• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

Status
Not open for further replies.

DanCali

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
4,508
Reaction score
1,812
Points
398
Resorts Owned
Vistana, Marriott, DVC
Thank you for your hard work on this. Let’s hope it’s close to this if they do work out the issues that are preventing this from being included in the initial launch.

I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :)

These numbers are still low compared to week rental values in these seasons (assuming a point can be rented for about $0.70), especially Gold summer season. They really should have bumped up the points booking requirements for mid-June to mid-August, (weeks 24-32) to reflect actual demand.
 

r1lee

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
343
Reaction score
97
Points
139
Location
Toronto
Resorts Owned
WKV, SVV
The Explorer reservations and confirmations come from a whole different department, not connected to owner services. Have you tried calling the number you called to make the explorer reservation? Those are the people who should be able to help you with it.

Let me look, maybe I can find it.

Try 877-782-7018.

No I called the explorer side, they were the ones that told me they never send it out, which is untrue.
 

alexadeparis

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,769
Reaction score
517
Points
474
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Resorts Owned
Points: Hilton EVEN, Hyatt ODD Annual: WSJ, HRA
I do have a vested interest in this, as I own in both seasons :)

These numbers are still low compared to week rental values in these seasons (assuming a point can be rented for about $0.70), especially Gold summer season. They really should have bumped up the points booking requirements for mid-June to mid-August, (weeks 24-32) to reflect actual demand.
If the plat L/O does bring 4400 or more AND my unqualified resale Bella can enroll, that just MIGHT put me at Presidential.
 

GregT

TUG Member
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
7,128
Reaction score
1,886
Points
599
Location
Carlsbad, CA
Resorts Owned
Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
HARBORSIDE DC POINT ALLOCATION (PURE SPECULATION)

Perhaps someone got a concrete number from a salesperson, but I haven't seen it so I apologize if the (actual) info is already available.

Realizing these won't be included in Abound for some time, I used the chart posted by @kozykritter for points required to book HRA at various points during the year to try and guess how many points the HRA units will be allocated in Platinum and Gold seasons.

Methodology:

(1) Match the Vistana seasons with the Marriott booking chart (I may be off by 1 week here and there)
(2) Find the average points required to book a week in the Vistana season
(3) Haircut 7% (aka "skim")

This methodology is generally gets you very close to the actual point allocation by Marriott for various Marriott legacy weeks and also for WKV.

The results were as follows:

PLATINUM Season SPECULATED point allocation
Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR
2,122 DC Points2,711 DC Points3,861 DC Points4,428 DC Points5,261 DC Points

GOLD Season SPECULATED point allocation
Small 1BRLarge 1BR2BR2BR Lockoff3BR
1,507 DC Points1,997 DC Points2,802 DC Points3,292 DC Points3,882 DC Points

At first, I found it extremely odd that they did not have a point premium for 4th of July week in the Gold Season (week 26) , as there is a large rental premium. But then I looked up some of their FL coastal weeks (Ocean Pointe, Oceana Palms, Crystal Shores) which are basically the same weather, and saw they also don't have a premium point booking requirement for the 4th of July weeks at those resorts either.

Here is the spreadsheet with the numbers, in case someone wants to try and do this for another resort/season.

View attachment 61906
Thanks for doing this Dan, and your logic makes sense.

We did see other properties where Marriott disregarded the silver/gold/platinum and came up with their own point allocation based on their perceived demand. I think I remember summer at Harborside is unusually low from a star options perspective, so we may see higher summer pricing than your point shot. However I definitely agree with the approach and think it will be in this ZIP Code.

Best,

Greg

Edited: my message had many typos -- I was dictating, not drinking.
 
Last edited:

DanCali

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
4,508
Reaction score
1,812
Points
398
Resorts Owned
Vistana, Marriott, DVC
Thanks for doing this Dan, and your logic makes sense.

We did see other properties where Marriott disregard of the silver gold platinum and came up with their own point allocation based on their perceive demand. I think I remember summer and Harborside is unusually low power star options perspective, so we may see Heier summer pricing than your point shot. However I definitely agree with the approach and think it will be in this ZIP Code.

Best,

Greg

I did a bunch of this type of reverse engineering when the program launched in 2010. I do believe it's pretty much how they do it, give or take 1-2% on the skim.

Here is the same methodology applied to WKV Platinum season.

The actual allocation is 2150 for the small1BR, and 4050 for the 2BR lockoff. I believe we're definitely in the same zip code on this one as the calculation is off by less than 5 DC points. :)

1659925096555.png
 
Last edited:

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
16,286
Reaction score
10,739
Points
1,048
Location
Somewhere Out There
I did a bunch of this type of reverse engineering when the program launched in 2010. I do believe it's pretty much how they do it give or take 1-2% on the skim.

Here is the same methodology applied to WKV Platinum season.

The actual allocation is 2150 for the small1BR, and 4050 for the 2BR lockoff. I believe we're definitely in the same zip code on this one as the calculation is off by less than 5 DC points. :)

View attachment 61946
From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,683
Reaction score
19,189
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?
As I understand, it is give or take 1-2% on the skim. The skim is still 7%, but that number could be off +/- 1-2%.
 

DanCali

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
4,508
Reaction score
1,812
Points
398
Resorts Owned
Vistana, Marriott, DVC
From your analysis, i.e. reverse engineering, is skim really only 1 to 2% as opposed to the widely held belief of 7 to 8%?


No - I was assuming 7% skim. What I meant is that the analysis can be off by an extra 1-2% on the skim (so the skim varies around 5%-9%).

But if you correctly match the weeks to the points required to book them (sometimes it's easy to make a mistake if points jump at the start or end of the deeded season and you accidentally match the wrong week) then 6%-7% seems like a solid assumption.

A couple of other examples for Marriott Fixed Event weeks at Newport Coast Villas:

NCV week 26 (4th of July): points required to book are 5675 and point allocation is 5300 (6.6% skim)
NCV week 52 (New Year): points required to book are 4950 and point allocation is 4625 (6.6% skim)
 
Last edited:

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
1,220
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.) To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before. Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.

Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands. I’m happy to carry my key. And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky. But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us. I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.

It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group. I definitely haven’t received one.
 

Attachments

  • 9B437E68-683C-44FC-BBD3-B77E331DD3D1.jpeg
    9B437E68-683C-44FC-BBD3-B77E331DD3D1.jpeg
    52.7 KB · Views: 117

Red elephant

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2021
Messages
763
Reaction score
236
Points
103
Location
Georgia
Resorts Owned
WSJ
Harborside
Nanea
SDO
SVV
SBP
Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.) To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before. Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.

Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands. I’m happy to carry my key. And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky. But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us. I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.

It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group. I definitely haven’t received one.
SBP has those wristbands. They gave me two there and you can use it to open the gate as well. It’s not that bulky and not that noticeable as it’s grey. Matter of fact a lot of resorts have them. Got one at JW Crystal Shores too.
 

alexadeparis

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,769
Reaction score
517
Points
474
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Resorts Owned
Points: Hilton EVEN, Hyatt ODD Annual: WSJ, HRA
Someone on FB posted photos of a Westin Vacation Club kit they just received by FedEx that contains Westin-branded wrist bands (the sort that MVC uses in their resorts, which double as room keys and are necessary to charge purchases to the room.) To my knowledge, Vistana has never used the RFID wristbands before. Supposedly they are being sent to all owners (or maybe just elite owners) and are color coded to your elite level.

Personally, I would probably never wear one of these bulky, uncomfortable wristbands. I’m happy to carry my key. And I’m not really interested in advertising my elite status to everyone around me, so I find the color coding to be kind of tacky. But I guess if reports are true, these may be coming out way, at least for some of us. I assume it’s fine to stick with key cards for those of us who prefer them.

It's also possible that these are going to new purchasers and not to a broader group. I definitely haven’t received one.
they have had reusable Westin bands for years. You can buy it at the resort, they don't tell you it's reusable, but it is. I just take it home and bring it to the next Westin and have them key it to the room with the same machine they make the keys on. I use one for my husband who has dementia so i know he always has his key - but it doesn't help him remember his room number. They aren't as giant as this one pictured in the kit.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,683
Reaction score
19,189
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
Thes wristbands look different than the ones at the resorts (Marriott and Vistana) now. The ones at the resorts are a single rubber loop, those pictured here look more like they fasten like a watch or Disney Magicband.

We had issues getting our previously purchased Westin wristbands programmed at Westin Kierland Villas a couple weeks ago. They simply wouldn't program where they programmed last year. I wonder if the computer system switchover made earlier this year made those old bands not able to be programed. Has anyone used old band recently and did you have issues getting them programmed at checkin? I thought they might just switch them out for new ones, but got the impression they expected me to buy more.
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
1,220
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
Interesting, in 20 years of travel to Vistana resorts (mostly Maui and California, but I’ve been to many of the others too) I’ve never been offered or made aware of wristbands. I’ve only seen them at some of the Marriott properties. Heard lots of stories about how they are supposed to work across properties but often don’t.

I get why some would like them, they’d be great for kids who’d otherwise lose the cards, etc. But I would just want to put it in my pocket where it would be much bulkier and more annoying.
 

sharr7

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
137
Reaction score
137
Points
103
Location
Philadelphia, PA
If there's actually a delay until Fall, I don't think it'll be due to IT issues...From MVW 2Q earnings report:

Second Quarter 2022 Highlights:
  • Consolidated Vacation Ownership contract sales were $506 million, a 40% increase compared to the second quarter of 2021, and VPG increased 7% to $4,613.
They're making a killing on all the lies about Abound, they probably realized they can make more money making empty promises than actually selling people on the new program. Bet the sales staffs are begging for delays. But hey maybe I'm just too skeptical and it'll launch tomorrow. There's an investor call tomorrow AM

 

kozykritter

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
1,264
Reaction score
1,107
Points
373
Location
Here, There and Everywhere
Resorts Owned
Sheraton Flex, MVC Points, Worldmark
If there's actually a delay until Fall, I don't think it'll be due to IT issues...From MVW 2Q earnings report:

Second Quarter 2022 Highlights:
  • Consolidated Vacation Ownership contract sales were $506 million, a 40% increase compared to the second quarter of 2021, and VPG increased 7% to $4,613.
They're making a killing on all the lies about Abound, they probably realized they can make more money making empty promises than actually selling people on the new program. Bet the sales staffs are begging for delays. But hey maybe I'm just too skeptical and it'll launch tomorrow. There's an investor call tomorrow AM

Interesting. After reading the stuff that you linked, I feel like some of their words could be misleading to investors. They state that they have "introduced" Marriott by Abound during the quarter but without clarification it sounds like they actually implemented it rather than just told people it was coming.

Here's another tidbit:

"In connection with the launch of Abound by Marriott Vacations and the unification of the Company's Marriott-, Westin-, and Sheraton-branded vacation ownership products, the Company intends to align its revenue recognition on the sale of vacation ownership interests across all of its brands in the third quarter."

I guess you could read it as they are launching Abound in the third quarter though that requires some interpretation backwards from the fact that they're reporting combined income from all three programs in this next (current) quarter.

I suppose tomorrow's investor presentation will clarify some of this but it doesn't help people that are just reading these results IMHO.
 

jabberwocky

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
2,829
Reaction score
2,584
Points
348
Resorts Owned
SVR, SDO, WKORV-N, Westin Flex, HGVC (BLVD)
Here's another tidbit:

"In connection with the launch of Abound by Marriott Vacations and the unification of the Company's Marriott-, Westin-, and Sheraton-branded vacation ownership products, the Company intends to align its revenue recognition on the sale of vacation ownership interests across all of its brands in the third quarter."

I guess you could read it as they are launching Abound in the third quarter though that requires some interpretation backwards from the fact that they're reporting combined income from all three programs in this next (current) quarter.
I wouldn’t read to much into the revenue recognition piece. They are already reporting the combined income in their consolidated statements.

It may be that they have slightly different recognition policies for when they recognize the revenue for sales and are looking to harmonize them across the company for those brands in Abound. With them now using the MVC sales platforms (as appears to be the case) this makes sense.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,683
Reaction score
19,189
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,394
Reaction score
1,220
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.
I imagine revenue was way down in 2020 – who was buying timeshares during the height of the pandemic lockdowns and restrictions? So I’m thinking that 2021 is partly a rebound after a bad year, plus all the “you need to buy now to take advantage of the merger that’s coming” sales tactics. There has been a lot of FOMO and uncertainty and I think their sales capitalizes on both of those.

PV sale just closed, i think, so that would be recognized in 2022 I think. Might be reported separately as it’s more extraordinary event than routine sales.

Welk is undoubtedly a factor in increased sales.
 

jabberwocky

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
2,829
Reaction score
2,584
Points
348
Resorts Owned
SVR, SDO, WKORV-N, Westin Flex, HGVC (BLVD)
PV sale just closed, i think, so that would be recognized in 2022 I think. Might be reported separately as it’s more extraordinary event than routine sales.
The PV sale will be reported as a gain or loss on sale, net of any taxes and will be reported in the period when the transaction closes. It’s not included in the revenue at all.
 

sharr7

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
137
Reaction score
137
Points
103
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Could revenue was also be up because of the disposition of the Puerto Vallarta property? Or would we have to wait until formal closing. I see they are also only comparing contract sales to 2021 Q2 numbers and not pre pandemic. We must also realize that they have Welk in the mix now too which ads to contract sales when compared to 2021.
This made me curious enough to look.

Q2 Contract Sales:
2018: $205M
2019: $350M
2020: $30M (ouch)
2021: $362M
2022: $506M

Q2 VPG (volume per guest):
2019: $3,299
2021: $4,304
2022: $4,613

I think that's per guest "update" - no wonder they offer you $100 or more - you're worth almost $5k to them.
 

kozykritter

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
1,264
Reaction score
1,107
Points
373
Location
Here, There and Everywhere
Resorts Owned
Sheraton Flex, MVC Points, Worldmark
Listening to the earnings presentation. It's basically a long session of MVW execs patting themselves on the back...I guess I shouldn't be surprised ;)

What has surprised me is that in their responses to earnings questions, they keep presenting Abound as though the integration has been fully launched. They are saying things like Westin and Sheraton owners have direct booking access to MVC and are on equal footing to MVC owners in that respect now yet we know differently. I was so tempted to get into the question queue and ask them if Abound has actually launched! But they only took five questions, all from from people they clearly already knew (a total boys club) so I guess not.
 
Last edited:

sharr7

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
137
Reaction score
137
Points
103
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Listening to the earnings presentation. It's basically a long session of MVW execs patting themselves on the back...I guess I shouldn't be surprised ;)

What has surprised me is in their responses to earnings questions, they keep presenting Abound as though the integration has been fully launched. They are saying things like Westin and Sheraton owners have direct booking access to MVC and are on equal footing to MVC owners in that respect now yet we know differently. I was so tempted to get into the question queue and ask them if Abound has actually launched! But they only took five questions, all from from people they clearly already knew (a total boys club) so I guess not.
I caught the end and also thought it was weird when they got a question about the impacts of the integration how the response was basically "it's still early but we're liking what we're seeing" instead of "we haven't actually launched it yet." Guess you can say whatever you want even to the large banks heavily invested in your company who get to ask questions on the call.
 

kozykritter

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
1,264
Reaction score
1,107
Points
373
Location
Here, There and Everywhere
Resorts Owned
Sheraton Flex, MVC Points, Worldmark
Another thing that might interest people is they don't expect to add any additional inventory over the next couple of years except from buybacks/ROFR and from the Waikiki Pulse (no date given for its completion). This means no buildouts planned during that time for places like SBP and WDW that have the established future building sites on their maps and actually on the ground. Not a surprise given what we know.

So in the end they provided no information about when Abound will launch. Given that the website popup from June (that said it was coming later this summer and to watch for more info in the coming weeks) is gone and have been replaced this week on the MVC website with a message from Ron Essig, SVP Owner Srvcs ("We are excited to bring the Marriott Vacation Club®, Sheraton® Vacation Club, and Westin® Vacation Club products together in the coming months"), I think we can start looking at an October/November launch as more realistic. I'm going to make my 2023 plans from that assumption.
 
Last edited:

samcar1

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2020
Messages
81
Reaction score
17
Points
68
Resorts Owned
Vistanta 4*
I’m still hearing today. I guess we will see.
 

JimT

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
37
Reaction score
14
Points
368
Called Customer Service for both Vistana and Marriott. Customer Service is not allowed to share any information - all calls Re: "Abound" are referred to sales. Can not transfer to sales, only can put in a request for sales to call you and it may take several days for sales to get back to you. Very disappointing they are telling the investors program is fully launched but will not permit customer service to talk about it. Hope others have a better experience.

As an example customer service could not tell me conversion rates or the new deadline dates for next year.

Received a call from an agent - she could not answer any questions - was only able to schedule a 90 minute virtual presentation by a sales rep. So currently they will only answer questions about Marriott Abound and our accounts in a 90 minute sales presentation.

As background - from 2Q22 Investor call on 8/9/2022:

".... we launched vacation next a multi-year journey beginning with the introduction of Abound by Marriott Vacations, which unifies our Marriott branded vacation ownership products. Through this new program, Marriott, Westin and Sheraton owners now have direct access to more than 90 branded resorts around the world using a common points currency. The vacation next journey will continue to leverage our investment in technology for enhanced digital experience, while transforming our marketing sales and service for owners and the next-generation of travelers.

We began pre-marketing the unified product at our Marriott, Westin and Sheraton sales centers at the end of March. And I'm happy to say that as of today, the majority of our sales centers have started selling our newly unified product. While still early in the process, feedback from owners has been very positive."
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top