CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[remowidget]

A question I should know the answer to: Is the VSN Membership Fee that’s on my statement that same thing as Club Dues? I get charged that every year on an EOY week. Now that seems ridiculous to me since I only own one week that is billed over 2 years. Why am I charged 2x for one week? Why don’t they charge me half of the VSN Membership Fee every year just like I pay half of the rest of the fees every year? Or am I confused again!

I was told today that an every other year owner can use half of their Staroptions every year because they paid the maintenance for half that year. It was a sales lady, but....

 

[VacationForever]

I was told today that an every other year owner can use half of their Staroptions every year because they paid the maintenance for half that year. It was a sales lady, but....

The only way you can do so is to you bank your SOs. Sales lady is only a sales lady...

 

[remowidget]

I found in an old thread you said:

The mandatory provision is written in to the underlying CC&R documents for the resort... On the Resale Information Sheet (estoppel), Vistana actually mentions "Voluntary Resorts", however for mandatory they reference them as "Club Resorts".

What do the CC&R documents actually say in the mandatory provision.

 

[DanCali]

What do the CC&R documents actually say in the mandatory provision.

Membership. Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort.

 

[remowidget]

Membership. Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort.

Thanks,

I see now why some people think Mandatory will be able to trade into DP. If that is on the deed, how can that ownership be excluded?

 

[Eric B]

Thanks,

I see now why some people think Mandatory will be able to trade into DP. If that is on the deed, how can that ownership be excluded?

The Network referred to in the rules (it's not on the deed) is the VSN. If the DP replaces the VSN, that would be true. It could be that the DP is added as another benefit that supplements the VSN and they haven't released any rules or guidelines that lay out how it will work. The Network Operator does have the authority to revise the rules, too, but that can cause problems for them reputation-wise and with respect to good will if they are too heavy handed. We'll see where it winds up this summer; I keep checking for updates to the VSN rules to see if anything is there yet.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront. We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.

We travel a lot, A LOT. We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow. We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai. We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired. I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer. Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep. I wish it didn't.

 

[timsi]

The Network referred to in the rules (it's not on the deed) is the VSN. If the DP replaces the VSN, that would be true. It could be that the DP is added as another benefit that supplements the VSN and they haven't released any rules or guidelines that lay out how it will work. The Network Operator does have the authority to revise the rules, too, but that can cause problems for them reputation-wise and with respect to good will if they are too heavy handed. We'll see where it winds up this summer; I keep checking for updates to the VSN rules to see if anything is there yet.

The sales reps probably hate the idea of mandatory resorts but at a high level I do not see the big issue if they allow the mandatory resale owners to trade in DP. It would simplify the administration and the additional inventory should be welcome since the resorts are in demand (except for SVV Bella and Key West).

According to Advantage Vacation these are mandatory: Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas North, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kierland Villas, Scottsdale, Arizona

Westin St. John Villas (Hillside Phase), St. John, US Virgin Islands

Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West Phases), Orlando, Florida

Harborside Resort at Atlantis (Phases I and II), Paradise Island, Bahamas

 

[remowidget]

It would simplify the administration

In today's computer driven world I doubt administration even enters the thoughts of the decision makers. The programers should be able to easily do anything requested.

 

[remowidget]

I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront. We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.

We travel a lot, A LOT. We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow. We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai. We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired. I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer. Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep. I wish it didn't.

Sell it. I think the market is still pretty hot, but with the interest rate increases it will probably cool down. If we didn't have dogs, we would sell ours and move into an apartment and buy or build later.

 

[timsi]

In today's computer driven world I doubt administration even enters the thoughts of the decision makers. The programers should be able to easily do anything requested.

You have a good point but the mess with the VSN booking system shows it may not be as easy as it should be, complexity can lead to lots of errors.

 

[DavidnRobin]

The sales reps probably hate the idea of mandatory resorts but at a high level I do not see the big issue if they allow the mandatory resale owners to trade in DP. It would simplify the administration and the additional inventory should be welcome since the resorts are in demand (except for SVV Bella and Key West).

According to Advantage Vacation these are mandatory: Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resorts Villas North, Lahaina, Maui

Westin Kierland Villas, Scottsdale, Arizona

Westin St. John Villas (Hillside Phase), St. John, US Virgin Islands

Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West Phases), Orlando, Florida

Harborside Resort at Atlantis (Phases I and II), Paradise Island, Bahamas

Wow! We had no idea!


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[kozykritter]

I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in VSN in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.

It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership. Denise's contact said as much when he told us that if you are entitled to convert to bonvoy points, you'll have access to this new feature as well

 

[CPNY]

I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.

It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership.

for years reps used the eligibility to convert to bonvoy points as a sales tactic to try to get resale owners to retro a unit and It rarely worked. I would think that the marketing team would be a driving force in keeping mandatory resale owners from being eligible to convert to DC points. I expect a huge marketing campaign targeting all owners with unenrolled weeks on the vistana and Marriott side. Watch for the limited time enrollment deals come through. Getting owners to Buy a small points package in order to enroll a resale is going to be a money maker for a lot of reps. Let’s not forget the lies they will spin to already eligible owners, they will make up stories about how that owner needs to buy a minimum points package so they can convert their already eligible week. Sales reps/MVW are going to make some money in the next few years.

 

[jabberwocky]

I understand the wishful thinking aspect but it seems like a stretch to think of the ability to convert your ownership to DP as an expansion of the existing Network (VSN) and therefore covered by these terms. By its very nature this DP conversion feature is more aligned with the ability to convert your ownership to Bonvoy points. Both of these features require you to give up ownership usage in VSN in order to receive points in an external system (not the VSN). This is different than II where you are essentially swapping weeks instead of transforming what you own into another currency.

It seems logical to me that Vistana/Marriott would limit the DP conversion feature in the same way it limits the Bonvoy feature, meaning only as a perk for developer/retro'd ownership.

I can see it going either way.

If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN). There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion. With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity. With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.

 

[kozykritter]

I can see it going either way.

If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN). There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion. With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity. With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.

I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.

 

[Red elephant]

I can see it going either way.

If they make DP conversion a part of VSN, then resale mandatory would likely get this feature as well (just as the II corp membership is included in VSN). There is a big difference between DP and Bonvoy point conversion. With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity. With a DP conversion, MVC controls the DC trust and exchange system - so everything is done "in-house" and there isn't any real cost incurred for the conversion.

This is wishful thinking but there is always some small hope.

 

[Red elephant]

I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.

Not only that but resale ownership is a very small population that can just be left to their own devices in SVN and interval. They are not the likely owners to buy developer even to enroll .

 

[CPNY]

Not only that but resale ownership is a very small population that can just be left to their own devices in SVN and interval. They are not the likely owners to buy developer even to enroll .

That’s not true, many will buy developer to enroll. Even if they won’t, it is still a carrot to dangle. You’ll be surprised how many resale owners may bite the bullet and buy a minimum point package. The DC program offers excellent choices in usage of an ownership. While I love the VSN, I also would rather 13 or 12 month booking window. The ability to rent more points or rent out points is a huge benefit. While the handful of resorts that appeal to me are in the VSN, I cannot deny the DC exchange is a great product.

 

[Red elephant]

That’s not true, many will buy developer to enroll. Even if they won’t, it is still a carrot to dangle. You’ll be surprised how many resale owners may bite the bullet and buy a minimum point package. The DC program offers excellent choices in usage of an ownership. While I love the VSN, I also would rather 13 or 12 month booking window. The ability to rent more points or rent out points is a huge benefit. While the handful of resorts that appeal to me are in the VSN, I cannot deny the DC exchange is a great product.

Well then more reason for Marriott not to offer free enrollment to resale ownership .

 

[DanCali]

I see what you're saying. Like CPNY I don't think this comes down to cost but rather the opportunity to create new sales from a class of owners into which they will try to put the FOMO. I'm sure Marriott is seeing this as a long play with this group as initially there could be a lot of pushback due to being excluded but over time the desire to have more options seems likely to add more sales. There's an assumption that Marriott wants to get a big chunk of inventory from Vistana into their system as quickly as they can but I doubt that they will give away the farm to do it.. it's all about the long play.

This is all about sales opportunities. And the way to sell this is access to 60+ new resorts, flexibility in usage, and creating fear that what you have now will go away.

But all that has nothing to do with taking inventory from VSN into the DC. They can sell the DC to existing MVC and VSN owners even if they don't have a single Vistana week in the DC inventory. The point is that, once this is launched, they can legitimately advertise that you can find Vistana weeks in the DC exchange (which would be true - there will be VSN weeks there if owners elect DC points), they can say that what you have now will/can go away (which is true if most VSN owners went the DC exchange route) and they can say a lot of other things that would technically be true if certain conditions materialized. But there is no reason to grandfather weeks unnecessarily (from their perspective) just to get inventory. Likewise, there is no need to artificially move any VSN inventory into the DC because if you don't find VSN weeks in there you have no idea why... Did they get picked up by another owner? Did that inventory never exist? Maybe someone else had those dates on a waitlist? Lack of inventory is actually another selling opportunity - "buy more points and then you can book it because you will have a higher Elite status!"

VSN inventory may get impacted over time but I would attribute that to owner behavior rather than MVC playing tricks on owners. They don't have much to gain from that.

 

[rcv82]

I can see it going either way.

With Bonvoy, MVC will have to go out and buy the points from the hotel side - it is a commercial transaction with an external entity.

When you convert to Bonvoy points, doesn’t the hotel side get use of your time for booking as a hotel room? If true, as they have devalued the Bonvoy points this becomes more profitable to the hotel side.

Like many of the other benefits that come with a developer purchase or retro, I don’t think they cost Vistana/MVC anything, rather limiting them from resales just provides an incentive to purchase from the developer.


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[rcv82]

Membership. Membership in the Club is a condition of ownership of each Club Resort VOI pursuant to the terms of a Club Resort Affiliation Agreement, and is required of all purchasers of Club Resort VOIs. On recording of a deed or a memorandum of contract for deed to a Club Resort VOI, the Club Member is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Club. Pursuant to a Network Affiliation Agreement between Club Operator and Network Operator, a Club Member also is entitled to enjoy the benefits of membership in the Network. Membership in the Network is not
an appurtenance to VOIs, and automatically terminates if such Club Member’s Home Resort ceases to be a Network Resort.

I guess I read this different than many of you. I read it as requiring you as an owner to be in the club/network and pay dues accordingly if it exists. But it seems to me it gives lots of legal room for the resort to change any club/network affiliation. I hope they won’t. But I think they could. Just my read.


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[TravelTime]

I have always wanted to enroll in DC but not with Westin oceanfront. We bought those two weeks with Rick's inheritance from his stepmom.

We travel a lot, A LOT. We are already at 11 weeks as of tomorrow. We have another three weeks later May-June on Kauai. We are not home nearly as much as I thought we would be after Rick retired. I kind of wish we would have purchased a large townhouse so we could travel more in summer. Our yard is huge and requires a lot of work to upkeep. I wish it didn't.

What keeps you from seLing some timeshares and starting to spend more time at home?

 

[TravelTime]

There are so many weeks available on the resale market so I do not see that they need to give away free enrollment to Vistana owners when they can re-purchase weeks very inexpensively for little to nothing. Even the expensive Maui weeks are “pennies” (relatively speaking) to re-purchase compared to what they cost to book in DPs. I have noticed a huge amount of pending sales for Marriott and Vistana on Redweek. I do not see many pending sales for Hilton or Hyatt, for example. Could Marriott be buying back aggressively to stock the trust?

See this link about what @JIMinNC posted about MVC’s strategy.

A Few Tidbits from Marriott Vacations Worldwide 1Q22 Earnings Call

There were a few interesting tidbits that TUGgers may find interesting from Marriott Vacations Worldwide CEO Steve Weisz, President John Geller, and CFO Tony Terry during their 1Q2022 Earnings Call today: 1) On the new combined product offering: "At the end of March, we began pre-marketing our...

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