• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

This was the first time this offer was made.

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
If you bought from the developer you paid more than you had to.
So, I guess that said, you haven't bought direct, or another here on tug for more than a few years never bought direct from the developer?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
So, I guess that said, you haven't bought direct, or another here on tug for more than a few years never bought direct from the developer?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I made two purchases from Wyndham directly both were 126k eoy contracts at Royal Gardens at Waikiki at about $12000 each ($6000 cash and $150 a month for the rest of my life) so a total of 12k out of pocket.

I think I am an exception to the rule (the rule being, a developer purchase doesnt make sense)

With these two purchases I took one account from nothing to Platinum VIP, and the other from Silver to platinum VIP.. Each of the two accounts had about 10 million points in them that I rent. With the discounts and upgrades and the increased number of guest confirms I think I probably paid myself back in a year. And consider that the $12000 was just a fraction of my rental profits from the year before (So I was playing with "extra" money) I have been using my profits to grow my operation from the beginning. and this was just another step.

Most owners dont rent like I do and among those that do, most dont do the volume that I do, and the loophole I took advantage of doesnt exist anymore, so you cant do it as cheap as I did... all this comes together to offer the advice that I do,, and that is Dont buy direct.

Besides that I dont like the competition

By the way that first Silver account that I mentioned came to me by surprise. I bought 385000 points on ebay (3 converted fixed weeks at Fairfield Harbor) and I became VIP. I expected it to be reversed, but it wasnt.. Most of the other Platinum VIPs here that make any money renting do so with accounts they got like I did, or they inherited an account. Folks that bought their way to platinum are struggling to make their mf. they consider the purchase to have been sunk money. that they may or may not make a return on
 
Last edited:

Bigrob

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,099
Reaction score
141
Points
273
Location
Centreville, VA
Folks that bought their way to platinum are struggling to make their mf. they consider the purchase to have been sunk money. that they may or may not make a return on

And/or they bought lots of developer points when the rules were different (cancellations up to the day before check-in; free guest confirmations; multiple upgrades when available; ability to transfer points between owners, etc.) and have spent most of the last half decade suing Wyndham over it.
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
And/or they bought lots of developer points when the rules were different (cancellations up to the day before check-in; free guest confirmations; multiple upgrades when available; ability to transfer points between owners, etc.) and have spent most of the last half decade suing Wyndham over it.
Suing? I take it those were defendable. Related to what you lost in benifits, most answers to the should I Sue question on tug is that it is a waste of time and money.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

Bigrob

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,099
Reaction score
141
Points
273
Location
Centreville, VA
Suing? I take it those were defendable. Related to what you lost in benifits, most answers to the should I Sue question on tug is that it is a waste of time and money.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I didn't say it was "fruitful". Just that it was an activity for certain Wyndham Owners who bought a large block of developer points under different rules.
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
I didn't say it was "fruitful". Just that it was an activity for certain Wyndham Owners who bought a large block of developer points under different rules.
So you were caught in what Wyndham would call the evolution of the timeshare industry. And what, those caught in it call, getting rear ended.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

OutSkiing

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
538
Reaction score
241
Points
153
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Resorts Owned
Midtown 45, Bali Hai, Margaritaville
What I dont get is why anyone would spend any money get to Silver VIP or if they are already VIP to move to the next level. Unless they want to to make a business out of it and rent 10s of millions points. I cant make the numbers work for just a couple of million. and I certainly cant make them work for personal use. If you want a few more vacations, just buy more points on the secondary market.

I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.

Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).

If you assume 100% of stays are able to discount, then paying maintenence on 1 million points with platinum VIP gets you 2 million travel points. At the gold discount rate of 35% I would need 1.3 million points to get those same 2 million travel points.

So the extra 300,000 points would cost about 300 x $5 = $1500 per year in maintenance fees. Assuming 20 years of travel use and an 8% rate of return the present value of $1500 savings per year at 8% is about $14,000.

If only half of travel stays are discountable then I think doing the same math results in a $9800 value for going platinum.

There is also the benefit of maybe getting more upgrades (at 60 days rather than 45) and of waiting until year end to dump unused points into maintenance fees. Also of having a company such as WynVIP rent the points out for me if I can't travel a while.

I've got a picture of the 'Express PIC' form they use to figure out how many points to give for PICed timeshares I might post here if anyone is interested. It shows the 105k, 154k and 254k points for 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units. I'm just not sure what resort would be the best 3 bedroom unit to use for PIC.

Bob
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.

Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).

If you assume 100% of stays are able to discount, then paying maintenence on 1 million points with platinum VIP gets you 2 million travel points. At the gold discount rate of 35% I would need 1.3 million points to get those same 2 million travel points.

So the extra 300,000 points would cost about 300 x $5 = $1500 per year in maintenance fees. Assuming 20 years of travel use and an 8% rate of return the present value of $1500 savings per year at 8% is about $14,000.

If only half of travel stays are discountable then I think doing the same math results in a $9800 value for going platinum.

There is also the benefit of maybe getting more upgrades (at 60 days rather than 45) and of waiting until year end to dump unused points into maintenance fees. Also of having a company such as WynVIP rent the points out for me if I can't travel a while.

I've got a picture of the 'Express PIC' form they use to figure out how many points to give for PICed timeshares I might post here if anyone is interested. It shows the 105k, 154k and 254k points for 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units. I'm just not sure what resort would be the best 3 bedroom unit to use for PIC.

Bob
It doesn't matter which one you PIC. They are just there, you don't have to turn them over to Wyndham every year, or not at all. If you plan on PICing, turning it over for the Wyndham points, then it would be the one you never use, or the lowest MFs.

You do know that PIC express is for 5yrs?



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
I can justify spending $9800 to $14000 to upgrade from gold to platinum if it were possible.

Gold VIP gets a 35% discount while platinum gets 50% (if cancel/rebook in 60 day window).

If you assume 100% of stays are able to discount, then paying maintenence on 1 million points with platinum VIP gets you 2 million travel points. At the gold discount rate of 35% I would need 1.3 million points to get those same 2 million travel points.

So the extra 300,000 points would cost about 300 x $5 = $1500 per year in maintenance fees. Assuming 20 years of travel use and an 8% rate of return the present value of $1500 savings per year at 8% is about $14,000.

If only half of travel stays are discountable then I think doing the same math results in a $9800 value for going platinum.

There is also the benefit of maybe getting more upgrades (at 60 days rather than 45) and of waiting until year end to dump unused points into maintenance fees. Also of having a company such as WynVIP rent the points out for me if I can't travel a while.

I've got a picture of the 'Express PIC' form they use to figure out how many points to give for PICed timeshares I might post here if anyone is interested. It shows the 105k, 154k and 254k points for 1, 2 and 3 bedroom units. I'm just not sure what resort would be the best 3 bedroom unit to use for PIC.

Bob

Ill accept all your assumptions but there are two things.. I dont accept a 20 year payback... thats way too long for me

Lets assume I have $15000 to spend and instead of buying additional points from Wyndham, I'll invest that money at 8% for a $1200 annual return, Ill put that money toward my increased mf... so now my annual increased cost is just $300 a year (in 20 years $6000)

at the end of 20 years you will have your million points worth roughly zero, and I will have my 1.3 million at the same value. The difference is I will still have my $15000 that I invested 20 years earlier (less the $6000 increase mf I paid)

Do it another way and pay the $1500 additional mf every year and let the $15000 compound at 8% and Ill have nearly $70000 (less the $30000 mf spent over the 20 years) and Im ahead 40k


The real issue with our calculations Is that if you go from Gold to Platinum you started at Gold, and have at least 500000 points you bought from Wyndham. That represents a heck of an investment that you will never "earn" back with a Platinum account. That and to PIC 2 weeks Wyndham will make you buy 105000 points at closer to $20000

To answer your question about PICable weeks, I own two 3 bedroom red weeks That I bought to PIC, (254000 points each) and mf is under $500 each> PM me if you want to know the resort
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
It doesn't matter which one you PIC. They are just there, you don't have to turn them over to Wyndham every year, or not at all. If you plan on PICing, turning it over for the Wyndham points, then it would be the one you never use, or the lowest MFs.

You do know that PIC express is for 5yrs?



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

The maintenance fees make the difference. If you can find two weeks like I did with mf under $500 your dollars to points ratio is really good, and might make the whole deal worthwhile even considering the annual pic fee

$600/254 = $2.40/1000 assume your platinum discount and a week at Bonnet Creek in a 2 bedroom will cost you about $300

The week you choose to PIC matters,
 

OutSkiing

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
538
Reaction score
241
Points
153
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Resorts Owned
Midtown 45, Bali Hai, Margaritaville
Ill accept all your assumptions but there are two things.. I dont accept a 20 year payback... thats way too long for me

...

The real issue with our calculations Is that if you go from Gold to Platinum you started at Gold, and have at least 500000 points you bought from Wyndham. That represents a heck of an investment that you will never "earn" back with a Platinum account. That and to PIC 2 weeks Wyndham will make you buy 105000 points at closer to $20000

Due to the magic of the time value of money, if I re-do the math using 10 years instead of 20 at 8% the 'break even' number comes out to $10000 instead of $14000. When making financial decisions we're supposed to look forward, not backward. Agree my prior Wyndham investments have not been financially sound but that is where I am at - water over the dam put toward entertainment and family time, not supposed to be an investment. My wife is also enamored with the possability of platinum which is why I continue to weigh the tradeoff of using PIC to get there.

Bob
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
The maintenance fees make the difference. If you can find two weeks like I did with mf under $500 your dollars to points ratio is really good, and might make the whole deal worthwhile even considering the annual pic fee

$600/254 = $2.40/1000 assume your platinum discount and a week at Bonnet Creek in a 2 bedroom will cost you about $300

The week you choose to PIC matters,
I see your point, unfortunately I did not have a choice. I only had two one bdrm units to PIC. Fortunately, they were a buy one get one and an rtu in Mexico. They do not have a yearly MF. I also don't see them going to points or leaving RCI.

In your sinerio, are you also using the 60 day window? To double book and cancel, or would that just even lower the cost?

As far as the offer, from the original post, the closer was lieing. As long as my PIC remains eligible for PIC, it passes to my children as gold, as long as the points are not split up.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
Top