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Trust vs. Legacy Bucket no longer relevant?

larue

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I just spoke to a customer service agent at Vacation Club. In the course of discussing online access to the points system (during which he confirmed that the points system is being migrated online with some already having access and the remainder to have access by the end of the next week), I asked if I needed to be concerned about whether points I am renting are trust or legacy, as I am a legacy owner. He advised that they "just made a change in the system" that makes the distinction between trust vs. legacy points irrelevant. He followed up by saying that they now have permission to combine trust and legacy points for reservations without any restrictions.

Has anyone else heard anything similar? Pretty cool if it is true, though it would seem to undercut the sales tactic of claiming that the trust bucket points are limited to trust owners.
 
At this very minute (12/3/11 at 3:30 pm central time) the Marriott Vacation Club website is down "undergoing maintenance" which it has been for the better part of this afternoon. I'm guessing we'll see these changes online very soon.
 
I have been inquiring for lots of reservations (specific dates at specific resorts) for potential renters using my legacy points and nearly always was told that there is availability.

I got the impression that I can get nearly everything with my legacy points which sounds like this could be true.
 
He advised that they "just made a change in the system" that makes the distinction between trust vs. legacy points irrelevant. He followed up by saying that they now have permission to combine trust and legacy points for reservations without any restrictions.

They can do a lot to make Trust inventory and Enrolled weeks inventory weeks work together so that the distinction is minimized for the owners of each (and to owners who own both) when booking vacations with points.

However, legally they are different things. The inventory comes together in the Destination Points exchange program, but only to the extent that Trust owners opt for exchanges out of the Trust and Enrolled owners opt for points instead of using their weeks as weeks.

Owners of Trust points can reserve inventory owned by the Trust and inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Enrolled weeks can reserve those weeks or they can opt for points to be used for inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Trust points CANNOT access weeks inventory directly.

Owners of enrolled weeks CANNOT access Trust inventory directly.

Again, Marriott Vacation Club can do a lot to blur the distinctions that Enrolled weeks owners, trust owners, and Owner Services agents see — but the underlying computer system still has to comply with the legal rights of each category of owners.
 
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We were also told during our recent stay at Ocean Pointe (we toured Oceana Palms), that if you buy points you could make a reservation using both DC points and legacy points and they are all treated the same. The sales person even showed us the disclosure document that states this. Unfortunately I didn't note the section she was referring to. I still didn't believe it based on the experiences of Tuggers who had shared their experiences of trying to make a reservation. Of course, we didn't buy any points.
 
We were also told during our recent stay at Ocean Pointe (we toured Oceana Palms), that if you buy points you could make a reservation using both DC points and legacy points and they are all treated the same. The sales person even showed us the disclosure document that states this. Unfortunately I didn't note the section she was referring to. I still didn't believe it based on the experiences of Tuggers who had shared their experiences of trying to make a reservation. Of course, we didn't buy any points.

I was actually thinking of one of your earlier posts when I questioned the rep on this today and he replied that legacy owners could now access trust inventory without distinction, whether you buy trust points or not. He specifically and emphatically said this was something new that was just handed down to them and was going to make his job much easier finding weeks for legacy trust owners.
 
They can do a lot to make Trust inventory and Enrolled weeks inventory weeks work together so that the distinction is minimized for the owners of each (and to owners who own both) when booking vacations with points.

However, legally they are different things. The inventory comes together in the Destination Points exchange program, but only to the extent that Trust owners opt for exchanges out of the Trust and Enrolled owners opt for points instead of using their weeks as weeks.

Owners of Trust points can reserve inventory owned by the Trust and inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Enrolled weeks can reserve those weeks or they can opt for points to be used for inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Trust points CANNOT access weeks inventory directly.

Owners of enrolled weeks CANNOT access Trust inventory directly.

Again, Marriott Vacation Club can do a lot to blur the distinctions that Enrolled weeks owners, trust owners, and Owner Services agents see — but the underlying computer system still has to comply with the legal rights of each category of owners.


I like your explanation. Given that MVC has the ability to allow a legacy week owner to trade their week for dc points, is that how they get around the legal distinctions? In other words, if the trust document grants MVC the authority to acquire individual legacy weeks into the trust for purposes of filling requests (actual or hypothetical), it seems that there is no distinction as soon as MVC says they are willing to take your legacy week for points or your legacy points for trust points.
 
They can do a lot to make Trust inventory and Enrolled weeks inventory weeks work together so that the distinction is minimized for the owners of each (and to owners who own both) when booking vacations with points.

However, legally they are different things. The inventory comes together in the Destination Points exchange program, but only to the extent that Trust owners opt for exchanges out of the Trust and Enrolled owners opt for points instead of using their weeks as weeks.

Owners of Trust points can reserve inventory owned by the Trust and inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Enrolled weeks can reserve those weeks or they can opt for points to be used for inventory in the Destination Points exchange program.

Owners of Trust points CANNOT access weeks inventory directly.

Owners of enrolled weeks CANNOT access Trust inventory directly.

Again, Marriott Vacation Club can do a lot to blur the distinctions that Enrolled weeks owners, trust owners, and Owner Services agents see — but the underlying computer system still has to comply with the legal rights of each category of owners.

Perhaps they went to the old marbles. jars and cookies bit. This would permit direct access to trust inventory as long as there were trust points in the exchange company. In the past it seemed that Marriott was moving physical weeks to the exchange company when a trust owner used inventory from the Exchange Company. If they are now deposing points as a placeholder that can directly reserve trust inventory, that would be a huge improvement and still keep them holding to legal requirements.
 
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Perhaps they went to the old marbles. jars and cookies bit. This would permit direct access to trust inventory as long as there were trust points in the exchange company. In the past it seemed that Marriott was moving physical weeks to the exchange company when a trust owner used inventory from the Exchange Company. If they are now deposing points as a placeholder that can directly reserve trust inventory, that would be a huge improvement and still keep them holing to legal requirements.
Yes. I think that's it. If the Trust inventory in the exchange pool is represented by Trust points (rather than be deposited nights of inventory), the system would still remain whole.

It still means that Enrolled owners are dependent on Trust owners wanting to stay at properties that were sold as weeks to get Trust inventory into the exchange pool. And the success of those requests, in turn, is dependent on Enrolled owners at those resorts opting for points. There's no reason to think that either category of owners will lose interest in the inventory owned by the other category of owners.

Technically, an Enrolled owner is still exchanging into Trust inventory, not reserving Trust inventory. But that's a fine distinction.

We need to realize that a major factor in the future success of Marriott Vacation Club will be the ability for owners in both categories to get the vacations they want. Marriott Vacation Club has a strong business incentive to make both categories of owners happy.
 
The plain truth is, they can minimize the distinction to a point it's no longer evident to anyone using points, either trust or legacy. Other systems have this figured out. Marriott doesn't need to cut a new road. It's already been done.
 
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I have never really understood why the legacy and trust points would not be equal in what they could do. The way I see it, if you EXCHANGE your week for points, then the trust holds your week for that year and you get points to access the trust. It has always seemed to me that the required exchange was you giving up your week for points. Perhaps that is finally being acknowledged.
 
I have never really understood why the legacy and trust points would not be equal in what they could do. The way I see it, if you EXCHANGE your week for points, then the trust holds your week for that year and you get points to access the trust. It has always seemed to me that the required exchange was you giving up your week for points. Perhaps that is finally being acknowledged.
Let me suggest an extreme, hypothetical example of why Trust points still have to make it into the exchange pool before they can be booked by owners who opted for points with their Enrolled weeks:

Imagine a year when absolutely no owners of Enrolled weeks opt for points. (I told you this is an extreme, hypothetical example.) Trust owners would have no ability to book the inventory owned by those weeks owners. The weeks owners would expect to be able to use that inventory themselves. The Trust owners would not be able to book that inventory because none of it would have made it into the Destinations Points exchange pool. If you're a weeks owner, and Marriott Owners Services were to give your "inventory" (your week) and that of other owners at your resort to Trust owners, they would be stealing it from you.

It works the same way the other way around. Owners who now buy Marriott Destinations Points own points that are backed up by Trust inventory. They can reserve that Trust inventory. But as an Enrolled owner, I can't reserve that Trust inventory directly. I don't own it. (I only have access to Trust inventory that makes it to the exchange program.) Imagine a year when absolutely all Trust owners exclusively book Trust inventory and no Trust inventory goes to the exchange program. In this example, as an enrolled owner, I would not be able to exchange into Trust inventory, even if I opted for points. I would only be able to use my points to exchange into inventory from other Enrolled owners who opted for points.

Of course, this example will never happen. But this extreme case explains why there has to be an exchange program. Enrolled owners can't treat Trust inventory as if they own it, any more than Trust owners can treat traditional weeks as if they own them.

With an active, efficient exchange program (and diligent inventory management by MVC), owners in both categories don't have to be aware of the finer distinctions underlying the program. Enrolled owners and Trust owners use the same point charts and have access to the same resorts. In some cases, confirmations are immediate; in other case, waitlisting comes into play. We won't always get exactly what we want, but for those of us who don't mind some advance planning and flexibility, the system should work well.

However, that doesn't mean that any of us have direct access to what we don't own. For example, Trust owners only have access to weeks inventory at Marriott's Grande Ocean on Hilton Head to the extent that enrolled owners there opt for point, and I, as an Enrolled owner, only have access to Trust inventory to the extent that it makes it into the exchange program because Trust owners are initiating exchanges.

As noted earlier, "inventory" does not have to mean specific nights at specific resorts. It only has to be the "currency" to provide access into Trust inventory.

It gets more complicated when you consider factors such as inventory deposited into II (from the Trust side and the weeks side), as well as unsold Trust inventory that Marriott can use however they wish (including to prime the exchange program to build up its longterm health).
 
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Summarizing the points I've made in this thread:

  • The Destinations Club program should look seamless on the outside, while being legal on the inside.
  • The exchange program is a necessary component to facilitate Trust owners getting access to Enrolled inventory, and vice versa.
  • Under some circumstances (such as out-of-balance demand on either side), this could mean that inventory is not in the exchange program.
 
Summarizing the points I've made in this thread:

  • The Destinations Club program should look seamless on the outside, while being legal on the inside.
  • The exchange program is a necessary component to facilitate Trust owners getting access to Enrolled inventory, and vice versa.
  • Under some circumstances (such as out-of-balance demand on either side), this could mean that inventory is not in the exchange program.

Perfect. :)

I think the DC system so far is working well - enrollees are managing to get in-demand reservations on a fairly regular basis. That's the measure of success for an exchange company, isn't it?

It's mind-boggling to me how anybody could expect that Marriott could scrap the Trust Points/Enrolled Points/Exchange Company model and simply make Trust and Enrolled Points exactly the same in every way. The legal requirements that Marriott has to follow make it impossible to do so. They've figured out a system which allows Trust Points and Enrolled Points to functionally mingle for usage while satisfying the legal stipulations that differentiate their origins, and I'm happy they've done it. Things could be a lot worse - they could have introduced their Destination Club as a stand-alone system requiring new purchases for every user with no other opportunity for inclusion by existing Weeks owners, and no mingling among the different inventories not held by them.

I think the TUG discussion about the technically-incorrect things that the sales reps say about Trust and Enrolled Points will continue forever and we'll rehash this same thread over and over again from now until the end of time (just like we've been rehashing the reps' technically-incorrect comments about external resales forever!) The reps simply don't have enough knowledge about the product and/or the system to get it right. And why should they? They're sales people, that's their job. It wasn't their job to understand the legalities and write the technical components of the system and it's not their job to delve into those technicalities now that it's been introduced. All they need to know is that Trust and Enrolled Points do mingle in the Exchange Company, there are rules for reserving usage, and above all else, availability is not guaranteed. If they would just stick to those selling points in their presentations and refer the technical questions to the experts, the world would be a happier place. :rofl:
 
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I was actually thinking of one of your earlier posts when I questioned the rep on this today and he replied that legacy owners could now access trust inventory without distinction, whether you buy trust points or not. He specifically and emphatically said this was something new that was just handed down to them and was going to make his job much easier finding weeks for legacy trust owners.

That is great news. As you and others have posted, it is in MVC's best interest to make this system work for everyone involved.
 
Perhaps the biggest weakness of the DC points program is the communication fiasco that has accompanied its rollout. The story from Marriott seems to be ever-changing depending on who is talking at any given moment. Even now, 18 months later, the misinformation is rampant as demonstrated by two recent threads here on tug.

In one recent thread (see http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159510 ) owners learn from a sales presentation that the two buckets of points will never be merged. Only trust point owners will be able to stay at trust properties. Marriott is even going so far as to issue refunds for enrolled owners who did not properly understand the distinction between the two buckets.

Now in this thread we are being told the exact opposite thing - that the two buckets of points are being merged from a practical perspective and that enrolled vs trust owners should notice no difference when trying to make a points reservation at any property.

Sorry - but this DC thing is just a mess. I'm not willing to trust any promises made by Marriott's talking heads about how this program ~should~ work unless it is spelled-out in a legally binding contract. Promises made are promises broken.

Fortunately for us, we bought where we like to vacation. The concept of full-week vacations at our home resorts suits us quite well, so we have no need to subject ourselves to the fish oil products that MVCI is currently pushing.
 
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In an odd sort of way, the sales people who say, "There are two inventory pools that will never be merged," and those who say, "It's all one system," are both correct.

There is a 22-page document called "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." It differentiates between "Trust Members" and "Exchange Members" (enrolled owners) and describes the rights and responsibilities of the "Exchange Company."

The "Exchange Company" (technically "Marriott Resorts, Travel Company, Inc. d/b/a MVC Exchange Company, a Delaware corporation, as Exchange Company" according to the document) is there (among other reasons) to bring together the two inventory sources. There is currently a one-to-one correlation between "Affiliate Program points" (Trust points) and "Exchange Points," but they are not the same thing.

The "Exchange Company" has all sorts of legal rights to make changes, including changes that could be quite detrimental to some owners. But we have to assume that Marriott Vacation Club wants to achieve high owner satisfaction, and just because a right is there does not not mean the right would be exercised.

The document is written in legalese. It's anything but a clear description of how exchanges are facilitated. (The version of the document that I have on my drive is from 3/12/2010; perhaps there's now a newer version.)

Marriott needs to come up with clear, illustrated documents that describe the process in a way that sales people, Owner Services people, and owners can understand.
 
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...Therdifferentiates between "Trust Members" and "Exchange Members" (enrolled owners) and describes the rights and responsibilities of the "Exchange Company." e is a 22-page document called "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program." It
...
The document is written in legalese. It's anything but a clear description of how exchanges are facilitated. (The version of the document that I have on my drive is from 3/12/2010; perhaps there's now a newer version.)

There is a new document available, same stuff, just a little different. It is dated 1.27.2011.
 
Let me suggest an extreme, hypothetical example of why Trust points still have to make it into the exchange pool before they can be booked by owners who opted for points with their Enrolled weeks:

Imagine a year when absolutely no owners of Enrolled weeks opt for points. (I told you this is an extreme, hypothetical example.) Trust owners would have no ability to book the inventory owned by those weeks owners. The weeks owners would expect to be able to use that inventory themselves. The Trust owners would not be able to book that inventory because none of it would have made it into the Destinations Points exchange pool. If you're a weeks owner, and Marriott Owners Services were to give your "inventory" (your week) and that of other owners at your resort to Trust owners, they would be stealing it from you.

It works the same way the other way around. Owners who now buy Marriott Destinations Points own points that are backed up by Trust inventory. They can reserve that Trust inventory. But as an Enrolled owner, I can't reserve that Trust inventory directly. I don't own it. (I only have access to Trust inventory that makes it to the exchange program.) Imagine a year when absolutely all Trust owners exclusively book Trust inventory and no Trust inventory goes to the exchange program. In this example, as an enrolled owner, I would not be able to exchange into Trust inventory, even if I opted for points. I would only be able to use my points to exchange into inventory from other Enrolled owners who opted for points.

Of course, this example will never happen. But this extreme case explains why there has to be an exchange program. Enrolled owners can't treat Trust inventory as if they own it, any more than Trust owners can treat traditional weeks as if they own them.

With an active, efficient exchange program (and diligent inventory management by MVC), owners in both categories don't have to be aware of the finer distinctions underlying the program. Enrolled owners and Trust owners use the same point charts and have access to the same resorts. In some cases, confirmations are immediate; in other case, waitlisting comes into play. We won't always get exactly what we want, but for those of us who don't mind some advance planning and flexibility, the system should work well.

However, that doesn't mean that any of us have direct access to what we don't own. For example, Trust owners only have access to weeks inventory at Marriott's Grande Ocean on Hilton Head to the extent that enrolled owners there opt for point, and I, as an Enrolled owner, only have access to Trust inventory to the extent that it makes it into the exchange program because Trust owners are initiating exchanges.

As noted earlier, "inventory" does not have to mean specific nights at specific resorts. It only has to be the "currency" to provide access into Trust inventory.

It gets more complicated when you consider factors such as inventory deposited into II (from the Trust side and the weeks side), as well as unsold Trust inventory that Marriott can use however they wish (including to prime the exchange program to build up its longterm health).

I do not agree with your "extreme, hypothetical example." This is because if the legacy owner exchanges his week for points, then the legacy week is already exchanged and should be available to anyone who has points. The exchange has already happened at that point. The legacy owner has in effect exchanged his week for the equivalent of trust points. The week is then available to trust owners and the trust is available to that legacy owner. If no legacy owners exchange for points, neither legacy points or trust points can reserve it because there are no legacy points. Points should therefore be the same in what they can access at any given time. It may be no access or it may be easy access, but I do not see why there would be a difference.
 
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I do not agree with your "extreme, hypothetical example."
Sorry. I did my best to come with an example that would show the concept by taking it to it extreme.

I tried to explain why legacy (Enrolled) owners who have opted for points cannot use those "Exchange Points" to book Trust inventory directly. It's the same reason that Trust owners cannot grab a week that you own directly. In both cases, the owned inventory first needs to become inventory in the "Exchange Company" represented by "Exchange Points." Whether you're a legacy (Enrolled) owner or a Trust owner, you can only book what you own or what's in the "Exchange Company."

Legacy (Enrolled) owners put inventory from weeks into the "Exchange Company" by opting for points. Trust owners put inventory from the Trust into the "Exchange Company" by making exchanges through the "Exchange Company."

The key point is that "Affiliate Program points" (Trust points) and "Exchange Points" are not the same thing. They can't be the same thing because Trust inventory is legally owned by Trust owners (and by Marriott Vacations Worldwide in the case of unsold Trust inventory).

Did you know that the current one-to-one correlation between "Affiliate Program points" (Trust points) and "Exchange Points" can be changed by the "Exchange Company" according to the document?
 
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I have never really understood why the legacy and trust points would not be equal in what they could do. The way I see it, if you EXCHANGE your week for points, then the trust holds your week for that year and you get points to access the trust. It has always seemed to me that the required exchange was you giving up your week for points. Perhaps that is finally being acknowledged.


When you EXCHANGE your week for points, the exchange company holds your week - NOT the Trust.

The points you receive for that week may be used as currency in the exchange company store only. (Trust point owners can shop in either store.)

I do not agree with your "extreme, hypothetical example." This is because if the legacy owner exchanges his week for points, then the legacy week is already exchanged and should be available to anyone who has points.

It is

The exchange has already happened at that point. The legacy owner has in effect exchanged his week for the equivalent of trust points.

No - - the weeks owner has exchanged his week for exchange company points. They may have equivalent purchasing power to trust points, but the exchange company is a different store . . . which has a different inventory . . . and may include many of the same items as the trust.


The week is then available to trust owners

Because it is in the exchange company and can be accessed by Trust point owners

and the trust is available to that legacy owner.

No. This is where you should reread GregT post on inventory management because how the trust interacts with the exchange company is key to the mechanics of the process.

LINK

Werner's example of what might happen in an extreme situation is an example of reductio ad absurdum and is spot on.

Note that the source of this 'new' information regarding the trust v exchange co distinction comes from a salesperson. Salespeople have not proven to be the most reliable sources in the past.

If, however, what he is relating has some modicum of truth, then I speculate that VAC has probably come to the conclusion that addressing the inventory management issues raised in Greg's post may help DC.
 
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Werner's example of what might happen in an extreme situation is an example of reductio ad absurdum and is spot on.
Whoa, professor. When I have to pull out my latin dictionary to decipher the DC discussion, I know I'm in over my head.
 
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When you EXCHANGE your week for points, the exchange company holds your week - NOT the Trust.

The points you receive for that week may be used as currency in the exchange company store only. (Trust point owners can shop in either store.)



Werner's example of what might happen in an extreme situation is an example of reductio ad absurdum and is spot on.

Note that the source of this 'new' information regarding the trust v exchange co distinction comes from a salesperson. Salespeople have not proven to be the most reliable sources in the past.

If, however, what he is relating has some modicum of truth, then I speculate that VAC has probably come to the conclusion that addressing the inventory management issues raised in Greg's post may help DC.

Part of the MVC agent's duties undoubtedly include sales but that was not the purpose of my call and he was not making any pitch whatsoever to sell me trust points. To the contrary, his statement that trust v. legacy was no longer relevant contradicts the primary sales strategy employed by virtually every MVC sales agent whose statements have been reported on here by others.
 
Part of the MVC agent's duties undoubtedly include sales but that was not the purpose of my call and he was not making any pitch whatsoever to sell me trust points. To the contrary, his statement that trust v. legacy was no longer relevant contradicts the primary sales strategy employed by virtually every MVC sales agent whose statements have been reported on here by others.

My apologies - I read your post, but not carefully enough. Still, I'm from MIssouri (the show me state) on all this.

Show me, . . . in writing, . . . in plain english.
 
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