CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[dioxide45]

Vistana is currently the same as it ever was. It is a publicly traded stand alone company. It's possible that Vistana could go away and we will become MVC properties. It's also possible, Vistana will remain a publicly traded company and there will be a new club allowing trading between MVC and Vistana. I tend to think it will stay a separate company at least in the short term because I have heard so very many times that nothing will change within Vistana. Still, we won't know for sure until the change happens. Marriott has announced that they will sell a product in the future that includes Marriott, Sheraton, and Westin. This makes me think there might be a full merger down the road.

Vistana is a wholly owned subsidiary of Marriott Vacations Worldwide. It is not publicly traded. Marriott Vacations Worldwide is a publicly traded company under the ticker VAC. Marriott Vacations Worldwide owns Marriott Vacation Club. Currently, Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana operate independently very likely with separate management structures inside Marriott Vacations Worldwide. They also run two separate independant resort systems that Marriott is trying to bring together with a combined product/system. But to say Vistana is publicly traded is incorrect.

Vistana on its own hasn't been a separate company since the 1990s prior to it being acquired by Starwood to create Starwood Vacation Ownership. Starwood, the hotel company, then sold itself to Marriott International (hotel company). Just prior to doing so, it renamed the Starwood Vacation Ownership to Vistana Signature Experiences then spun it off and sold it to Interval Leisure Group, which owned a number of companies. One of which was Interval International. ILG was a publicly traded company that then later sold itself to Marriott Vacations Worldwide.

 

[DPR]

okay... an update from the sales person I spoke with. He sends me the following email (which has little to no information)
I just received this update from Corporate! I wanted to share this with you. Up to this point Grandfathering was purely speculative and it could not be verified.

This is the first concreate indication that it will occur.

If this is the case, I would advise you not to unload your ownership so that you avail yourself of all the benefits and features we discussed on the “Executive Level” with Marriott.

The attachement he appended says this....
Hi Team
We are getting some issues on the back end of sales that I want to clarify so you can get ahead of it on the front end.
1. Documents we are sending currently do not reflect Executive/Presential/ Chairman's status and benefits. You may want to cover this upfront so you don't have issues signing. Let them know we in 'soft launch' phase and they are able to advantage of some great pricing/incentives/ grandfathering of levels during this time and that their ownership will not reflect this until we go into FULL LAUNCH (ie. flip the switch). You are able to screen share everything that is coming so this should ease their minds, but I would bring it up so it is not an issue on the back end.

So maybe grandfathering is a thing and a 3* will convert to Executive level....no holding my breath though.

 

[daviator]

You are able to screen share everything that is coming so this should ease their minds, but I would bring it up so it is not an issue on the back end.

This made me laugh out loud. Maybe other people are willing to take a quick glance at something a salesperson shows on their screen as proof that everything they are promising is true and will come to pass, but that would definitely not “ease MY mind.” In my experience, they flip through those screens so fast that you barely have a chance to know what you’re looking at, and of course you don’t know who created it or how legit it is.

And if it’s not in writing, they can change it later (as they’ve already done in some cases) and those who bought on assurances that turned out to be false have no recourse.

But on the subject of your message, we have heard here from a couple of sources indicating that existing elite owners would be grandfathered into MVC elite levels, and I share your hope that comes to pass.

 

[remowidget]

Vistana is a wholly owned subsidiary of Marriott Vacations Worldwide. It is not publicly traded. Marriott Vacations Worldwide is a publicly traded company under the ticker VAC. Marriott Vacations Worldwide owns Marriott Vacation Club. Currently, Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana operate independently very likely with separate management structures inside Marriott Vacations Worldwide. They also run two separate independant resort systems that Marriott is trying to bring together with a combined product/system. But to say Vistana is publicly traded is incorrect.

Vistana on its own hasn't been a separate company since the 1990s prior to it being acquired by Starwood to create Starwood Vacation Ownership. Starwood, the hotel company, then sold itself to Marriott International (hotel company). Just prior to doing so, it renamed the Starwood Vacation Ownership to Vistana Signature Experiences then spun it off and sold it to Interval Leisure Group, which owned a number of companies. One of which was Interval International. ILG was a publicly traded company that then later sold itself to Marriott Vacations Worldwide.

Dohhh, definitely overstepped my knowledge there.

So, does Marriott owning ILG make all of ILG a part ot Marriott or just an investment?

 

[daviator]

Dohhh, definitely overstepped my knowledge there.

So, does Marriott owning ILG make all of ILG a part ot Marriott or just an investment?

To be clear, the “Marriott“ we are talking about here is Marriott Vacations Worldwide, or MVW, NOT Marriott Hotels and Resorts. The hotel company is completely different and financially unrelated to the timeshare company. Both are separate public companies.

All of ILG is part of MVW, it’s essentially a division of MVW, operating quasi-independently. Over time, you can probably expect some of ILGs business to become more entwined with MVW, but I expect they will keep it somewhat separated because they want the other timeshare companies to continue working with II. I could even see them spinning off and divesting II to keep it independent, but I suspect there is value in retaining it but allowing it to be operated somewhat independently.

Vistana was a unit under ILG, but I expect now Vistana sits directly under MVW and ILG (and its subsidiary II) sort of sit off to the side. I’m actually not sure what other business units exist or existed within ILG but presumably they continue to operate as they had in the past.

 

[dioxide45]

Vistana was a unit under ILG, but I expect now Vistana sits directly under MVW and ILG (and its subsidiary II) sort of sit off to the side. I’m actually not sure what other business units exist or existed within ILG but presumably they continue to operate as they had in the past.

VRI Europe and VRI Americas were part of ILG. MVW sold off VRI Europe a few years ago and just a week or so ago they sold VRI Americas to Capital Resorts. ILG also came with Aqua-Aston, a hotel chain in Hawaii. They still own and manage that. I am not sure there is much else other than Hyatt Residence Club, Vistana and Interval International which MVW still retains.

 

[daviator]

VRI Europe and VRI Americas were part of ILG. MVW sold off VRI Europe a few years ago and just a week or so ago they sold VRI Americas to Capital Resorts. ILG also came with Aqua-Aston, a hotel chain in Hawaii. They still own and manage that. I am not sure there is much else other than Hyatt Residence Club, Vistana and Interval International which MVW still retains.

Oh I’d forgotten about Aqua-Aston, which is itself a product of the merger of two very old and (at least at one point) successful chains of mid-tier hotels in Hawaii. Back in the 80s it seemed as if half the hotels in Waikiki were Aston-owned, and they had hotels on all the other islands too. Most are older now and some are on need of serious investment. Some have been sold off, I think, prior to MVW's purchase.

it will be interesting to see what happens with them. I can see MVW selling the whole Aqua-Aston portfolio (to Marriott?) as it could represent a new value brand for them in Hawaii that was Hawaii-specific (I doubt anyone gets excited about staying at a Courtyard by Marriott in Honolulu.) It doesn’t really seem to be aligned with the rest of MVWs business unless they see these properties as timeshare conversions. From my experience, many or most of them have small, modest rooms and paltry amenities and I don’t seem them as potential timeshares. So I'd guess they are waiting for the time to be right to unload them. But perhaps I’ll be proven wrong.

Sorry for the slightly off-topic post. And thanks for the info on ILG's other operations. I didn’t know about VRI.

 

[dioxide45]

Oh I’d forgotten about Aqua-Aston, which is itself a product of the merger of two very old and (at least at one point) successful chains of mid-tier hotels in Hawaii. Back in the 80s it seemed as if half the hotels in Waikiki were Aston-owned, and they had hotels on all the other islands too. Most are older now and some are on need of serious investment. Some have been sold off, I think, prior to MVW's purchase.

it will be interesting to see what happens with them. I can see MVW selling the whole Aqua-Aston portfolio (to Marriott?) as it could represent a new value brand for them in Hawaii that was Hawaii-specific (I doubt anyone gets excited about staying at a Courtyard by Marriott in Honolulu.) It doesn’t really seem to be aligned with the rest of MVWs business unless they see these properties as timeshare conversions. From my experience, many or most of them have small, modest rooms and paltry amenities and I don’t seem them as potential timeshares. So I'd guess they are waiting for the time to be right to unload them. But perhaps I’ll be proven wrong.

Sorry for the slightly off-topic post. And thanks for the info on ILG's other operations. I didn’t know about VRI.

You may be right about Aqua-Aston. I would think they are actively shopping that one around. Not sure it aligns with the Marriott Hotel brands, but it is a possibility if they found the right buyer. Marriott International wouldn't buy it, but perhaps some investment firm would buy the properties while Marriott International buys the brand and then licenses it out like they do with their other brands. Hard to tell, but it certainly doesn't seem to align with what MVW is trying to do in the timeshare space.

 

[daviator]

You may be right about Aqua-Aston. I would think they are actively shopping that one around. Not sure it aligns with the Marriott Hotel brands, but it is a possibility if they found the right buyer. Marriott International wouldn't buy it, but perhaps some investment firm would buy the properties while Marriott International buys the brand and then licenses it out like they do with their other brands. Hard to tell, but it certainly doesn't seem to align with what MVW is trying to do in the timeshare space.

I agree that Marriott seems like an unlikely buyer for Aqua-Aston. It’s a solid but not even remotely upscale brand and I can see it going to an investment group or a value hotel chain that wants a big Hawaii presence. The brands are pretty recognized in Hawaii so I guess i'd be surprised to them bought and rebranded. But stranger things have happened.

One of their properties sits right next to WKORV. They do have some fantastic real estate, assuming they own the real estate (which may not be the case) owing to their long history.

 

[TSKing]

This made me laugh out loud. Maybe other people are willing to take a quick glance at something a salesperson shows on their screen as proof that everything they are promising is true and will come to pass, but that would definitely not “ease MY mind.” In my experience, they flip through those screens so fast that you barely have a chance to know what you’re looking at, and of course you don’t know who created it or how legit it is.

And if it’s not in writing, they can change it later (as they’ve already done in some cases) and those who bought on assurances that turned out to be false have no recourse.

But on the subject of your message, we have heard here from a couple of sources indicating that existing elite owners would be grandfathered into MVC elite levels, and I share your hope that comes to pass.

I’m not sure what “ grandfathering” would mean. I was informed that If you are a Vistana owner and do not own any MVC, you are only Vistana. Can’t get any MVC properties with your options.
I own Vistana and also MVC. i am told that I can use my MVC points to reserve Vistana properties. Also exchange them into MVC points, getting that option every year. But if I was not already an MVC owner I cannot do that!

 

[Revbo]

Here is an update on what is being told to owners as of May 19, 2022. Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website. MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network. Use of those transferred points will be Jan 1, 2023. I was given a MVC value of my ownerships in Vistana and they were not the same. 2BR lock off at Westin Maui was 6200 (148100 in options). 1BR Westin Lagunamar Cancun will be 1700 MVC points (81,000 star options). So it appears every week will be assigned a value of points in the other system when you elect to transfer those points NOT based on options value but location/season value. I was told you have two years to use them. Who knows when this will be announced BUT of everything I have been told over the last few years that never happened, this seemed the most official AND the sales rep did NOT try to sell me anything to be “in a better position”.

 

[cubigbird]

This slightly contradicts earlier reports that qualifying Vistana VOIs - developer purchased and retro’d / requalified weeks would be able to elect MVC DC points for no charge.

 

[DanCali]

Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website...MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network...

This last part makes it sound like MVC owners can get Staroptions. That is not something discussed anywhere else, including the Marriott tug boards. Most likely MVC owners will be able to use DC points to book Vistana weeks that were deposited into the DC exchange. There is no indication of a different mechanism.

 

[Mroze]

Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website.

This sounds like what I have been tracking.

• As a Vistana owner I can participate [Eligible-Contracts: Direct/Retro] within the DC-Program starting in SUMMER-2022 for usage beginning in JAN-2023.
• To participate, I will have to pay a One-Time Enrollment-Fee [not sure how much]. A recent Purchase of DC-Points [not sure how far back] or Retro [purchase Felx] counts.
• Each-Year I can elect to relinquish my Weeks/Star-Options/Flex to the DC-Program. Each-Year I can choose NOT to do so and exchange within VSN or via II as I always have.
• For this privilege, I will have to pay an ANNUAL MVCI Club-Dues [slightly higher than my current VSN-Club-Dues] which will eliminate the need to pay a-la-carte VSN-Fees.
• MVCI Has already released the NEW Club-Dues as well as DC-Points-Values each VSN resort-week will accrue, which is not based on SO-Value but on Resort/Season.

 

[VacationForever]

This sounds like what I have been tracking.

• As a Vistana owner I can participate [Eligible-Contracts: Direct/Retro] within the DC-Program starting in SUMMER-2023 for usage beginning in JAN-2023.
• To participate, I will have to pay a One-Time Enrollment-Fee [not sure how much]. A recent Purchase of DC-Points [not sure how far back] or Retro [purchase Felx] counts.
• Each-Year I can elect to relinquish my Weeks/Star-Options/Flex to the DC-Program. Each-Year I can choose NOT to do so and exchange within VSN or via II as I always have.
• For this privilege, I will have to pay an ANNUAL MVCI Club-Dues [slightly higher than my current VSN-Club-Dues] which will eliminate the need to pay a-la-carte VSN-Fees.
• MVCI Has already released the NEW Club-Dues as well as DC-Points-Values for that each VSN resort-week will accrue, which is not based on SO-Value but on Resort/Season.

The only thing is on the second point, I don't believe there will be an enrollment fee for direct/retro/qualified/eligible Vistana ownership.

 

[Mroze]

The only thing is on the second point, I don't believe there will be an enrollment fee for direct/retro/qualified/eligible Vistana ownership.

Agree. Seems logical to not have to pay an Enrollment-Fee to participate at least for Direct/Enrolled ownerships.

Hope we get the details next month.

 

[remowidget]

This slightly contradicts earlier reports that qualifying Vistana VOIs - developer purchased and retro’d / requalified weeks would be able to elect MVC DC points for no charge.

At our meeting a couple weeks ago, we were told there will be a new currency called "Club Points" where MVC and Vistana can reciprocally book. She said we would have trouble booking Vistana resorts at 8 months for this reason.

Of course this was from sales and the problem I see is the devaluation of properties. A Platinum owner in Arizona would no longer be able to book in Hawaii if they use what we have been hearing about DC point valuations. If there is truth to this, either there will be happy and pissed off people or maybe we will have two ways to use our ownership depending upon whether we are booking Vistana or MVC properties.

 

[cubigbird]

At our meeting a couple weeks ago, we were told there will be a new currency called "Club Points" where MVC and Vistana can reciprocally book. She said we would have trouble booking Vistana resorts at 8 months for this reason.

Of course this was from sales and the problem I see is the devaluation of properties. A Platinum owner in Arizona would no longer be able to book in Hawaii if they use what we have been hearing about DC point valuations. If there is truth to this, either there will be happy and pissed off people or maybe we will have two ways to use our ownership depending upon whether we are booking Vistana or MVC properties.

This seems more like “fear of missing out” by sales. Sales’ job is to create problems, which may or may not exist. Without something in writing, it’s hard to determine if there even is a problem. Devaluations can happen, that’s why we are holding on to our deeds. There has been a lot of talk in this thread about a “skim” if you convert VSE into MVC - for example a weeks worth of Staroptions in VSE converts to 5 or 6 nights over in Marriott. Vistana how it works today should work going forward. We love our VSE ownerships and the resorts and will likely continue in that program. There’s just too much dust in the air to consider anything until a new program is officially in place.

 

[CarpeDiem65]

Here is an update on what is being told to owners as of May 19, 2022. Starting later this year Vistana owners can pay a fee (much like the fee to bank points) and move weeks over to MVC and then have access to the MVC owners website. MVC owners can do the same into the Vistana network. Use of those transferred points will be Jan 1, 2023. I was given a MVC value of my ownerships in Vistana and they were not the same. 2BR lock off at Westin Maui was 6200 (148100 in options). 1BR Westin Lagunamar Cancun will be 1700 MVC points (81,000 star options). So it appears every week will be assigned a value of points in the other system when you elect to transfer those points NOT based on options value but location/season value. I was told you have two years to use them. Who knows when this will be announced BUT of everything I have been told over the last few years that never happened, this seemed the most official AND the sales rep did NOT try to sell me anything to be “in a better position”.

We are at WKOVR on an Encore package and just completed our obligatory Owners Update. Here are the key details that we were given.
When the merge is completed:
Our 3* Elite status will be given MVC Executive status
Our Bonvoy Gold status will be elevated to Platinum

We got our conversion rates for our Vistana ownership. WDW 148,100 gets 3,725 MVC points (40:1), Westin Flex 37,000 gets 1,285 MVC points (29:1). The posting above for Maui shows 148,100 gets 6,200 MVC points (24:1). Note that the the Maui ownership gets 66% more MVC than WDW. We were told that you could elect to exchange your WVC into MVC. I think they will have a separate pool for this purpose. When I look at the MVC points chart it matches fairly closely to our WDW usage. ie it would be an equal trade for Marriott Shadow Ridge as for WDW. Everywhere else it seems that we would do worse in MVC. However, the points for Maui are super high and we would be better off using Vistana StarOptions at 8 months. This brings up the topic about whether Vistana owners will get squeezed out at 8 months by MVC owners that will have access to Vistana properties. An owner I met at WPORV was told that MVC owners would only have access to Vistana properties that had been exchanged into the new MVC pool. This would ensure that there is balance in the system. I quess we will have to wait and see. They asked us if we wanted to add some more Westin Flex to our ownership but we declined.

They told us that they will stop selling Westin Flex at the end of May. Interesting. They also stated that once the merger was completed they would only sell MVC points. They could not provide any info on how we would access Vistana properties if we bought MVC points in the future. I wonder if this increases the market for resale MVC points.

I asked about resale of mandatory resorts like WKV. All they could say was that Marriott does not do Retro's. That being said, I thought you had to do some Flex to get a property retro'd so you could use the Staroptions for general use. If Flex can't be purchased, how could you retro and if you can't do a future retro of WKV how will that impact the price for WKV resales. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of mandatory resales and retro'ing could comment.

From my perspective, as long as I can get the same access to the Vistana properties as the past I will be happy. My message to the sales rep was that we would be very upset if we ended up with less after this merger is completed.

 

[sharr7]

We are at WKOVR on an Encore package and just completed our obligatory Owners Update. Here are the key details that we were given.
When the merge is completed:
Our 3* Elite status will be given MVC Executive status
Our Bonvoy Gold status will be elevated to Platinum

We got our conversion rates for our Vistana ownership. WDW 148,100 gets 3,725 MVC points (40:1), Westin Flex 37,000 gets 1,285 MVC points (29:1). The posting above for Maui shows 148,100 gets 6,200 MVC points (24:1). Note that the the Maui ownership gets 66% more MVC than WDW. We were told that you could elect to exchange your WVC into MVC. I think they will have a separate pool for this purpose. When I look at the MVC points chart it matches fairly closely to our WDW usage. ie it would be an equal trade for Marriott Shadow Ridge as for WDW. Everywhere else it seems that we would do worse in MVC. However, the points for Maui are super high and we would be better off using Vistana StarOptions at 8 months. This brings up the topic about whether Vistana owners will get squeezed out at 8 months by MVC owners that will have access to Vistana properties. An owner I met at WPORV was told that MVC owners would only have access to Vistana properties that had been exchanged into the new MVC pool. This would ensure that there is balance in the system. I quess we will have to wait and see. They asked us if we wanted to add some more Westin Flex to our ownership but we declined.

They told us that they will stop selling Westin Flex at the end of May. Interesting. They also stated that once the merger was completed they would only sell MVC points. They could not provide any info on how we would access Vistana properties if we bought MVC points in the future. I wonder if this increases the market for resale MVC points.

I asked about resale of mandatory resorts like WKV. All they could say was that Marriott does not do Retro's. That being said, I thought you had to do some Flex to get a property retro'd so you could use the Staroptions for general use. If Flex can't be purchased, how could you retro and if you can't do a future retro of WKV how will that impact the price for WKV resales. Perhaps someone with better knowledge of mandatory resales and retro'ing could comment.

From my perspective, as long as I can get the same access to the Vistana properties as the past I will be happy. My message to the sales rep was that we would be very upset if we ended up with less after this merger is completed.

Thanks for the report.

Vistana allows retro's starting at $10k of any "new money" (i.e., weeks work too), not just Flex. Flex is just the product they've been pushing the last few years and it's easy to sell any # of points to make $10k or $15k or whatever is needed.

From what I understand Marriott DPs are essentially MVC "Flex" points and once they stop selling Westin Flex etc. they will likely push DP as the 'perfect option for you, and wow so flexible! now with access to Vistana properties!'

Additionally it does seem MVC retro's/requal's resales but it is pricier (I think starting at $35k worth of points or new money). And perhaps that's not ALWAYS offered.

 

[Negma]

Todays offer at SVR. We have roughly 800k options year
Retro reSale of WKV 148K options and And WMH 148K options ey plat.
get 38k flex, and everything enrolled in new Marriott.
$15k all in. chairman’s, blah blah.
Thinking about it. Better than what WKORN offered in Feb. said start is July 1. And a one time 76k of options for 2023. MF 700/ yr

 

[TravelTime]

All this new info is helpful but confusing. Is the summary of this that Vistana owners can convert to DPs by just paying an enrollment fee every year? Or do resale Vistana owners need to purchase something to enroll their week, the same as post 2010 MVC owners need to do?

 

[dioxide45]

All this new info is helpful but confusing. Is the summary of this that Vistana owners can convert to DPs by just paying an enrollment fee every year? Or do resale Vistana owners need to purchase something to enroll their week, the same as post 2010 MVC owners need to do?

The "educated" guesses is that in order for resale VOIs to be able to elect DC Club Points, they will need to requalify first by purchasing direct from Vistana. Direct purchase or already requalified VOIs will simply be able to elect points moving forward. We don't fully understand the mechanics of enrollment in the DC program for Vistana VOIs, but there certainly won't be an annual enrollment fee every year. There would be an annual DC Club Fee.

 

[TravelTime]

The "educated" guesses is that in order for resale VOIs to be able to elect DC Club Points, they will need to requalify first by purchasing direct from Vistana. Direct purchase or already requalified VOIs will simply be able to elect points moving forward. We don't fully understand the mechanics of enrollment in the DC program for Vistana VOIs, but there certainly won't be an annual enrollment fee every year. There would be an annual DC Club Fee.

This is what I understood but then with the wave of posts above, once again I got confused. I figure if Marriott will not let post-2010 Marriott resales enroll for free/low cost and they require purchase of points, then they probably will not allow Vistana resales to enroll for free/low cost. I would guess the enrollment rules would be the same.

 

[dioxide45]

This is what I understood but then with the wave of posts above, once again I got confused. I figure if Marriott will not let post-2010 Marriott resales enroll for free/low cost and they require purchase of points, then they probably will not allow Vistana resales to enroll for free/low cost. I would guess the enrollment rules would be the same.

We need to take all reports that come from a sales presentation with a grain of salt. We really need to take everything with a grain of salt. Even everything I stated in my last post could be wrong. But just because someone comes along with a different story, it doesn't change the whole story.