll out. Eventually we will have a higher vaccination rate than the US because Canadians are generally more open to the vaccine but that is owed to the population not to those in charge

How Ottawa utterly botched Canada's COVID vaccine acquisition
Despite spending more money on this pandemic than anyone else, Canada is lagging behind almost every other developed nation in vaccination numbers





About making the vaccine, it is not the "talent" that matters because we have plenty. In Canada we just did not have an Operation Warp Speed and we naively relied on other countries to help us. Even now, those that got the AZ vaccine are in a terrible situation, many do not know if they are going to get a second AZ dose or if it will be an mRNA vaccine, not to mention they do not know how their "cocktail" is going to be recognized when they travel abroad.
 

AJCts411

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whats the difference for a fully vaccinated traveler returning by Air and one by land? Scientifically nothing. Politically, great poll winner so plenty. And if anyone believes the propaganda of how families can mover across the land boarder for compassionate reasons they are drinking too much of the political kool aid. Fact is it is extremely difficult if not impossible, a long time consuming experience of red tape and political hurdles. The closure for the fully vaccinated is pure politics after the intense fear mongering in the press and the government. Even more offensive is those who used, quoted science, and the "experts" for backing the fear extending lock downs, and now choose to ignore it. just in case...
 

Brett

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whats the difference for a fully vaccinated traveler returning by Air and one by land? Scientifically nothing. Politically, great poll winner so plenty. And if anyone believes the propaganda of how families can mover across the land boarder for compassionate reasons they are drinking too much of the political kool aid. Fact is it is extremely difficult if not impossible, a long time consuming experience of red tape and political hurdles. The closure for the fully vaccinated is pure politics after the intense fear mongering in the press and the government. Even more offensive is those who used, quoted science, and the "experts" for backing the fear extending lock downs, and now choose to ignore it. just in case...

The "fear mongering" in the press and government -- thankfully the coronavirus is now done and finished and we are all safe
 

CanuckTravlr

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I think the comments on surveys from above are largely out of date, as the surveys were mostly taken when the 3rd wave was much higher. Cases have dropped dramatically with increasing vaccination, and popular support for opening the border is growing dramatically. It is still controversial, as some will want the risk to be 0 and some want the restrictions to be 0.

Here is an article about a very recent survey done in the last few days by Leger here in Canada. While down from the 80%+ numbers of March/April, it still shows a significant majority of Canadians want a phased, not a rushed, lifting of restrictions. The rate at which that phased lifting should happen, and what percentage want the border quickly reopened, will obviously vary depending upon whom you are asking, and wasn't specifically asked in the poll.

Two-thirds of Canadians say governments shouldn't lift all COVID-19 restrictions | CTV News

I have also provided the link to the full survey by Leger, referred to in the article. It includes a poll of both Americans and Canadians on their attitudes to the pandemic and the responses by government. It reveals both some interesting differences and similarities, as well as differences by age group.

Leger’s weekly survey presented by (netdna-ssl.com)

I do expect if new cases continue to drop and our vaccination rates increase, especially as they approach and pass US levels, that more will be receptive to opening the border. I am sure amongst the first would be fully-vaccinated Americans that can provide some type of verifiable documentation. It looks as if we will get there sooner than originally expected, and that is good news, even if it's not as fast as some would like to see it happen! :thumbup:
 

DannyTS

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Here is an article about a very recent survey done in the last few days by Leger here in Canada. While down from the 80%+ numbers of March/April, it still shows a significant majority of Canadians want a phased, not a rushed, lifting of restrictions. The rate at which that phased lifting should happen, and what percentage want the border quickly reopened, will obviously vary depending upon whom you are asking, and wasn't specifically asked in the poll.

Two-thirds of Canadians say governments shouldn't lift all COVID-19 restrictions | CTV News

I have also provided the link to the full survey by Leger, referred to in the article. It includes a poll of both Americans and Canadians on their attitudes to the pandemic and the responses by government. It reveals both some interesting differences and similarities, as well as differences by age group.

Leger’s weekly survey presented by (netdna-ssl.com)

I do expect if new cases continue to drop and our vaccination rates increase, especially as they approach and pass US levels, that more will be receptive to opening the border. I am sure amongst the first would be fully-vaccinated Americans that can provide some type of verifiable documentation. It looks as if we will get there sooner than originally expected, and that is good news, even if it's not as fast as some would like to see it happen! :thumbup:

Very interesting survey, it shows that a lot of people have been very affected by the pandemic (actually by the restrictions imposed by the government): health (people gained weight), financial and mental distress. It is just proving what some have been predicting from the very beginning, the cure has been worse than the disease.

Just because 69% do not want ALL the restrictions lifted right away, it does not mean anything to me in terms of border restrictions.
 

DannyTS

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The "fear mongering" in the press and government -- thankfully the coronavirus is now done and finished and we are all safe
You will never be safe, it does not matter you got two vaccines already, never stop worrying /s
 

youppi

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Before we get too arrogant you might want to know this

from Wikpidia

Derrick J. Rossi (born 5 February 1966),[1] is a Canadian stem cell biologist and entrepreneur. He is known for co-founding the biotechnology company Moderna.

Also the present ceo is French.

And the research is based on Hungarian

Katalin Karikó (Hungarian: Karikó Katalin, Hungarian pronunciation: [ˈkɒrikoː ˌkɒtɒlin]; born 17 January 1955) is a Hungarian biochemist who specializes in RNA-mediated mechanisms. Her research has been the development of in vitro-transcribed mRNA for protein therapies. She co-founded and was CEO of RNARx, from 2006 to 2013.[1] Since 2013, she has been a vice president and promoted to senior vice president in 2019 at BioNTech RNA Pharmaceuticals.[2] She is also an adjunct professor at the University of Pennsylvania.[1]

Karikó's work includes the scientific research of RNA-mediated immune activation, resulting in the co-discovery with American immunologist Drew Weissman of the nucleoside modifications that suppress the immunogenicity of RNA.[3][4][5] This is seen as permitting the therapeutic use of mRNA.[6] Together with Weissman, she holds U.S. patents for the application of non-immunogenic, nucleoside-modified RNA. This technology has been licensed by BioNTech and Moderna to develop their COVID-19 vaccines.[7]




Which leads us into the Pfizer vaccine that is actually the German company BioNTech technology.

Now let's look at the J&J

again from wikipedia

The Janssen or Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine is a COVID-19 vaccine[19] that was developed by Janssen Vaccines in Leiden, Netherlands,[20] and its Belgian parent company Janssen Pharmaceuticals,[21] subsidiary of American company Johnson & Johnson.[22][23]


Seems America seems to be quite behind in Vaccine development.
Exact. The German company, BioNTech, developed the vaccine. Pfizer was partner with them for their manufacturing capacity and conduct trials as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine

This is interesting articles about the contribution of the Canadian Dr Peter Cullis in the development of the LNP used to deliver encapsulated mRNA :

.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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whats the difference for a fully vaccinated traveler returning by Air and one by land? Scientifically nothing. Politically, great poll winner so plenty........
IMO - if the Winnipeg Jets had won the NHL North division , they would be playing Vegas in Chicago - due to the science.....

However the Habs won - so games 3-4 & 6 are in Montreal against a USA based team that is not required to quarantine.
[ nor are the Montreal players required to quarantine after their 2 trips to Las Vegas USA],

Your quote answers why -
LOL
**********
PS - I am glad that Montreal gets to play in front of a home crowd
 
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bizaro86

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Here is an article about a very recent survey done in the last few days by Leger here in Canada. While down from the 80%+ numbers of March/April, it still shows a significant majority of Canadians want a phased, not a rushed, lifting of restrictions. The rate at which that phased lifting should happen, and what percentage want the border quickly reopened, will obviously vary depending upon whom you are asking, and wasn't specifically asked in the poll.

Two-thirds of Canadians say governments shouldn't lift all COVID-19 restrictions | CTV News

I have also provided the link to the full survey by Leger, referred to in the article. It includes a poll of both Americans and Canadians on their attitudes to the pandemic and the responses by government. It reveals both some interesting differences and similarities, as well as differences by age group.

Leger’s weekly survey presented by (netdna-ssl.com)

I do expect if new cases continue to drop and our vaccination rates increase, especially as they approach and pass US levels, that more will be receptive to opening the border. I am sure amongst the first would be fully-vaccinated Americans that can provide some type of verifiable documentation. It looks as if we will get there sooner than originally expected, and that is good news, even if it's not as fast as some would like to see it happen! :thumbup:

That survey is recent, but the question they asked was about removing all restrictions. Given the question asked I don't think you can deduce anything about support for a gradual easing of travel restrictions.

The percentage of people who would support the complete elimination of all restrictions would be very different from the percentage would support allowing fully vaccinated travellers with a negative test to enter. The risk isn't comparable.
 

CanuckTravlr

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That survey is recent, but the question they asked was about removing all restrictions. Given the question asked I don't think you can deduce anything about support for a gradual easing of travel restrictions.

The percentage of people who would support the complete elimination of all restrictions would be very different from the percentage would support allowing fully vaccinated travellers with a negative test to enter. The risk isn't comparable.

If you re-read my comments, I did point out that the question of lifting of border restrictions was not specifically asked and the support for that would vary depending upon whom you asked. So neither you nor I can draw any conclusions about support for or against lifting of border restrictions, whether for fully-vaccinated travellers or anyone else.

I included the article and the full poll from Leger because it had some interesting comparisons about the pandemic and its personal effects, by both Americans and Canadians, and Canadians' overall support for not rushing the lifting of restrictions, which I felt was relevant to the discussion. Perhaps I could have been clearer that my final comments concerning support for the lifting of border restrictions are my own, based upon discussions I have had with my many contacts here.

You and those you talk to, based upon who they are and where they live, may feel differently. If you have a specific poll on the border restrictions, please feel free to post it. Without such a poll, it's just two anecdotally-based opinions.
 

bizaro86

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I agree no conclusion can be drawn from that, other than the number of Canadians in favor of an orderly but faster than currently planned opening of the border is at least as high as the number of Canadians in favor of no restrictions at all. Frankly the "no restrictions" number being that high surprised me.

I was responding more to this quote from you:

"The federal government, with the support of the provincial premiers, and most Canadians, has consistently said that the MAJORITY of Canadians must be fully vaccinated before non-essential US/Canada border and overseas visitor travel will happen."

I don't think your assertion that most Canadians support this policy is supportable. I can't prove it the other way either, but that certainly read to me like you had a source for that assertion.
 

clifffaith

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I'll say this - I do not see how JT can defend Canada's approach of being so slow to the vaccination party. I've been watching what is happening in the various U.S. exclaves and enclaves and Canada's reluctance to open the border at Point Roberts, WA is indefensible. Especially when other similar areas along the Canadian - U.S. border were granted exemptions.

A phased and orderly approach should be in action by now.

There is a very interesting article on the front page of today's Los Angeles Times about Point Roberts. Can't link it, but found this news segment from a few months ago https://www.cbsnews.com/news/point-roberts-washington-at-us-canada-border-endures-covid-lockdown/ The grocery store will close next month.
 

MULTIZ321

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A U.S. town marooned at the tip of a Canadian peninsula.


.

I Don't think this is behind a paywall


Richard
 

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"They" (i.e., the residents) don't have a choice in the matter.

Kurt

Why not? It's called a petition, or ultimately a unilateral declaration of secession. That's what happened in the 13 colonies in 1776. :p ;)

Point Roberts and the Northwest Angle exist due to surveying errors. They are anomalies that should not exist, but the US government and residents have never wanted to do anything to correct them. Now that something unusual has happened that has disrupted their "routine", they are complaining. Why can't the state provide ferry services and trucks to deliver essentials, or financial supports in the interim, like we are doing with many of our people here in Canada? The border is still open for essential commercial travel.

It is always easier to complain than to actually organize and pool resources to do something. Unfortunately, the residents also got little to no support from their respective state or federal governments. It's sad, because the residents ultimately end up paying the price.
 

PigsDad

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Why not? It's called a petition, or ultimately a unilateral declaration of secession. That's what happened in the 13 colonies in 1776. :p ;)
A petition from those few residents isn't going to change anything, be real. It is a Federal border and would take an act of Congress to change -- not going to happen.

Point Roberts and the Northwest Angle exist due to surveying errors.
So you are saying the border is not the 49th parallel at Point Roberts? It is an anomaly, not an error. Big difference.

As to the rest of your post, I agree. The state and US governments should have done much more to support them -- they pay US taxes just like the rest of our citizens.

Kurt
 

youppi

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A petition from those few residents isn't going to change anything, be real. It is a Federal border and would take an act of Congress to change -- not going to happen.


So you are saying the border is not the 49th parallel at Point Roberts? It is an anomaly, not an error. Big difference.

As to the rest of your post, I agree. The state and US governments should have done much more to support them -- they pay US taxes just like the rest of our citizens.

Kurt
Even if the 49th parallel has been chosen in the west to be the border, they should be more intelligent and leave this small piece to Canada like they did with the Vancouver Island (they didn't cut the Island in 2 pieces).

There is also strange thing at the border of the Minnesota and the Manitoba. The border went North and took a part of the Manitoba for any logical reason and when it came back to the 49th parallel, the border cut a small piece of the Manitoba similar to Point Roberts
1624651782195.png
 

Chrispee

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I think a lot of people here are arguing about Point Roberts without having any idea what Point Roberts is about. We're talking a bedroom community of 1100ish residents along with a whole bunch of Canadians who own vacation property there. Groceries and supplies are essential services so they would have been flowing across the land border throughout the pandemic. The fact of the matter is the residents aren't stranded, it's about a 20 min boat ride (pleasure craft) to Birch Bay without having to cross any borders.
 

bizaro86

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I think a lot of people here are arguing about Point Roberts without having any idea what Point Roberts is about. We're talking a bedroom community of 1100ish residents along with a whole bunch of Canadians who own vacation property there. Groceries and supplies are essential services so they would have been flowing across the land border throughout the pandemic. The fact of the matter is the residents aren't stranded, it's about a 20 min boat ride (pleasure craft) to Birch Bay without having to cross any borders.

But the only grocery store is on the brink of closing. The lack of the aforementioned Canadians visiting (and shopping) is probably a big factor there.
 

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A petition from those few residents isn't going to change anything, be real. It is a Federal border and would take an act of Congress to change -- not going to happen.


So you are saying the border is not the 49th parallel at Point Roberts? It is an anomaly, not an error. Big difference.

Kurt

Let me provide you with some historical context to explain my use of "anomalies" and "errors".

Point Roberts and the Northwest Angle are both anomalies today due to surveying assumptions and errors done in the nineteenth century that were relied upon in determining the current border. When the border was agreed upon in the early nineteenth century most of the land was relatively uninhabited and any official surveys were difficult to perform, erratic, rudimentary, or non-existent.

In 1818, the British and American governments agreed that the border would be set at the 49th parallel, from Lake-of-the-Woods to the Pacific Ocean. This boundary was formalized by treaty in 1846, but it was not actually surveyed in its entirety until 1870, by the joint boundary survey commissions.. It had always been assumed, based on an early survey, that the southern tip of Point Roberts was fully north of the 49th parallel.

A similar surveying error created the Northwest Angle in Minnesota. The description of where the actual boundary point lay at the 49th parallel on the western shore of Lake-of-the-Woods was somewhat confusing and resulted in it being further north than the actual 49th parallel.

As to whether either could become part of Canada, that would normally be up to the residents, with the concurrence of both the relevant state and the US Congress. I agree that is not likely to ever happen. Even if it was desired, it would be extraordinarily complex. However, you completely ignored my somewhat tongue-in-cheek comparison to the unilateral Declaration of Independence in 1776!

No one is suggesting the residents of Point Roberts are anything close to "oppressed" or governed under "tyranny". One might argue the case of "no taxation without services" as a modern-day equivalent of "no taxation without representation". Just kidding! But I do find it a little funny, and potentially hypocritical, that if the residents chose that route, you seem to think it is unacceptable.
 
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CanuckTravlr

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But the only grocery store is on the brink of closing. The lack of the aforementioned Canadians visiting (and shopping) is probably a big factor there.

Yes, that is most unfortunate, but I assume that is a commercial decision by its owners. Have the residents offered any help to the store to try and keep it operating until the border reopens?

What I have seen when reading about and seeing interviews from Point Roberts, seems to mostly be a lot of complaining, but very little action to solve the problems. What happened to American enterprise and resilience? There are many smaller communities in rural areas of Canada (and I assume in the USA as well) that have set up "co-op" style grocery stores run by volunteers when they cannot support a commercial grocery store.

I am empathetic to what they are facing, but this is really a problem they need to be taking up with their state and federal representatives. What have those authorities done to support this community? It is not really Canada's problem to solve. I think we have more than enough of our own. The richest nation on earth can't support a couple of thousand people in a very unusual situation in the middle of a pandemic? That is a pretty sad situation IMO.
 

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Let me provide you with some historical context to explain my use of "anomalies" and "errors".

Point Roberts and the Northwest Angle are both anomalies today due to surveying assumptions and errors done in the nineteenth century that were relied upon in determining the current border. When the border was agreed upon in the early nineteenth century most of the land was relatively uninhabited and any official surveys were difficult to perform, erratic, rudimentary, or non-existent.

In 1818, the British and American governments agreed that the border would be set at the 49th parallel, from Lake-of-the-Woods to the Pacific Ocean. This boundary was formalized by treaty in 1846, but it was not actually surveyed in its entirety until 1870, by the joint boundary survey commissions.. It had always been assumed, based on an early survey, that the southern tip of Point Roberts was fully north of the 49th parallel.

A similar surveying error created the Northwest Angle in Minnesota. The description of where the actual boundary point lay at the 49th parallel on the western shore of Lake-of-the-Woods was somewhat confusing and resulted in it being further north than the actual 49th parallel.

As to whether either could become part of Canada, that would normally be up to the residents, with the concurrence of both the relevant state and the US Congress. I agree that is not likely to ever happen. Even if it was desired, it would be extraordinarily complex. However, you completely ignored my somewhat tongue-in-cheek comparison to the unilateral Declaration of Independence in 1776!

No one is suggesting the residents of Point Roberts are anything close to "oppressed" or governed under "tyranny". One might argue the case of "no taxation without services" as a modern-day equivalent of "no taxation without representation". Just kidding! But I do find it a little funny, and potentially hypocritical, that if the residents chose that route, you seem to think it is unacceptable.
Wow, you are really putting words in my mouth. I think you totally misread everything I wrote. Just ending it here, since having a conversation with you is pointless. Have a good day.

Kurt
 
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