The Wellness Industry Is Selling You Snake Oil

[DrQ]

The Wellness Industry Is Selling You Snake Oil​

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for “detox” regimens, some of which may be harmful.​

The wellness industry is selling you snake oil

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for "detox" regimens, some of which may be harmful.

www.motherjones.com

 

[jp10558]

The Wellness Industry has been Snake Oil for decades, and reported on for at least several. Of course, look up the actual history of Snake Oil and (if the podcast I heard about it wasn't lying to me) originally it was a very specific snake that actually did a little bit of pain killing. This to me is an even better analogy because some tiny bits of that stuff eventually does come to be shown to work, and lots of it is basically psychological improvement from "doing something" (i.e. maybe placebo effect if that's actually not just an artifact of our statistics). You mostly need to avoid the things that are actively harmful, and then it's at worst a money wasting ritual - which might still make you feel better. Of course, never substitute for actual treatments and always check with your doctor.

 

[billymach4]

The Wellness Industry Is Selling You Snake Oil​

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for “detox” regimens, some of which may be harmful.​

The wellness industry is selling you snake oil

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for "detox" regimens, some of which may be harmful.

www.motherjones.com

Why am I not surprised

 

[easyrider]

It kind of depends, imo. Just because something is debunked by an organization doesn't really mean it doesn't work. It means they don't know why it works or they are lying. For instance, if you have a hangover and take oxygen, it really seems to help alleviate the hangover. Many experts, obviously experts that haven't tried oxygen for a hangover, have debunked this.

Bill

 

[simpsontruckdriver]

Another example of Snake Oil = Fish Oil. In a study, researchers found that in people with high blood pressure and/or high cholesterol. taking fish oil DID NOTHING! And a few subjects died from cardiac arrest.

One that actually works is Cinnamon. Researchers found that taking Cinnamon prevents the wild up and down of blood sugar in T-2 Diabetics., it does not replace Insulin or Metformin. It worked for my late mother-in-law, she found she did not need s much Insulin while taking it.

TS

 

[davidvel]

It kind of depends, imo. Just because something is debunked by an organization doesn't really mean it doesn't work. It means they don't know why it works or they are lying. For instance, if you have a hangover and take oxygen, it really seems to help alleviate the hangover. Many experts, obviously experts that haven't tried oxygen for a hangover, have debunked this.

Bill

More poppycock. No evidence oxygen helps a hangover and no sensible person would think so. Only gullible (susceptible?) people would think otherwise.

Not that it matters, but I have tried it at the O2 bars in Vegas (paid by a family member). A fool and his money are soon parted. It failed for all of us. However a free bloody Mary at the poker bar worked perfectly.

 

[Brett]

The Wellness Industry Is Selling You Snake Oil​

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for “detox” regimens, some of which may be harmful.​

The wellness industry is selling you snake oil

Experts have repeatedly debunked the health claims for "detox" regimens, some of which may be harmful.

www.motherjones.com

And medical professionals say that brain supplements like Prevagen, Neuriva, etc. don't actually improve memory

Shocking news!

 

[davidvel]

And medical professionals say that brain supplements like Prevagen, Neuriva, etc. don't actually improve memory

Shocking news!


View attachment 97431

All these supplement and related advertisements tell you how they are going to make you smarter, harder, and end your pain (in that order.) Then they follow up with the DSHEA disclaimer This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any condition/disease. If so, why do people pay hundreds of millions for the products?

 

[jp10558]

It kind of depends, imo. Just because something is debunked by an organization doesn't really mean it doesn't work. It means they don't know why it works or they are lying. For instance, if you have a hangover and take oxygen, it really seems to help alleviate the hangover. Many experts, obviously experts that haven't tried oxygen for a hangover, have debunked this.

Bill

It seems like there would be studies proving this if it worked. But the idea that we should start by assuming "debunks" are wrong is generally a bad idea. From my quick search, this seems like an obvious placebo effect - i.e. - doing something makes people feel better, and then there's lots of ads from companies selling something promoting oxygen for hangovers.

 

[jp10558]

All these supplement and related advertisements tell you how they are going to make you smarter, harder, and end your pain (in that order.) Then they follow up with the DSHEA disclaimer This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any condition/disease. If so, why do people pay hundreds of millions for the products?

I think just to make themselves feel better. Psychologically many people seem to want to feel like they're taking some action, and just waiting is often very stressful.

 

[easyrider]

It seems like there would be studies proving this if it worked. But the idea that we should start by assuming "debunks" are wrong is generally a bad idea. From my quick search, this seems like an obvious placebo effect - i.e. - doing something makes people feel better, and then there's lots of ads from companies selling something promoting oxygen for hangovers.

Says the person that's never tried it, lol.

Alcohol can constrict blood vessels and oxygen, in the case of a hangover, can relax and widen blood vessels through a process called vasodilation. Hyperventilating removes alcohol from most people at three to four times the liver recovery rate which can also help with a hangover.

A pier reviewed study has a very high price tag. No one is going to study something they aren't going to make money off of. Studies are paid for by the owners of the study which is another reason to think they are biased.

Bill

 

[DrQ]

A pier reviewed study has a very high price tag. ...

This kind of "pier" review?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Auto correct strikes again. . . .

 

[jp10558]

Says the person that's never tried it, lol.

Alcohol can constrict blood vessels and oxygen, in the case of a hangover, can relax and widen blood vessels through a process called vasodilation. Hyperventilating removes alcohol from most people at three to four times the liver recovery rate which can also help with a hangover.

A pier reviewed study has a very high price tag. No one is going to study something they aren't going to make money off of. Studies are paid for by the owners of the study which is another reason to think they are biased.

Bill

This is just a very bad and dangerous epistemological point of view in my opinion. It's basically conspiratorial thinking. This logic means that all of us who haven't bought the latest developer pitch for timeshares cannot know that the latest sales pitch and "benefits of developer purchase" won't change our lives and is in fact the best investment we could ever make. I mean, the salesperson will tell you that, and you haven't tried it this time.

Even if you walk back your logic there to a claim as weak as "well, for a few people I know of, buying developer really worked out for them and they're really enjoying the small perks. There's the "Timeshare Traveller" youtube channel as a cite, as well as RENTER I think. I still wouldn't say that as a general rule, say equivalent to using Advil for a headache, that buying Developer is a good idea. I'd make the claim, backed up by TUG, that everyone would save money buying resale, and in fact, almost no one should buy Developer at all.

Finally, to the idea that no one studies things they aren't going to make money off of - plenty of people do. It's at least loosely analogous to saying "no one would promote resale timeshares or how to get the most bang for your buck from your timeshare unless they're making money on it". But of course that's not true, and the vast majority of people on TUG do it because we like helping others, or we like puzzles, or like "internet points". And for basically any medical problem, there's a mix of people who want to help humanity and companies that think they could sell something "if it turned out to be true". That we don't even have "sham" studies from the oxygen bar people strongly implies that there is so little there there that they can't even make a "compelling to gullible people" study work out.

Note, I'm not rejecting your personal experience - I fully believe you feel better from doing it. I just think that it's far more likely a placebo effect or that you're the one in 300,000 person a la Timeshare Traveller. Look, even with well studied things like coffee being a stimulant and waking people up - some people it puts to sleep. Doesn't mean I'd go around touting coffee as a sleep aid!

 

[easyrider]

This is just a very bad and dangerous epistemological point of view in my opinion. It's basically conspiratorial thinking.

Interesting as your propositional statement seems, it definitely lacks many factors such as critical thinking, experience and good judgement and actually borders on bonkery, imo. I clearly provided the medical mechanism of action regarding oxygen therapy for a hangover and somehow you equate this to conspiratorial thinking and then use an odd analogy to make a paradoxical point is the explanation of my first sentence .

Many supplements have a medical mechanism of action with either a negative or positive connotation depending on the interpretation of the moa is my point. It is what it is.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

Says the person that's never tried it, lol.

Alcohol can constrict blood vessels and oxygen, in the case of a hangover, can relax and widen blood vessels through a process called vasodilation. Hyperventilating removes alcohol from most people at three to four times the liver recovery rate which can also help with a hangover.

A pier reviewed study has a very high price tag. No one is going to study something they aren't going to make money off of. Studies are paid for by the owners of the study which is another reason to think they are biased.

Bill

There you go again, Bill. Alcohol is a vasodilator not a constrictor. Vessels are constricted after heavy use (hangover phase.) You have it backwards as always. What any of that has to do with breathing in concentrated oxygen, no one knows.
No you did not provide "medical mechanism of action regarding oxygen therapy for a hangover." You provided poppycock.

While hyperventilation has been shown to increase alcohol removal from blood through respiration, hyperventilating also leads to a person passing out. Additionally, the removal of alcohol from the body after heaving drinking is what causes a hangover-- it does not help with a hangover, but just makes it happen faster. Also, oxygen bars don't make you hyperventilate, so this has nothing to do with breathing increased level of oxygen.

As to the "conspiracy theory" reference, your posts commonly follow the CT theme: find some random facts on the internet that you think are pertinent, often getting them backward. Though some are true they have nothing to do with proving the theory. Then make a bold (but gigantic leap in logic), conclusion that is not in any way supported by the facts cited. Of course, don't include cites to any verified expert sources or studies, but cry that the big pharmaceutical companies or other forces are stopping "the real evidence" (ie. a study here) from coming out.

Voila, the CT genre is executed as perfected over the past 4 or so years.

 

[easyrider]

There you go again, Bill. Alcohol is a vasodilator not a constrictor. Vessels are constricted after heavy use (hangover phase.) You have it backwards as always. What any of that has to do with breathing in concentrated oxygen, no one knows.
No you did not provide "medical mechanism of action regarding oxygen therapy for a hangover." You provided poppycock.

While hyperventilation has been shown to increase alcohol removal from blood through respiration, hyperventilating also leads to a person passing out. Additionally, the removal of alcohol from the body after heaving drinking is what causes a hangover-- it does not help with a hangover, but just makes it happen faster. Also, oxygen bars don't make you hyperventilate, so this has nothing to do with breathing increased level of oxygen.

As to the "conspiracy theory" reference, your posts commonly follow the CT theme: find some random facts on the internet that you think are pertinent, often getting them backward. Though some are true they have nothing to do with proving the theory. Then make a bold (but gigantic leap in logic), conclusion that is not in any way supported by the facts cited. Of course, don't include cites to any verified expert sources or studies, but cry that the big pharmaceutical companies or other forces are stopping "the real evidence" (ie. a study here) from coming out.

Voila, the CT genre is executed as perfected over the past 4 or so years.

Nope, you have it backwards Dave. Alcohol when consumed in a quantity to cause a hangover restricts blood flow which makes the alcohol a vasoconstricter. Oxygen when used to relieve a hangover is a vasodilator.

The mechanism of action I provided earlier is correct. What works even better than oxygen for a hangover is a nitric oxide supplement energy drink. What worked for me was exercise, breathing and plenty of water. Sometimes an aspirin too. I suppose you would like a citation of a moa so you can look it up yourself.

Also, please notice, I didn't disparage you in any way in my posts. For some reason you feel like labeling people as a conspiracy theorist which is true for everyone at some time or another in some degree. If you truly have a problem with what I post it would be a better and more productive conversation via pm.

Bill

Vascular actions​

The action of alcohol on the vasculature is variable according to its concentration and the kind of blood vessel.25, 26 High concentrations of alcohol constrict most blood vessels.

Vasodilation is the widening of blood vessels as a result of the relaxation of the blood vessel's muscular walls. Vasodilation is a mechanism to enhance blood flow to areas of the body that are lacking oxygen and/or nutrients. The vasodilation causes a decrease in systemic vascular resistance (SVR) and an increase in blood flow, resulting in a reduction of blood pressure.

 

[davidvel]

Nope, you have it backwards Dave. Alcohol when consumed in a quantity to cause a hangover restricts blood flow which makes the alcohol a vasoconstricter. Oxygen when used to relieve a hangover is a vasodilator.

The mechanism of action I provided earlier is correct. What works even better than oxygen for a hangover is a nitric oxide supplement energy drink. What worked for me was exercise, breathing and plenty of water. Sometimes an aspirin too. I suppose you would like a citation of a moa so you can look it up yourself.

Also, please notice, I didn't disparage you in any way in my posts. For some reason you feel like labeling people as a conspiracy theorist which is true for everyone at some time or another in some degree. If you truly have a problem with what I post it would be a better and more productive conversation via pm.

Bill

Vascular actions​

The action of alcohol on the vasculature is variable according to its concentration and the kind of blood vessel.25, 26 High concentrations of alcohol constrict most blood vessels.

Vasodilation is the widening of blood vessels as a result of the relaxation of the blood vessel's muscular walls. Vasodilation is a mechanism to enhance blood flow to areas of the body that are lacking oxygen and/or nutrients. The vasodilation causes a decrease in systemic vascular resistance (SVR) and an increase in blood flow, resulting in a reduction of blood pressure.

As the Nature article correctly states, alcohol acts as a vasodilator initially, then can have a constricting affect at higher concentrations. None of which has anything to do with whether oxygen "therapy" can alleviate symptoms of a hangover.

Now you have shifted to general discussion of energy drinks, water and aspirin without any scientific basis. Very indicative of CT commentary.

 

[easyrider]

As the Nature article correctly states, alcohol acts as a vasodilator initially, then can have a constricting affect at higher concentrations. None of which has anything to do with whether oxygen "therapy" can alleviate symptoms of a hangover.

Now you have shifted to general discussion of energy drinks, water and aspirin without any scientific basis. Very indicative of CT commentary.

Thank you for admitting I'm right in that alcohol in the amount it takes to achieve a hangover is a vasoconstricter which is why a person gets a throbbing in their head while hungover. Oxygen therapy is a vasodilator when the blood vessels are constricted due to alcohol meaning the oxygen widens the blood vessels and allows oxygen rich blood back into your brain.Your anecdotal tale of being ripped off by some oxygen supplement therapist had me smiling. It's possible you aren't breathing properly.

Maybe you should practice breathing. Most people don't breath in a healthy way. Here is a simple link to check your breathing skills. It's beginners breathing.

Bill

https://www.healthline.com/health/h...le position,stomach presses against your hand.

 

[jp10558]

Nope, you have it backwards Dave. Alcohol when consumed in a quantity to cause a hangover restricts blood flow which makes the alcohol a vasoconstricter. Oxygen when used to relieve a hangover is a vasodilator.

The mechanism of action I provided earlier is correct. What works even better than oxygen for a hangover is a nitric oxide supplement energy drink. What worked for me was exercise, breathing and plenty of water. Sometimes an aspirin too. I suppose you would like a citation of a moa so you can look it up yourself.

Also, please notice, I didn't disparage you in any way in my posts. For some reason you feel like labeling people as a conspiracy theorist which is true for everyone at some time or another in some degree. If you truly have a problem with what I post it would be a better and more productive conversation via pm.

Bill

Vascular actions​

The action of alcohol on the vasculature is variable according to its concentration and the kind of blood vessel.25, 26 High concentrations of alcohol constrict most blood vessels.

Vasodilation is the widening of blood vessels as a result of the relaxation of the blood vessel's muscular walls. Vasodilation is a mechanism to enhance blood flow to areas of the body that are lacking oxygen and/or nutrients. The vasodilation causes a decrease in systemic vascular resistance (SVR) and an increase in blood flow, resulting in a reduction of blood pressure.

You still seem to have this backwards. A quick search shows:
According to the available information, hangovers are primarily caused by vasodilation, or the widening of blood vessels, rather than vasoconstriction or blood vessel restriction.
The key points from the information provided are:

1. Alcohol intoxication results in vasodilation, which may induce headaches. 1
2. When alcohol is consumed, it causes the pituitary gland to block the creation of vasopressin, leading to vasodilation. 2
3. Alcohol consumption (intoxication) causes vasodilation, meaning expansion of the blood vessels. 3
4. Alcohol causes your blood vessels to dilate, or widen, in a process called vasodilation. 4
5. The ethanol in alcoholic beverages can cause headaches through vasodilation. 5

Therefore, the preponderance of evidence indicates that hangovers are primarily caused by the vasodilatory effects of alcohol, rather than vasoconstriction or blood vessel restriction. 12
References

1. Alcohol Hangover - PMC - NCBI www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
2. Biology of a Hangover: Vasopressin Inhibition - How Hangovers Work health.howstuffworks.com
3. Last Call – The Anatomy of a HangoverCare Blog - USF Health News hscweb3.hsc.usf.edu
4. Hangover: The Fastest Way to Cure It - WebMD www.webmd.com
5. Hangover headaches: Possible cures, causes, and when to seek help www.medicalnewstoday.com

So increasing vasodilation would seem to increase headaches by these sources. But the argument I made was not on the facts specifically, but the logic used - which you just bypass entirely.

Along that note - just having a proposed mechanism of action does not constitute proof of effect. I can probably look up someone on the internet that will propose a mechanism of action involving the 4 humors and bloodletting or something to cure hangovers, but this isn't actually evidence or even a compelling theory really. I see you don't like addressing logic failures in arguments, but they are important - please show how my previous example differs from your original set of posts? You can't so you just try and dismiss it as a "paradoxical point".

I think anyone reading all this will see you're blustering instead of actually admitting the arguments just don't work.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I thought that dehydration was a major component of hangovers?

 

[easyrider]

I thought that dehydration was a major component of hangovers?

It is but unless you have a citation proving this you would be considered something other than right, lol.

Bill

 

[clifffaith]

Jeez, I need a drink and it’s not even 8am!

 

[DrQ]

Jeez, I need a drink and it’s not even 8am!

You need to go to the "pier" for a review of refreshments.

 

[easyrider]

You still seem to have this backwards. A quick search shows:
According to the available information, hangovers are primarily caused by vasodilation, or the widening of blood vessels, rather than vasoconstriction or blood vessel restriction.
The key points from the information provided are:

1. Alcohol intoxication results in vasodilation, which may induce headaches. 1
2. When alcohol is consumed, it causes the pituitary gland to block the creation of vasopressin, leading to vasodilation. 2
3. Alcohol consumption (intoxication) causes vasodilation, meaning expansion of the blood vessels. 3
4. Alcohol causes your blood vessels to dilate, or widen, in a process called vasodilation. 4
5. The ethanol in alcoholic beverages can cause headaches through vasodilation. 5

Therefore, the preponderance of evidence indicates that hangovers are primarily caused by the vasodilatory effects of alcohol, rather than vasoconstriction or blood vessel restriction. 12
References

1. Alcohol Hangover - PMC - NCBI www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
2. Biology of a Hangover: Vasopressin Inhibition - How Hangovers Work health.howstuffworks.com
3. Last Call – The Anatomy of a HangoverCare Blog - USF Health News hscweb3.hsc.usf.edu
4. Hangover: The Fastest Way to Cure It - WebMD www.webmd.com
5. Hangover headaches: Possible cures, causes, and when to seek help www.medicalnewstoday.com

So increasing vasodilation would seem to increase headaches by these sources. But the argument I made was not on the facts specifically, but the logic used - which you just bypass entirely.

Along that note - just having a proposed mechanism of action does not constitute proof of effect. I can probably look up someone on the internet that will propose a mechanism of action involving the 4 humors and bloodletting or something to cure hangovers, but this isn't actually evidence or even a compelling theory really. I see you don't like addressing logic failures in arguments, but they are important - please show how my previous example differs from your original set of posts? You can't so you just try and dismiss it as a "paradoxical point".

I think anyone reading all this will see you're blustering instead of actually admitting the arguments just don't work.

The process begins with drinking which causes vasodilation that lowers blood pressure then goes into vasoconstriction which increases blood pressure regarding alcohol consumption in excess. The vasodilation appears when you are consuming alcohol. The vasoconstriction appears when you stop drinking and this causes the hangover. Oxygen therapy often results in vasodilation which for many people makes their hangover symptoms subside. Using your posted links, you can probably see this is the process if you actually read and understand the links.

Using a timeshare analogy to describe a physiological impairment is bonkers, imo. Then using true and false statements in the analogy creates the paradox in your analogy.

It could be true many that having an alcoholic beverage will relieve a hangover better than oxygen but this is frowned upon by employers and could lead into impaired actions such as drunk driving, walking into or off of something and possibly spouting off to the wrong persons.

Bill