Timeshare Traveler Episode 90... Book Marriott cheaper by using WorldMark and Interval International

[Clifbell]

Have you ever wanted to Book a Marriott vacation and you are a WorldMark Owner? Or maybe, Like me, you own WorldMark and Marriott and you find the Maintenance fees for Marriott too high, but you like the Marriott Resorts. Well, there is a solution for you and that is to use your WorldMark Ownership to book Marriott locations.

In this video, I will show you how to do that. I use the examples of Las Vegas and Orlando, but you can do the same in many parts of the country. You tend to book the units in the off peak season, but that is when I like to travel when the points are less. I hope you enjoy saving money, because this video is all about that.

Timeshare Traveler Episode 90... Book Marriott cheaper by using WorldMark and Interval International

Map of all my timeshare reviews

 

[ocdb8r]

Cliff - appreciate your posts, but I think you need to caveat this with a few things:

1) Worldmark MFs are not $90/1000 points until you hit at least 20k points owned;
2) You don't include any considerations around potential housekeeping upcharges on the Worldmark side;
3) Your Las Vegas example can be booked for only 3,000 MVC DPs using their interval chart;
4) You assume everyone's DP MF per point are the pure points cost (most Tuggers own a mix of weeks that convert to points at a lower MF cost);
5) You don't take into account the possibility of simply exchanging in II with a MVC week (if your primary desire is to exchange into Orlando and Vegas during medium to low demand periods, I am sure you could do better with a variety of MVC resale weeks traded in II).

I get it...the last two points you might find irrelevant as you were trying to make a very specific comparison of WM points in II vs. DP points only ownership; but we could all devise situations where one option looks better than the other. A more balanced view would be useful.

 

[dioxide45]

Also missing is the fact that most Orlando Marriott weeks can be bought on II getaway for less than $500 for most off season weeks.

 

[Eric B]

1) Worldmark MFs are not $90/1000 points until you hit at least 20k points owned;

If you own a red non-WorldMark 2 BR week at one of the lower cost resorts that exchange in II or RCI, you can use Exchange Plus to get WorldMark credits for ~ $60/1000 credits regardless of how many WorldMark credits you own. That includes one HK token and one guest certificate. The sweet spot is probably having a 5K WorldMark account and getting credits that way, though I am over 20K. Timeshare Arbitrage is a good thing once you figure it out, provided you're happy with shoulder season stays.

 

[paxlin]

If you own a red non-WorldMark 2 BR week at one of the lower cost resorts that exchange in II or RCI, you can use Exchange Plus to get WorldMark credits for ~ $60/1000 credits regardless of how many WorldMark credits you own. That includes one HK token and one guest certificate. The sweet spot is probably having a 5K WorldMark account and getting credits that way, though I am over 20K. Timeshare Arbitrage is a good thing once you figure it out, provided you're happy with shoulder season stays.

Wow, I just learned something new for Worldmark today. I've had Worldmark for years, but never knew about Exchange Plus program.
Do you know if the credits from Exchange Plus are treated like developer credits? i.e., are they good for reserving south pacific resorts?

 

[ocdb8r]

If you own a red non-WorldMark 2 BR week at one of the lower cost resorts that exchange in II or RCI, you can use Exchange Plus to get WorldMark credits for ~ $60/1000 credits regardless of how many WorldMark credits you own.

....right, but there are very few resorts in II that permit this sort of arbitrage and you've still got to have the 5k credit account (with relatively uneconomical mf/point ratio) and pay the Exchange Plus fee.

Not to mention, that if you own one of these resorts you could just as easily USE the deposit in II rather than Exchange Plus to get the WorldMark credits to then use in II. Outside of the II/WorldMark 60-day "flexchange" I don't see the opportunity for much arbitrage using Exchange Plus to generate credits for the purpose Cliff's episode is about.

 

[kozykritter]

Why is it we so often punish the poster on here when they were just trying to help us? That was his intent, regardless of your opinion of the info he shared. Let's lighten up the way we respond, in the name of community spirit.

 

[ocdb8r]

Why is it we so often punish the poster on here when they were just trying to help us? That was his intent, regardless of your opinion of the info he shared. Let's lighten up the way we respond, in the name of community spirit.

I don't think anything I said was overly harsh nor did I attack the poster (Cliff) personally in any way; I simply stated some facts and indicated a more balanced presentation of the options and costs would be useful. I even made it clear I appreciate Cliff's posts/episodes.

I firmly agree this place is about "community" but community also includes reasonable presentation of alternate views.

 

[kozykritter]

Definitely beneficial to clarify information but I do feel that you could review your tone in some of your responses and consider perhaps softening it (i e. "what Cliff isn't letting you in on"). Otherwise we risk creating an environment where people are hesitant to share information in the first place for fear of feeling attacked and then the value of this medium of communication diminishes.

 

[dioxide45]

Definitely beneficial to clarify information but I do feel that you could review your tone in some of your responses and consider perhaps softening it (i e. "what Cliff isn't letting you in on"). Otherwise we risk creating an environment where people are hesitant to share information in the first place for fear of feeling attacked and then the value of this medium of communication diminishes.

It is also quite possible that Cliff wasn't aware of the Exchange Plus option available for some resorts. I still don't even understand what it is after reading about it in this thread.

 

[ocdb8r]

Definitely beneficial to clarify information but I do feel that you could review your tone in some of your responses and consider perhaps softening it (i e. "what Cliff isn't letting you in on"). Otherwise we risk creating an environment where people are hesitant to share information in the first place for fear of feeling attacked and then the value of this medium of communication diminishes.

My second post wasn't directed at Cliff as it wasn't the point of his episode. Edited to ensure no one is un-necessarily offended.

 

[Eric B]

Wow, I just learned something new for Worldmark today. I've had Worldmark for years, but never knew about Exchange Plus program.
Do you know if the credits from Exchange Plus are treated like developer credits? i.e., are they good for reserving south pacific resorts?

I believe they are treated as developer credits if you have such an account. It would be covered in the TENS agreement. I don't have any developer credits, so don't know for sure.

....right, but there are very few resorts in II that permit this sort of arbitrage and you've still got to have the 5k credit account (with relatively uneconomical mf/point ratio) and pay the Exchange Plus fee.

Not to mention, that if you own one of these resorts you could just as easily USE the deposit in II rather than Exchange Plus to get the WorldMark credits to then use in II. Outside of the II/WorldMark 60-day "flexchange" I don't see the opportunity for much arbitrage using Exchange Plus to generate credits for the purpose Cliff's episode is about.

You'd be surprised how many resorts everywhere allow for that sort of arbitrage. My statement re: the cost was taking into account the Exchange Plus fee.

WRT the use of one of those resorts directly, I'm well aware of the possibility. WorldMark deposits can sometimes draw more/higher quality results in II. Outside of II, I do quite well using my WorldMark account; last year I managed to get an April week in the Ritz Carlton in STT using a week at Massanutten via WorldMark and ThirdHome; total cost was less than $1700. The arbitrage opportunities are out there if you figure out the relative exchange rates.

 

[ocdb8r]

You'd be surprised how many resorts everywhere allow for that sort of arbitrage. My statement re: the cost was taking into account the Exchange Plus fee.

I guess there's something about the system I don't understand or there's some secret stash of II resorts with maintenance fees for a red 2-bed week at $360 or less (or a 3-bed at $420 or less), because that's the only way I see the math working out to $60/1000 WM credits.

 

[dioxide45]

I guess there's something about the system I don't understand or there's some secret stash of II resorts with maintenance fees for a red 2-bed week at $360 or less (or a 3-bed at $420 or less), because that's the only way I see the math working out to $60/1000 WM credits.

Yeah. Looking at the information from Worldmark on this. There is a $129 application fee for Exchange Plus. A Red 2BR gets 8,000 credits. You would need a $375 MF to get anywhere close to $60/1000.

 

[Eric B]

There are definitely circumstances in which that analysis would be spot on. However, in addition to the credits, you get one housekeeping token and one guest confirmation for each week you Exchange Plus into WorldMark. An HK token would otherwise cost about $130 (varying by unit size) and guest confirmations cost $99. I don’t use many GCs, but the HK token has value to me independent from the credits. Also, WM isn’t limited to II, but also takes RCI weeks.

If I owned one of the old grandfathered no housekeeping contracts with WorldMark, I would not value the HK tokens, but as it is, they are worth somewhere around $60-70 to me in my usage patterns. YMMV, of course, but you can’t ignore the yolks that come with the egg whites and folks that garden or raise chickens use the shells, too.

 

[dioxide45]

There are definitely circumstances in which that analysis would be spot on. However, in addition to the credits, you get one housekeeping token and one guest confirmation for each week you Exchange Plus into WorldMark. An HK token would otherwise cost about $130 (varying by unit size) and guest confirmations cost $99. I don’t use many GCs, but the HK token has value to me independent from the credits. Also, WM isn’t limited to II, but also takes RCI weeks.

If I owned one of the old grandfathered no housekeeping contracts with WorldMark, I would not value the HK tokens, but as it is, they are worth somewhere around $60-70 to me in my usage patterns. YMMV, of course, but you can’t ignore the yolks that come with the egg whites and folks that garden or raise chickens use the shells, too.

But the HK token would be burnt up by simply using one or more of the WM credits they give you from Exchange Plus. So that really isn't a lot of value since you don't do this unless you plan to use those credits. I don't think you can take those HK and GC into consideration when determining the cost per 1000 credits?

 

[Eric B]

But the HK token would be burnt up by simply using one or more of the WM credits they give you from Exchange Plus. So that really isn't a lot of value since you don't do this unless you plan to use those credits. I don't think you can take those HK and GC into consideration when determining the cost per 1000 credits?

Again, it all depends on the usage pattern. For example, if I EP two red 2 BR weeks I get 16,000 credits, 2 HKs and 2 GCs. Thereafter, if I use 14,000 credits for a higher quality more desirable week in WorldMark, I have 2,000 credits, 1 HK and 2 GCs left. If I've used that 14,000 credit week in an independent third party exchange, I would use one of the GCs and still have the other left. I've done that in the past and when that sort of thing happens, I place some value on the HK - not the full cost because I get a certain number free without extra charge through my normal contract with the allotted credits, but the extra HK does allow me to book an extra stay sometime in the next year also without an extra charge. It would be foolish to completely ignore that value IMHO; it would also be a bit of a stretch to give it the full cost from the developer because it's not an absolute certainty that I'll use it (though I always have). When can quibble about whether the best cost per credit is because it's not an objective value that will be the same for everyone, but my estimates would put it in the range of $0.055-$0.07 for the resorts I've used through Exchange Plus with WorldMark - no way in heck would I do that with a more costly one because I do the math in order to try to optimize my vacation dollar use.

This has all been a bit off the topic from Cliff's video, but I'm generally targeting a lot higher end resorts or vacation homes than the Marriotts in Orlando - I can get those through II a lot more simply. You can get to those using WorldMark or other more commonly held independent timeshares that aren't as costly if you do your homework.

 

[dioxide45]

So it seems there is some fuzzy math to get the cost per credit down to $60/1000 using Exchange Plus? If I own 8000 credits outright, don't I also get a HK and a GC included with that?

 

[Eric B]

So it seems there is some fuzzy math to get the cost per credit down to $60/1000 using Exchange Plus? If I own 8000 credits outright, don't I also get a HK and a GC included with that?

Some might take that characterization as a bit pejorative, but I'll give it a pass. If you own a 8K contract, it will come with 8,000 credits, 1 HK and 1 GC. It will cost you $993.91 per year in dues as of 2022. Housekeeping fees vary by unit size (as I previously mentioned) between $79 for a studio and $174 for a 4 BR week with a 2 BR costing $120. You could calculate your cost per credit as being $993.91/8,000 = $0.1242.... If you rent additional credits from another owner, which you can up to twice your contract size, they will not come with any HK tokens because WM eliminated the ability to transfer those. As a result, if you were able to rent the additional credits at a cost of $0.10 each, which isn't out of the ball park, and thereafter made a reservation for a 3 BR week that used the 16,000 credits, your out of pocket cost would be $1,600 for the credits plus $132 for the HK for a total of $1,732 for the week. If, on the other hand, you were to have deposited two red 2 BR weeks that cost you $400 each plus the two EP fees, you would have spent $800 on MFs, $258 on EP fees and nothing on exchange fees for a total of $1,058, leaving you with 1 HK and 2 GCs. You can figure out what you want to value the cost of the credits as being, but in the end the you got the week for less than it would have cost to rent the credits and buy the HK. If you ignore the extra HK in your pocket and the need to pay for the HK you used, $1,058/16,000 gives me about $0.066 per credit. If I value the extra HK at $120 based on a typical 2 BR usage, ($1,058-120)/16,000 gives me $0.058625 per credit. I'm happy with the range I quoted and recognize that, as in all things timeshare, Your Mileage May Vary. That's why I quoted it as a range - the more useful numbers I look at are the cost per week or per night for a stay somewhere that I want to go, though the per credit costs are useful in helping pick what "currency" to use for a trade.

I'm looking forward to new horizons for optimizing my usages with the advent of Abound and HGV Max adding new exchange rates to take into account.

 

[ocdb8r]

None of this math makes any sense in the context of Cliff's post/episode, and more importantly your assertion that you can "use Exchange Plus to get WorldMark credits for ~ $60/1000 credits regardless of how many WorldMark credits you own":

1) you've not provided a single example of an II resort with MFs that generate this value;

2) you get a SINGLE HK token for every Exchange Plus transaction you do; you need a HK for anything you book; as such "valuing" the HK token for potential use in another transaction makes no sense as you can only generate additional WorldMark credits (to complete such transaction) by:
- Doing another Exchange Plus (in which case you get another HK token anyhow);
- Renting credits (at a far higher cost of $100/1000 per what you say above...and so your average cost for credit gets even worse);
- Owning more credits, the MF for which are at a higher cost than $60/1000...and so your average cost for credit again gets even worse)

3) none of your examples have anything to do with using your WM credits in II, which was the whole basis of the episode;

4) None of this takes into account that you must first OWN some level of WM membership in order to generate credits in any of these other ways....and MFs for a 5k account are $160/1000 points.

I'm not trying to dispute that there are arbitrage opportunities out there, nor that you may be able to get some great weeks using WM credits for much less than MVC/Vistana direct. I just don't think an unreasonable expectation should be pushed.

 

[Eric B]

None of this math makes any sense in the context of Cliff's post/episode, and more importantly your assertion that you can "use Exchange Plus to get WorldMark credits for ~ $60/1000 credits regardless of how many WorldMark credits you own":

1) you've not provided a single example of an II resort with MFs that generate this value;

2) you get a SINGLE HK token for every Exchange Plus transaction you do; you need a HK for anything you book; as such "valuing" the HK token for potential use in another transaction makes no sense as you can only generate additional WorldMark credits (to complete such transaction) by:
- Doing another Exchange Plus (in which case you get another HK token anyhow);
- Renting credits (at a far higher cost of $100/1000 per what you say above...and so your average cost for credit gets even worse);
- Owning more credits, the MF for which are at a higher cost than $60/1000...and so your average cost for credit again gets even worse)

3) none of your examples have anything to do with using your WM credits in II, which was the whole basis of the episode;

4) None of this takes into account that you must first OWN some level of WM membership in order to generate credits in any of these other ways....and MFs for a 5k account are $160/1000 points.

I'm not trying to dispute that there are arbitrage opportunities out there, nor that you may be able to get some great weeks using WM credits for much less than MVC/Vistana direct. I just don't think an unreasonable expectation should be pushed.

Sometimes it's just not worth sharing information with some people because of a lack of a common understanding of what is being said.

My initial posting was to provide context for the idea that $90 per 1,000 WorldMark credits is not necessarily limited to people with large WorldMark accounts. I did not limit the resorts used as a source for the program to II; that thought was introduced elsewhere and does not match my experience with actually using the program

My analysis of the costs was based on marginal costs of WorldMark credits when using the Exchange Plus program and how doing so easily gets them at less than $90 per 1,000 credits (the term that is commonly used in WorldMark rather than points). Even without taking into account that my usage patterns generate excess value in the form of unused HK tokens, my costs are much less than $90 per 1,000 credits. My assessment (or fuzzy math if you prefer) is that the marginal costs are between $50 and $70 per 1,000 credits and I do not make that assessment in the context of Cliff's posting because I do not limit my usage to FLEXCHANGE within 60 days to avoid using an HK token. If I did that, I would assess the marginal costs lower because of the value of the remaining token.

Since my input to the conversation garnered such a negative response, I will no longer attempt to share my experiences on the use of Exchange Plus in WorldMark. It's pretty out of the scope of the Marriott forum anyway and I clearly do not have a common understanding of how to account for my personal expenditures in timesharing with the folks that frequent this forum.

 

[amycurl]

Of course, you could buy a strong, unbranded trader that will also pull Marriott weeks. This other method seems overly complicated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Clifbell]

It is also quite possible that Cliff wasn't aware of the Exchange Plus option available for some resorts. I still don't even understand what it is after reading about it in this thread.

No... I don't understand the exchange plus.... but I want to understand it.... You never know what you can learn... I didn't even know I could get good deals through II with WorldMark a few months ago.... I'll Gladly learn about exchange plus.... Doing research now. The more you work the systems with the experts from the TUG the better your life gets.... Period!!!!

 

[pedro47]

Thanks for your tips.