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Time variations and lack of interest [Help with Wyndham][merged]

Sandgroper

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:crash: :crash:
I'm a newbie, just 6 months as an owner.I bought into the Beachwalk in Waikiki however I live in western australia. Well I have been attempting to check availability for oct/nov this year, just a couple of weeks, so I can show the kids how beautiful Hawaii is. Do you think I can get any support. There is a time difference of some 18 hours. Everytime I log on to Wyndham the site is closed for maintenance. I have several contacts at the Beachwalk and have asked for help. I received an email to phn this number *** that will handle international club owners. No matter when I ring I only get a message in spanish and english saying to go online. :shrug: I have contacted their quality assurance and the main desk in Waikiki and still no replies. I must say I'm am very disappointed and ready to walk. I am now seriously considering selling this property but even then no one would reply to assist me. What does one do? Any other internationals have similar problems?
 

DeniseM

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WKORV, WKV, SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim) NEW: 2 Lawa'i Beach Resort!
The sad truth is that Wyndham points are going for pennies on the dollar on the resale market, so I recommend that you hang around with us and find out how to get the most out of your ownership.
 

ronparise

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The wyndham site is closed every night (US east coast time) from 11:45 pm until 7am

so if its 9:45 pm here, its 10:45 am where you are (I think) and the Wyndham site will go down for the night in 2 hours and re open 7 hours and 15 minutes later;... 6pm your time (I think)

Try it tonight after 6pm (or 7 or 8) and I bet it works for you...

Good luck mate
 

ausman

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As Ron pointed out the time difference for Perth? and east coast US is currently 13 hrs, Perth being ahead .

I like timeanddate.com for the daylight savings transition times especially but it is useful for a lot of things and perhaps would be of use to you.

Anyway, you will have to steal a few minutes away while at work and just access the Wyndham site to see what is available.

You actually have a very favourable time difference.
 

Sandgroper

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Thanks mate

The wyndham site is closed every night (US east coast time) from 11:45 pm until 7am

so if its 9:45 pm here, its 10:45 am where you are (I think) and the Wyndham site will go down for the night in 2 hours and re open 7 hours and 15 minutes later;... 6pm your time (I think)

Try it tonight after 6pm (or 7 or 8) and I bet it works for you...

Good luck mate

Appereciate your info, I'll give it a try tonight and see what happens.

avagooday.
 

Sandgroper

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RCI Extra vacation Certificates.

:shrug: I am a Wyndham owner. When I purchased our TS I received bonus certificates for RCI. The certificate seems only to be valid in certain US states. I would like to use these in Hawaii or in Asia (Phuket). has anyone had any experience using these in these locations?

Also the contact number 887-968**** doesn't say where it is? Is this eastern time, central or what as I am located in Australia and time zones are critical to know.

Thanks :confused:
 

lprstn

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They aren't that easy to use for prime spots/times. But call and have a variety of blocks of dates available for travel. You have to be flexible.
 

Sandgroper

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Why is there no resale value?

I bought a timeshare at Waikiki Beach Walk earlier this year,deeded and I paid cash.
I thought that this would serve as a form of investment and I would be able to recoup my money if I needed to sell.
I'm really supprised at what I see going on, people selling properties for little or nothing even giving them away. Why?
Is it that buyers take over someone's morgage payments. Or people can no logner afford maintenance fees (due to GFC) and walk away. I don't understand and feel foolish for buying now. :wall:
 

vckempson

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Simply put, more sellers than buyers. More often than not, the sellers want out from under the obligation of ongoing MF's. Even giving a timeshare away releases you from those obligations. Ebay has also had a negative effect on valuations. It's great for buyers but not for sellers.

Much of what you find on Ebay are sales by PCC's (post card companies), so called for sending out post card solicitations to people who might want out of their timeshares. Ultimately people pay them, (unwisely), several thousand dollars just to get rid of them. The pcc's then put them on ebay and will sometimes include free closings and the current year's usage to the buyer. The pcc's have, after all, already received their profit from the upfront fee paid by the prior owner to unload it. There's the 30 second version of what can be a long conversation.

Don't feel bad about your purchase. Learn how to use it to your best and enjoy your vacations. Many here paid full freight before finding tug.
 
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Gophesjo

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Also, while a timeshare is a deeded real property interest, it is not a property interest that is truly similar to a 'wholly-owned' property ownership interest, if you will. It is more similar to a condominium interest. While investment in land, or a 'wholly-owned' ownership property can often be (though perhaps not since 2008) considered a reasonable investment, condominium ownership has always been considered to be a much less attractive - except in highly speculative markets - investment. Its because what you really own and control is the right to use an interior space for a defined interval. Alltogether too often, I think, people who buy timeshares think, "I own luxury real estate," which while technically correct, is not really like wholly owning a beach house or a house near the slopes.
 

ronparise

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There are several ways to value a timeshare,

1) replacement value: A nice condominium on the beach might cost $300 to $400 a square foot to develop and build, or about $350000. A timeshare splits that cost 52 ways so a week might be worth as much as $6000

2) income value: If my maintenance fees and my cost basis amortized over a number of years is less than what I might be able to rent it for, I am willing to pay for that profit potential . The problem is you can rent a nice timeshare property for less than the maintenance fees. Which means that, from an income approach, the timeshare worth less than zero. there are exceptions and I buy some of them, but I want to rent for twice my maintenance fees and I dont like to pay more than a weeks rent, ie less than $2000.

3) market value approach: A piece of real estate (timeshares included) is worth exactly as much as someone is willing to pay for it. When it comes to timeshares, thats not much

Now just because something is not worth much in dollars that dosent mean it dosent have value. My high school yearbook, now nearly 50 years old, has no dollar value (unless you are a fan of John Heard, the actor) but I keep it, it has value to me. Your timeshare purchace can be that way for you...Think of all the memories of great family vacations you will have years from now.

Of course if you want a second week Id like to introduce you to ebay
 

Cheryl20772

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Is it that buyers take over someone's morgage payments. Or people can no logner afford maintenance fees (due to GFC) and walk away. I don't understand and feel foolish for buying now. :wall:

Welcome to TUG and you are not alone. We bought a week at a Daytona beachside resort and bought twice into Wyndham points. Then, when we were being tempted to upgrade our Wyndham points again, we were lucky to find the forums. Wow! Were we feeling stupid. We thought it wise to "invest" in timeshare rather than buy a house in Florida. We wouldn't have to worry about maintenance or finding someone to rent it when we weren't there. We got that part of the deal right, but the "invest" part was completely wrong! So now we have spent some time learning how to best use what we own and learning how we may divest our selves later on, if we need to.

In today's market, someone who owes a mortgage for a timeshare; and has to get rid of it, is really in trouble. When you have to pay someone to take a paid off timeshare off your hands, the only graceful way to get rid of a TS with a lien is to perhaps deed it back to the TS (if they will take it).

Too many people have lost their jobs and the cost of living has risen and that's why so many are dumping their timeshares. They can't afford the maintenance fees. Regardless how the salesmen portray them, timeshares are a luxury product, and I believe they have sold them to too many people who couldn't really afford them at the start.

It's going to be a very long time before there is a resale value for timeshares... if ever. We may be at the end of an era and before the next best thing evolves. I think somethings got to radically change in this part of the vacation industry.
 

ace2000

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Take a look at your maintenance fees and analyze what you've got.

You've paid a set price to use a resort for a set amount of time for a set amount of maintenance fees (add in special assessments and other fees also).

The market has determined the worth your ownership. As long as maintenance fees keep rising higher than the inflation rate, the value of your property will continue to go down the drain. Not very pleasant, is it?
 

am1

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The best answer is that people buy without thinking about it. More timeshares are then built which are sold to more people who do not think about what they are buying.

A good percentage of these people want to sell their weeks instead of how to benefit from their impulse buy.

Developers are interested in making as much cash as they can.
 

Htoo0

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A part of it may be that anyone smart enough to know to look at buying resale is smart enough to know what they're getting into. Live and learn. At least you're finding out before getting in even deeper. Timeshares work for some people or at least some can make it work. For others it's a lasting regret. Try to make the best use of what you have. For me it's that there seems to be no control over ever rising MF's and SA's. Still, I couldn't rent for much less than what I'm paying so I'm still in the game for now.
 

prickler

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It cost a lot of money to dupe people into buying big ticket impulse items such as timeshares. (advertising, salespeople, freebies etc) These costs in turn get passed along to you all while the developers try and maximize profits.

The resale market doesn't care about any of the above factors, and people who buy resale tend to be more informed about the aftermarket value. Not to mention an overabundance of supply provided by regretful owners and simple economic principles hasn't done anything to prop up prices. I think this has a lesser influence on resale value than inflated developer prices does.
 

ampaholic

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The rental market establishes the fact that timeshares have an intrinsic value of only $250 to $3500 per week per year. The ones on the top end of that scale may also have some investment value because of their exclusivity (WKORV comes to mind) and modest value as rentals.

The developer sales department has to add a bunch of what Realtors (R) call "Blue Sky" into the equation to induce the marks er, potential buyers to buy them at highly "stylized" prices.

To understand "Blue Sky" imagine you were a seller of drinking water. Now imagine you had the only water around and were selling it in Barstow - it would sell well and for a nice price without much "Blue Sky" added to it.

But, now suppose you were trying to sell your water in the lobby of a nice Hotel where there were drinking fountains and cafe's all about - it would be much harder to get a good price as most potential buyers would just drink at the drinking fountain or at a cafe' and say no thanks to your offer.

But, now imagine you had some screens painted with scenes of blue sky and placed them in front of all the water fountains and cafe's entrances - and suppose you gave the people around free salty snacks and ra ra about how great you water was and "PRESTO" - you are Diamond, Marriott, Hilton or Starwood etc. and the water is moving out just fine.

Now eBay, TUG et al come along and knock over some of your blue sky screens - sales slow but don't stop. Your next move is to convince all involved that the water fountain or cafe' water just plain isn't as good as yours ---- and thus you get ROFER and "no VIP" and "no Staroptions" etc.

--- bottom line - a carrot or a clock, or a car or a timeshare are "worth" just exactly what you can get out of each. With manipulating the market you can often get more, with really smart manipulation you can get a lot more.
 

Carolinian

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There are several problems:
1) If you made a developer purchaser, the developers marketing costs likely exceeded 50% of what you paid, so what you really paid that represented the value of the timeshare was a lot less than you thought. Of course, that is not the case with a resale purchase.
2) The resale market is generally not well organized. In some places, demand does allow for decent resale prices, although never equal to what a developer charges.
3) RCI's mass move into rental of exchange deposits to the general public has hurt the timeshare market in a variety of ways. It has flooded the rental market driving down prices there. It ended the exclusivity concept, long promoted by RCI founder Chrystal deHahn, where someone had to own to participate. Now Joe Sixpack can do a one time rental at a cheap price through RCI, so why should he bother to buy. That has hurt the resale market. It has also made the good exchanges people used to get harder. A reseller in the eastern US told me that in recent years people listing there weeks for sale now frequently mention the perceived changes in service from RCI as the reason for getting out, and that was something she used to almost never hear. A reseller in the UK posted on a UK timeshare board that these days most of his buyer were looking for a specific week or time period at a specific resort to buy to use, and those who bought to exchange were increasingly rare. A major timeshare developer complained at the Timeshare Stripped Bare conference in the UK last year that RCI's rental policies were not only hurting his developer sales but also hurting their member retention.
4) The current economic climate
 

timeos2

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What Carolinian said with a change to the RCI Rentals part. Yes they have hurt but they are far from the MAJOR mover in lower rental / resale values. It is eBay, the general glut of inventory and the Internet making timeshares far more well known and available than 15-20 years ago that have done that.

There was once a bit of a "safe-haven" in the brand names which carried a supposed - but often not real - impression of superior quality. That bit of extra value has more or less been lost by the premium price the annual fees as those ownerships carry the overhead of that "name" (15-25% of the total fee) that hits the owners EVERY YEAR! That, plus a tendency toward Developer control of the Associations - another big hit for higher costs - means the value proposition of owning those vs renting has basically killed resale value there too. In fact it is a rare, special resort / time/ view that can command even the now near maximum value of any timeshare (approx $5,000). The purchase cost is nothing - it is the ongoing fees that are the real cost of ownership. No one that has done any study will pay a premium purchase price when all it actually buys is the obligation to future fees - even on resale.

Someone said the era of timeshares as an option for any type of even limited gain or rental income has come and gone. The glut of inventory for both resale and rental isn't going away soon and maybe never will.

Right now the only real value is an inexpensive to free purchase price and annual fees low enough to represent a value for vacationing (not rental not trade). Otherwise look to timeshare rentals as the real value that also carries no long term commitment to rising fees as any ownership does.

Thee is little to no hope resale prices will ever rise but a very real chance they will fall even more for most resorts / times.
 
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persia

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While it's true a lot of timeshares are less than worthless, not every timeshare has followed Wyndham into the dumpster. Trendwest, Wyndham's sister company, has some value, as does Disney. But you need to do your research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Wyndham used to command the princely sum of $5 to $10 a thousand, far less that the $150 to $200 that it costs from the developer, but more than zero. Then the decided to start taking away things, no VIP on resale, no renting to or from others, fewer, more pricey guest certificates, less trade value in RCI. It was almost as if they were trying to see how far they could go before the resale value on their timeshares was zero. And they found out.....
 

Carolinian

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eBay used to be a decent place to sell timeshare. For several years, while I was 1st VP of my HOA, part of my responsibility included HOA resales. We used eBay a lot and got decent prices. Blue weeks almost always sold and generally in the $200 to $500 range. White weeks went $800-$1200 and red weeks (always pink in reality - we never got prime red back) over $2,000. Then we closed down for a hurricane and were off the resale market completely for 8 or 10 months. When we went back, we found that there had been a sea change at eBay. The difference was that the PCC's had become more active and were dumping inventory in much larger numbers on eBay. Prices had crashed and sales were no longer a sure thing. We quit using eBay as a resale venue.

Fortunately, eBay is only a tiny percentage of the timeshare resale market, and we sought out other venues for resale. Today, eBay is much lower in the prices it brings than other resale venues. When I was active in this area, blue week listings with the local timeshare specialist broker generally brought $100, while we could sell the same week on eBay easily for more than twice that, but that has all changed as to eBay, thanks to the PCC's. The local broker prices remain the same.


What Carolinian said with a change to the RCI Rentals part. Yes they have hurt but they are far from the MAJOR mover in lower rental / resale values. It is eBay, the general glut of inventory and the Internet making timeshares far more well known and available than 15-20 years ago that have done that.

There was once a bit of a "safe-haven" in the brand names which carried a supposed - but often not real - impression of superior quality. That bit of extra value has more or less been lost by the premium price the annual fees as those ownerships carry the overhead of that "name" (15-25% of the total fee) that hits the owners EVERY YEAR! That, plus a tendency toward Developer control of the Associations - another big hit for higher costs - means the value proposition of owning those vs renting has basically killed resale value there too. In fact it is a rare, special resort / time/ view that can command even the now near maximum value of any timeshare (approx $5,000). The purchase cost is nothing - it is the ongoing fees that are the real cost of ownership. No one that has done any study will pay a premium purchase price when all it actually buys is the obligation to future fees - even on resale.

Someone said the era of timeshares as an option for any type of even limited gain or rental income has come and gone. The glut of inventory for both resale and rental isn't going away soon and maybe never will.

Right now the only real value is an inexpensive to free purchase price and annual fees low enough to represent a value for vacationing (not rental not trade). Otherwise look to timeshare rentals as the real value that also carries no long term commitment to rising fees as any ownership does.

Thee is little to no hope resale prices will ever rise but a very real chance they will fall even more for most resorts / times.
 

persia

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@Carolingian

Does that mean there are places where worthless (by eBay standards) timeshares still have value? Can you actually sell Wyndham points and walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket? Let us in on the secret.
 

tombo

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@Carolingian

Does that mean there are places where worthless (by eBay standards) timeshares still have value? Can you actually sell Wyndham points and walk away with a couple bucks in your pocket? Let us in on the secret.

On a few sites other than e-bay you can RARELY find a buyer who doesn't know about e-bay or is scared to buy from e-bay who will pay more than you can sell it for on e-bay. Those buyers are dinosaurs and are a breed soon to be extinct. My 80 year old father and mother surf the internet.

If you own a week you no longer want, turn down no offers from any buyer no matter how ridiculous you think it is because it might be your only offer. If you are buying make sure it is an obligation you are willing to take on for years to come because these things are real easy to buy but very hard to get rid of.
 
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