Thoughts on Trust for MVC enrolled weeks

[Dean]

We have 18 weeks total and all are enrolled. I've looked at possibly putting them into a trust in the past and at the time had decided not to do so. Marriott Title department is strongly suggesting that we consider it vs changing the title to include the adult children. I have confirmed that the weeks will stay enrolled either way. Creating 2 separate sets with different names will make it so the weeks don't all work together and will generate 2 club dues yearly but it will keep the usage and management simpler with the 2 adult children who get along but sometimes look at things differently. So my questions center around the trust issue, esp if anyone has done so and how the change went as well as how they function after being in the trust esp in regards to Reward status and usage. I'm OK with the expense of setting up a trust, changing the titles and filing the paperwork yearly (would use LT transfers in all likelihood unless someone can recommend someone that will do this as a bundle cheaper) but I realize that I don't know what I don't know and the devil's in the details. I have an open slate at this point so all thoughts and suggestions are welcome regarding a trust, avoiding a trust or others methods to accomplish the same goals of keeping this simple as a legacy issue.

 

[CA Richard]

We have 18 weeks total and all are enrolled. I've looked at possibly putting them into a trust in the past and at the time had decided not to do so. Marriott Title department is strongly suggesting that we consider it vs changing the title to include the adult children. I have confirmed that the weeks will stay enrolled either way. Creating 2 separate sets with different names will make it so the weeks don't all work together and will generate 2 club dues yearly but it will keep the usage and management simpler with the 2 adult children who get along but sometimes look at things differently. So my questions center around the trust issue, esp if anyone has done so and how the change went as well as how they function after being in the trust esp in regards to Reward status and usage. I'm OK with the expense of setting up a trust, changing the titles and filing the paperwork yearly (would use LT transfers in all likelihood unless someone can recommend someone that will do this as a bundle cheaper) but I realize that I don't know what I don't know and the devil's in the details. I have an open slate at this point so all thoughts and suggestions are welcome regarding a trust, avoiding a trust or others methods to accomplish the same goals of keeping this simple as a legacy issue.

I have one note of caution Dean. I set up a family trust and put many things into it, including our home, investment accounts, and timeshare deeds. The only problem I’ve had involves reservations. Apparently MVC has difficulty recognizing that it is your reservation. On more than one occasion, I’ve gone to check in and they could not find my reservation. Apparently the reservation is under the last name of “Trust” instead of your own name. If you have your reservation number they can find it, or they can look up under they last name of “Trust” to find it. They admitted that reservations made under a trust ownership can cause this issue.

 

[Dean]

I have one note of caution Dean. I set up a family trust and put many things into it, including our home, investment accounts, and timeshare deeds. The only problem I’ve had involves reservations. Apparently MVC has difficulty recognizing that it is your reservation. On more than one occasion, I’ve gone to check in and they could not find my reservation. Apparently the reservation is under the last name of “Trust” instead of your own name. If you have your reservation number they can find it, or they can look up under they last name of “Trust” to find it. They admitted that reservations made under a trust ownership can cause this issue.

Thanks, that's the type of issue I want to learn about. How does it work with your rewards # and account? Do you need a new one for the trust? I do recall when this came up let year someone said they had trouble getting the transfer completed successfully and in their account. We likely would only do the Marriott timeshares initially but might add our home and non retirement accounts later if we're happy how it's working. We likely would not fool with the other timeshares as my daughter is on the rest already or is an associate and can make and use reservations with those she is not.

 

[mjm1]

Thanks, that's the type of issue I want to learn about. How does it work with your rewards # and account? Do you need a new one for the trust? I do recall when this came up let year someone said they had trouble getting the transfer completed successfully and in their account. We likely would only do the Marriott timeshares initially but might add our home and non retirement accounts later if we're happy how it's working. We likely would not fool with the other timeshares as my daughter is on the rest already or is an associate and can make and use reservations with those she is not.

We have all of our ownerships in our family trust, which we did during our purchase process. We encountered the issue of a reservation being under our trust name, but I usually edit the name when making a DC points reservation, so the issue doesn’t occur there. My Bonvoy number is attached to our MVC ownership, so we haven’t had any issues with it being detached from a reservation.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[vacationtime1]

Our timeshares are all titled to our family trust. No issues (excepting the occasional communication addressed to "Mr Trust").

DW gets her Bonvoy points and night stay credit seamlessly (her MR number is associated with the ownership).

 

[CA Richard]

Thanks, that's the type of issue I want to learn about. How does it work with your rewards # and account? Do you need a new one for the trust? I do recall when this came up let year someone said they had trouble getting the transfer completed successfully and in their account. We likely would only do the Marriott timeshares initially but might add our home and non retirement accounts later if we're happy how it's working. We likely would not fool with the other timeshares as my daughter is on the rest already or is an associate and can make and use reservations with those she is not.

No problem at all with BONVoY points or nights credits, just the occasional “Mr Trust” issue.

 

[chris5]

Hmmmm, I have one enrolled week and some Destination Club Points. I have Lifetime Titanium status in Bonvoy, but wife enjoys only Platinum status in Bonvoy. We have a Revocable Living Trust (and administer an Irrevocable Trust for the benefit of my BIL and our children, created by my MIL). We've dropped almost all of our assets -- personal residence, investment real estate, banking accounts, (and retirement accounts as accumulated trust ownership interests) into our RLT, excepting cars, other valuable, tangible personal property, and timeshare ownership interests. I don't think it makes any sense to try to transfer, if even possible, Bonvoy membership into a Trust, especially for a couple where each has its own status.

I would be inclined to drop the interests into our RLT, if we were convinced our children would want these timeshare interests and would manage them -- we would even dictate that the Trust (which would become an Irrevocable Trust when both of us are gone) pay for all maintenance fees with the timeshares. But while our children have enjoyed using these timeshares, occasionally, they have not enjoyed them enough to persuade them to want to own them directly or through a Trust arrangement. We'll see if this continues to be the case as their families are expanding with our grandchildren.

Our current thinking is to keep these timeshare interests out of our Trust and deed them to our children (jointly) upon our death. In this way, our children can decide whether they want these interests -- they can disclaim/renounce these interests if they are inclined not to take them. I would not want to burden them with on-going, perpetual maintenance fees, whether paid by a Trust or by them directly unless they fully accept that burden.

I think the idea of placing timeshares in a Trust or re-titling these interests to children gets over-hyped by Marriott. Several Marriott sales representatives have suggested this to us -- my wife and I (both retired lawyers) don't think it makes much sense, absent heirs who want this stuff and who want their inheritances to pay for this in perpetuity. Obviously, Marriott has a significant interest in roping your children into timeshare ownership! If the OP is in a state that permits Transfer on Death Deeds, I'd seriously look at those instruments. Nonetheless, the OP should ask what exactly he or she wants to accomplish by putting them in a Trust.

 

[bogey21]

I think the idea of placing timeshares in a Trust or re-titling these interests to children gets over-hyped by Marriott. Several Marriott sales representatives have suggested this to us -- my wife and I (both retired lawyers) don't think it makes much sense, absent heirs who want this stuff and who want their inheritances to pay for this in perpetuity. Obviously, Marriott has a significant interest in roping your children into timeshare ownership! If the OP is in a state that permits Transfer on Death Deeds, I'd seriously look at those instruments. Nonetheless, the OP should ask what exactly he or she wants to accomplish by putting them in a Trust.

My thoughts exactly and I'm not even a retired lawyer...

George

 

[Dean]

Our timeshares are all titled to our family trust. No issues (excepting the occasional communication addressed to "Mr Trust").

DW gets her Bonvoy points and night stay credit seamlessly (her MR number is associated with the ownership).

No problem at all with BONVoY points or nights credits, just the occasional “Mr Trust” issue.

Great, thanks. It's good to know it's workable both not the usage side and the rewards side.

Hmmmm, I have one enrolled week and some Destination Club Points. I have Lifetime Titanium status in Bonvoy, but wife enjoys only Platinum status in Bonvoy. We have a Revocable Living Trust (and administer an Irrevocable Trust for the benefit of my BIL and our children, created by my MIL). We've dropped almost all of our assets -- personal residence, investment real estate, banking accounts, (and retirement accounts as accumulated trust ownership interests) into our RLT, excepting cars, other valuable, tangible personal property, and timeshare ownership interests. I don't think it makes any sense to try to transfer, if even possible, Bonvoy membership into a Trust, especially for a couple where each has its own status.

I would be inclined to drop the interests into our RLT, if we were convinced our children would want these timeshare interests and would manage them -- we would even dictate that the Trust (which would become an Irrevocable Trust when both of us are gone) pay for all maintenance fees with the timeshares. But while our children have enjoyed using these timeshares, occasionally, they have not enjoyed them enough to persuade them to want to own them directly or through a Trust arrangement. We'll see if this continues to be the case as their families are expanding with our grandchildren.

Our current thinking is to keep these timeshare interests out of our Trust and deed them to our children (jointly) upon our death. In this way, our children can decide whether they want these interests -- they can disclaim/renounce these interests if they are inclined not to take them. I would not want to burden them with on-going, perpetual maintenance fees, whether paid by a Trust or by them directly unless they fully accept that burden.

I think the idea of placing timeshares in a Trust or re-titling these interests to children gets over-hyped by Marriott. Several Marriott sales representatives have suggested this to us -- my wife and I (both retired lawyers) don't think it makes much sense, absent heirs who want this stuff and who want their inheritances to pay for this in perpetuity. Obviously, Marriott has a significant interest in roping your children into timeshare ownership! If the OP is in a state that permits Transfer on Death Deeds, I'd seriously look at those instruments. Nonetheless, the OP should ask what exactly he or she wants to accomplish by putting them in a Trust.

Thanks for the information and insight. Some of your concerns and choices don't fit our situation I don't believe. We have 2 adult children who both want and will use the timeshares and we have plans and intentions to leave sufficient funds to cover the fees long term. At this time I'm trying to plan the best long term solution and it's either a trust or change the title to include the children possibly each child with half. For Bonvoy Kim's status is dependent on the timeshare membership, mine is lifetime Titanium. None of us know when something will happen but it is my intent to get my ducks in a row, save up sufficient funds and then transfer in one way or another as we get to or after retirement. Until we're ready, I'll wait so they still have options for some of the reasons you mentioned.

As for disclaiming the timeshares, wouldn't the estate still be responsible and wouldn't be able to be settled until those were taken care of in some way? That's my understanding at least. To be clear, this wasn't something Marriott suggested out of the blue, they only did so when I inquired to be certain that if they were retitled to an adult child that they would stay enrolled. They seem to get hung up on the idea of 2 club dues which I don't consider a big deal in our situation given the volume and that we can have 2 Chairman's Club accounts if we chose that route.

 

[chris5]

As for disclaiming the timeshares, wouldn't the estate still be responsible and wouldn't be able to be settled until those were taken care of in some way? That's my understanding at least.

The timeshares may well end up in the estate, but our estate might have little, if any assets, to handle maintenance fees, save for potential tax refunds. We're not even sure there would be a need to probate an estate, even with "pour-over" provisions in our wills. So, let's assume that we weren't successful in handling transfer of these timeshare interests while we're living and they wind up in our estate because our heirs have disclaimed them when we tried to transfer them by Transfer of Death deeds. They are now in our estate technically, but there are no other assets or liabilities to probate (except the timeshares). I'm not really worried about starting or closing probate when the only thing that might be in probate are timeshares. (Though, again, In my case, I expect virturally all assets to be disposed during our lifetime in our trusts or directly transferred to people or charities.)

I think the end result of this situation, if the timeshares are technically in an estate with no assets to handle on-going maintenance, is that there would be a default in maintenance fee payments and the timeshare sponsor would then foreclose on the interests and take over our timeshare interests -- problem solved for my estate or heirs, I think. Or if the executor of our wills started a probate proceeding, the executor can try to sell the timeshares.

Nonetheless, I need to check to see if these timeshares would wind up in our estate if disclaimed and that our executor named in our wills would need to probate an estate if timeshares were the only items in an estate.

 

[Dean]

The timeshares may well end up in the estate, but our estate might have little, if any assets, to handle maintenance fees, save for potential tax refunds. We're not even sure there would be a need to probate an estate, even with "pour-over" provisions in our wills. So, let's assume that we weren't successful in handling transfer of these timeshare interests while we're living and they wind up in our estate because our heirs have disclaimed them when we tried to transfer them by Transfer of Death deeds. They are now in our estate technically, but there are no other assets or liabilities to probate (except the timeshares). I'm not really worried about starting or closing probate when the only thing that might be in probate are timeshares. (Though, again, In my case, I expect virturally all assets to be disposed during our lifetime in our trusts or directly transferred to people or charities.)

I think the end result of this situation, if the timeshares are technically in an estate with no assets to handle on-going maintenance, is that there would be a default in maintenance fee payments and the timeshare sponsor would then foreclose on the interests and take over our timeshare interests -- problem solved for my estate or heirs, I think. Or if the executor of our wills started a probate proceeding, the executor can try to sell the timeshares.

Nonetheless, I need to check to see if these timeshares would wind up in our estate if disclaimed and that our executor named in our wills would need to probate an estate if timeshares were the only items in an estate.

I am certain they would still be in the estate but if there's not enough to fool with probate then I agree, it wouldn't matter. From what I've been told typically the executor can get the judge to remove them from the estate after a period of time if due dilligence has been served such as trying to sell or give them back. But I'm sure that's case by case. But it might be important for some. I appreciate our thoughts and sharing your information and situation. I'm going to ponder and investigate over a couple of years before I decide unless there are health or other changes that push us sooner. As long as one of us is surviving and competent, we can make the changes at any time.

 

[Big Matt]

You have an enormous portfolio, Dean. I'd first ask your kids if they even want all of them. You may consider if a plan to get rid of them is in order once you are not as capable of using them. Things change. As for the trust, it will be a simple transfer upon your death with no need for probate, so if you are going to keep them and they want them long term then it's probably worth it. It should be fairly inexpensive. I don't recall what I paid to do this for my five rental properties, but it was very inexpensive.

 

[Dean]

You have an enormous portfolio, Dean. I'd first ask your kids if they even want all of them. You may consider if a plan to get rid of them is in order once you are not as capable of using them. Things change. As for the trust, it will be a simple transfer upon your death with no need for probate, so if you are going to keep them and they want them long term then it's probably worth it. It should be fairly inexpensive. I don't recall what I paid to do this for my five rental properties, but it was very inexpensive.

Thanks and we have considered those issues for some time. I have had detail discussions with both children and they both want them and at this time, all of the MVC weeks. I just want them to be a blessing and not a curse so until I can ensure I can leave sufficient funds to make sure the ownership is a blessing, we won't proceed with something that locks them in and if something happens in the interim, they can always change them at that point. I've also left detailed information how to do so in case it gets to that. My intent over the next couple of years is make sure they work with them hands on so they are functional with the ownerships and to continue to save to accomplish the above goal. I'm figuring under $5K to do them all currently with LT Transfers. I'd really hate for them to have to deal with probate potentially in 4 states. My main concern with the trust is that while they get along, sometimes they don't see eye to eye on the entire matter so their is the potential for conflict if I leave them all under one umbrella.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Dean; smart move in dividing things up in advance!

My sibling and myself were left joint ownership of property and it's been nothing but a big headache. As siblings we don't get along at all, and it only makes things worse when the property was left to us like it was. We never see eye to eye on anything!



.

 

[Dean]

Dean; smart move in dividing things up in advance!

My sibling and myself were left joint ownership of property and it's been nothing but a big headache. As siblings we don't get along at all, and it only makes things worse when the property was left to us like it was. We never see eye to eye on anything!



.

Thanks for the perspective, sorry it's working that way for you (or not working well). I learned a long time ago to practice risk management at every opportunity. Unfortunately some are currently learning the reasons I feel so strongly about doing so. I guess we could do 2 trusts and split them also if we decide that's an issue and if we decide the trust is still the best option. Ultimately we'll have to decide what to do at some point or if not, they'll have to decide. Advantages of doing something before the end means I get to control it, I'll likely do it better since I'll probably know more than they would if they had to do it, I can pay for the transfers and make sure that is also done correctly. At this point planning to purposefully wait a few years hoping to time it so I can get it done but there is less risk and more funds to cover fees. I'll probably set a cutoff date somewhere around or shortly after full retirement. Hopefully I won't drive the board crazy on this subject in the mean time. I do realize nothing will be perfect and ultimately we'll have to make a decision or else it'll be made for us at some point. And certainly things could change either on the home front or with the timeshares that may alter what the best decision should be.

 

[dioxide45]

Transferring the number of weeks you have in to a trust would be a significant cost and I can understand wanting to use LT for this to save on costs. But that may be a penny wise and a pound foolish. Who is handling your trust document preparation? Likely an attorney? Why not have them just handle preparing the deeds? I can understand using LT for a freebie timeshare you got on TUG, but I wouldn't use them for transferring title within an estate. If something ends up wrong, you don't have the same recourse you would with an attorney or licensed title agent.

 

[vacationtime1]

Transferring the number of weeks you have in to a trust would be a significant cost and I can understand wanting to use LT for this to save on costs. But that may be a penny wise and a pound foolish. Who is handling your trust document preparation? Likely an attorney? Why not have them just handle preparing the deeds? I can understand using LT for a freebie timeshare you got on TUG, but I wouldn't use them for transferring title within an estate. If something ends up wrong, you don't have the same recourse you would with an attorney or licensed title agent.

Definitely hire an experienced attorney to write your trust(s). But attorney-prepared deeds are no different and no better than the deeds LT would prepare to transfer the properties into those trusts. Although they are more expensive.

Another factor to consider is that your home state lawyer shouldn't be preparing deeds to out-of-state properties anyway.

 

[bogey21]

Advantages of doing something before the end means I get to control it, I'll likely do it better since I'll probably know more than they would if they had to do it, I can pay for the transfers and make sure that is also done correctly. At this point planning to purposefully wait a few years hoping to time it so I can get it done but there is less risk and more funds to cover fees.

This is close to my way of thinking. What I would do at what I think is the appropriate time (obviously your choice) is transfer the accounts into your kid's names with the understanding that you continue to have use of the Weeks at your discretion. I would also open a JTWROS bank account in name of myself and kids with what I consider the appropriate amount of money to make (in your words) "ownership a blessing". You obviously have to trust your kids. I did this over 20 years ago with all my assets with my kids and ex-wife. Not only has it worked out perfectly as there will be no need to probate my empty estate. The only thing they will have to do is take my Death Certificate to the various Banks, give them a new SSN and ask them to remove my name from the accounts...

George

 

[Dean]

Transferring the number of weeks you have in to a trust would be a significant cost and I can understand wanting to use LT for this to save on costs. But that may be a penny wise and a pound foolish. Who is handling your trust document preparation? Likely an attorney? Why not have them just handle preparing the deeds? I can understand using LT for a freebie timeshare you got on TUG, but I wouldn't use them for transferring title within an estate. If something ends up wrong, you don't have the same recourse you would with an attorney or licensed title agent.

Definitely hire an experienced attorney to write your trust(s). But attorney-prepared deeds are no different and no better than the deeds LT would prepare to transfer the properties into those trusts. Although they are more expensive.

Another factor to consider is that your home state lawyer shouldn't be preparing deeds to out-of-state properties anyway.

Please don't take this as argumentative but I do want to explore the line of thinking. I do have an estate lawyer I use and have discussed a trust with in the past. He'd recommended against it but he was looking at our general situation and we didn't discuss the specifics of timeshares. If I do this, will get him or his replacement (he's my age or slightly older) to write the trust if we go that route. But we're talking 4 states, 1 other country and 18 weeks and he doesn't normally do deeds. Could you see any issues in getting a trust done correctly, getting the estate attorney to tell us (or even them directly) how to title the deeds then getting someone like LT transfers to do them. 11 of them are in SC and I do have a RE attorney I've used there several times, I'll ask him if he'll do a package deal as well. Getting 18 full service closings likely disqualifies the options moving it from around $4-5K to over $10K. In that situation I'd likely just forego the trust since it's essentially the only reason we'd be doing one and might be all we put in it.

I do appreciate the thoughts and information.

 

[vacationtime1]

Please don't take this as argumentative but I do want to explore the line of thinking. I do have an estate lawyer I use and have discussed a trust with in the past. He'd recommended against it but he was looking at our general situation and we didn't discuss the specifics of timeshares. If I do this, will get him or his replacement (he's my age or slightly older) to write the trust if we go that route. But we're talking 4 states, 1 other country and 18 weeks and he doesn't normally do deeds. Could you see any issues in getting a trust done correctly, getting the estate attorney to tell us (or even them directly) how to title the deeds then getting someone like LT transfers to do them. 11 of them are in SC and I do have a RE attorney I've used there several times, I'll ask him if he'll do a package deal as well. Getting 18 full service closings likely disqualifies the options moving it from around $4-5K to over $10K. In that situation I'd likely just forego the trust since it's essentially the only reason we'd be doing one and might be all we put in it.

I do appreciate the thoughts and information.

That's exactly what I was suggesting three posts up.

 

[Dean]

This is close to my way of thinking. What I would do at what I think is the appropriate time (obviously your choice) is transfer the accounts into your kid's names with the understanding that you continue to have use of the Weeks at your discretion. I would also open a JTWROS bank account in name of myself and kids with what I consider the appropriate amount of money to make (in your words) "ownership a blessing". You obviously have to trust your kids. I did this over 20 years ago with all my assets with my kids and ex-wife. Not only has it worked out perfectly as there will be no need to probate my empty estate. The only thing they will have to do is take my Death Certificate to the various Banks, give them a new SSN and ask them to remove my name from the accounts...

George

Thanks George. Planning to fund this mostly by means of our IRA's & 457 plan which already have my wife and the primary beneficiary and the kids as contingents 50/50. I wouldn't want that amount of dollars for 18 weeks sitting in a savings or MM account other than maybe enough to cover a single year plus a little extra. Not necessarily planning to ear mark the funds but to leave them sufficient volume that it won't matter if they continue to make reasonable choices.

That's exactly what I was suggesting three posts up.

I thought so but wasn't certain. Thanks.