- Joined
- Jun 6, 2005
- Messages
- 10,795
- Reaction score
- 2,527
- Location
- The Hamptons, NY
- Resorts Owned
- Marriott/Abound/Vistana, Morritt's Seaside, Former WSJx5 & Bluegreen
Many of these TUGers are still around - this was originally from 2005!
Pat
Help -
What did you tell us to do last year?
I know it makes the turkey nice and moist
I am using a frozen bird - does this make any difference?
------------------
Pat
No difference at all, unless you're using a kosher bird, which is already kashered. You can still use a weak brine solution with one, however, most find it redundant when using kosher poultry. Brining works well with almost any kind, any brand of poultry. It will make the most succulent roast chicken and Cornish hens you ever ate, so remember the procedure at other times of the year, as well.
Standard brine is 1 cup coarse kosher salt per gallon of water. This produces a medium brine. You should make notes for next holiday if you feel it would taste better with a little more or a little less salt. This is highly individual, so I'm giving you middle-of-the-road proportions.
Soak the bird for 6-8 hours in this solution. If you need to soak it longer (i.e. 6-8 hours would oblige you to get up in the middle of the night - which is for the birds - no pun intended!), then merely cut back the salt by 25% for a 12-14 hour soak.
Someone asked about the inclusion of brown sugar. Unless you like your meat to have a sweet taste (which personally makes me gag!), there is no need. Also, you will have to watch out for premature browning of the skin, as the sugar increases carmelization. The purpose of a brine is to 1) increase the fluid content in the tissues and 2) enhance the flavor of the meat by giving it an evenly seasoned taste. Sugar is unnecessary to the flavor of a properly brined bird. If you do like a touch of sweetness, recognize that it's not to everyone's taste and instead serve and orange or cherry sauce on the side for those who enjoy sweet flavors with their meat.
Use a V-rack to keep the bird up and out of the dripping so the flesh doesn't get incinerated. If you don't have one, you can approximate it by putting wadded-up pieces of tin foil down the center of your roasting pan. You just want to keep the flesh away from direct contact with the steaming hot juices. Start breast DOWN for the first 2 hours. Then turn each leg side up for 1/2 hour, then finally breast up and baste every 20 minutes.
Let the bird rest for 20-30 minutes before carving. The reason is to allow the juices to recirculate and retreat back into the meat tissues. If you cut it right away, you will see juices galore running out. Had you waited, those juices would be in the meat, instead of all over your counter.
This gives you time to do the stuffing and rolls in the oven, anyway. I do not recommend stuffing a bird 1) because it really doesn't contribute anything to the flavor that basting the stuffing cooked separately in a casserole with the juices will not do, 2) it increases the cooking time dramatically, which will often produce overcooked meat by the time the stuffing reaches the requisite 165 degrees (nothing quite so disappointing as vulcanized breast meat on your Thanksgiving piece de resistance!), and 3) significantly increases the risk of proliferation of foodborne pathogens.
Although I do not stuff, I do put a seasoned mirepoix (coarsely chopped mixture of onion, celery and carrot, tossed with sage and thyme - fresh if you can get it) in the cavity. It contributes a lovely flavor to the drippings, which in turn gives your gravy that certain je-ne-sais-quoi. Remove the vegtables when you take the bird out of the oven and either discard or add to the stock pot with the carcass at the end of the meal for fabulous soup.
Just bake the stuffing in a casserole in the oven. If you like it softer, cover for half the time (30 - 45 minutes total will be sufficient), and uncover for half. If you like it to develop a crispy outside, then bake uncovered.
Do not be stingy with the bleach on this holiday, or actually any other day. Keep it by the sink and spritz your water generously with it (several drops will be fine. The water shouldn't smell like bleach, and it shouldn't leave a white print on your jeans if you wipe your hands on them!!) We're talking 30 parts per million here! Wipe up counters with this solution liberally, and let it stay on a minimum of 30 seconds before rinsing.
I get so many requests for this information that it leads me to wonder if there might be some way to archive this for the future...How can we go about having this done?
------------------
--Cat
I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues at Cook's on two points. One, I do not ever rinse before cooking. If you have brined at the proper proportions, there is no need and no point to creating more mess. And two, I do not agree that sugar belongs in a brine solution, except when it is in preparation for smoking, as is done with bacon or hams. The slight, almost imperceptible sweetness offsets the smoked flavor nicely, creating a subtle, pleasing balance.
Consider also, when a meat is smoked, it never has contact with the high external temperatures involved in roasting. When roasting, the caramelization process can render the skin overly brown before the meat is cooked through.
------------------
--Cat
I agree with you Ed, that Cook's really does its homework. It is the best culinary magazine for technique available. However, I have never once had anyone who was not totally wowed by a turkey done in a basic brine (one that does not contain sugar), nor anyone who found it objectionably salty. I'm a stickler for not oversalting, as my palate is super sensitive, so if it works for me, you can be sure there is nothing unsavory about the flavor. If testers found it too salty, I submit that either too much salt was used in the brine, or the bird was left too long in the solution.
Very occasionally, Cook's and I do part ways on small items. I consider this one relatively minor in the scope of things. If they could show me why it is better to add sugar, I would do it. I did, however, show why it can too easily work to a disadvantage.
Generally I subscribe to the KISS school of culinary technique (Keep It Simple, Stupid.) Often, in matters culinary, less is truly more.
Therefore, I suggest trying the brine initially the basic way (coarse kosher salt and water), and if you feel it's lacking something, add sugar the next time. When making additions to your brine, I would suggest trying it out on something small, like a small chicken. Thanksgiving really isn't the time to experiment.
------------------
Cat
**Help!! Does rock salt work? If not where do I get the other stuff????? Also, thanks a million, I forgot to take my turkeys out until I read the title to this post. They are out now. I am smoking one in my littler smoker, and cooking on the old fashioned way. (I'm going to try this brine thing)
**Stupid question ....
I've noticed that on more & more packets of meat products, they say that it contains x% of *a solution* or water & some other products.
Does this mean that they have already done the brining?
Busymom, you can find coarse kosher salt in any grocery store. Look for the section that has kosher/Jewish foods - usually a specialty section. If not there, you will find it with the regular salt. I would not recommend using rock salt, as it's not intended as a food additive, so therefore the cleanliness would be, at least to my mind, suspect.
Marina, many turkeys do have a "solution" injected into them, usually a flavored broth. This is the packer's way of trying to keep turkeys moist when being frozen for long periods and to compensate for the fluid lost in the thawing process. It's not at all like brining, and will have no effect on your brining process. The tissues will uptake all that they possibly can, and it's a lot more than the dilute broth that has been injected. This imparts an evenly seasoned taste throughout, something that injecting a solution can't do.
The only ones that are pre-brined are the Empire Kosher turkeys (may be other kosher brands, as well - not familiar with any others distributed nationwide.) These have been kashered, a process by which salt is introduced into the meat tissues. That is why for several years running, Empire kosher turkeys have come out number one in Consumer Report taste tests.
So fear not if the label says there is an "injected solution." Almost every frozen turkey nowdays has this feature.
------------------
--Cat
**Cat - What are your thoughts about doing the brine soak in the evening then taking it out of the brine and putting it in the refrigerator overnight? Must be a way to avoid the early wake up call to give the bird a bath.
**I can answer that one because Cat already told me. If you let it sit in the refrigerator it will defeat the purpose of the brining. So, if you don't want to get up at 2 a.m. to start your soak, cut back on the salt by 1/4 and soak for longer.
Cat, if you do get to this thread again and can suggest a nice gravy mixture to make out of the drippings of a brined turkey, I would much appreciate it!!
Sharon
OMG, This is done OUTSIDE the refrigerator!!!!
So I am putting the bird in a garbage bag with salt water in the sink overnight?
PLMK, quick! I am sautéing the sausage for the dressing!!!Be Back!
------------------
Pat
Listen to Sharon - she knows whereof she speaks!
The proportions I gave are for a 6-8 hour soak. If you need to do a 12 hour one, just cut back by 25% on the salt.
As for gravy, I like to take the giblets (make sure to discard the liver, but everything else is fair game), the neck and the wing tips (cut them off before roasting) along with some mirepoix (see above) and a bay leaf, cover them with water and let them simmer gently while the turkey is in the oven.
When the turkey is done, strain the liquid (you can cut up the giblets and throw them back in, if that's your pleasure) and set aside.
For each cup of gravy, use 2 Tb drippings and 2Tb flour for a thinner gravy, 3 Tb for a thicker one, 4 for one that's like REALLY thick, all stirred together. Cook over medium for about 4-5 minutes. This is your roux. This step cooks off the raw flour flavor so that your gravy doesn't taste gummy.
Let it bubble, stirring, until it starts to color. I like it to become a nice chestnut color, but if it has just started to color, that's fine, too. Take it off the heat and whisk in your liquid gradually, a half cup at a time. The first addition is the critical one where you need to get it whisked in thoroughly so there are no lumps. The second one is a little easier, and each successive addition is easier still.
When it's all whisked in (you can add canned chicken broth if you want to make more gravy than you have liquid), bring it to a boil, stirring constantly. Let it simmer for at least 2 minutes. Taste for additions of salt and/or pepper.
And that's it. Velvety, lump-free gravy.
If you have a problem getting the liquid to whisk completely into the roux and you find lumps, all is not lost. Just strain the gravy at the end into the gravy boat. Throw the lumps in the strainer down the disposal and no one need be any the wiser.
If it's not thick enough for you, you have two options. One, you can just let it simmer long enough to evaporate some of the excess liquid, or you can make a smooth paste out of some flour and (cool - not hot) chicken broth or water and whisk it in vigorously. Be sure to simmer for at least 5 minutes to cook off the raw flour that you just introduced.
------------------
--Cat
IP
Pat, take a deep breath. Exhale slowly. Repeat after me: "This turkey is going to be great, this turkey is going to be great..."
What Sharon meant is if you take it out of the brine and just refrigerate it, it will leach out the liquid that the flesh has uptaken in the brining process.
It's perfectly great to put the bucket in which you're soaking your turkey in the fridge. Actually, it's so cold here that we're just going to leave it in the garage! It's like a huge walk-in. Good thing, since the fridge is overflowing and finding a spot for the brining bucket would be a real accomplishment!
"This turkey is going to be great..."
------------------
--Cat
Pat
Help -
What did you tell us to do last year?
I know it makes the turkey nice and moist
I am using a frozen bird - does this make any difference?
------------------
Pat
No difference at all, unless you're using a kosher bird, which is already kashered. You can still use a weak brine solution with one, however, most find it redundant when using kosher poultry. Brining works well with almost any kind, any brand of poultry. It will make the most succulent roast chicken and Cornish hens you ever ate, so remember the procedure at other times of the year, as well.
Standard brine is 1 cup coarse kosher salt per gallon of water. This produces a medium brine. You should make notes for next holiday if you feel it would taste better with a little more or a little less salt. This is highly individual, so I'm giving you middle-of-the-road proportions.
Soak the bird for 6-8 hours in this solution. If you need to soak it longer (i.e. 6-8 hours would oblige you to get up in the middle of the night - which is for the birds - no pun intended!), then merely cut back the salt by 25% for a 12-14 hour soak.
Someone asked about the inclusion of brown sugar. Unless you like your meat to have a sweet taste (which personally makes me gag!), there is no need. Also, you will have to watch out for premature browning of the skin, as the sugar increases carmelization. The purpose of a brine is to 1) increase the fluid content in the tissues and 2) enhance the flavor of the meat by giving it an evenly seasoned taste. Sugar is unnecessary to the flavor of a properly brined bird. If you do like a touch of sweetness, recognize that it's not to everyone's taste and instead serve and orange or cherry sauce on the side for those who enjoy sweet flavors with their meat.
Use a V-rack to keep the bird up and out of the dripping so the flesh doesn't get incinerated. If you don't have one, you can approximate it by putting wadded-up pieces of tin foil down the center of your roasting pan. You just want to keep the flesh away from direct contact with the steaming hot juices. Start breast DOWN for the first 2 hours. Then turn each leg side up for 1/2 hour, then finally breast up and baste every 20 minutes.
Let the bird rest for 20-30 minutes before carving. The reason is to allow the juices to recirculate and retreat back into the meat tissues. If you cut it right away, you will see juices galore running out. Had you waited, those juices would be in the meat, instead of all over your counter.
This gives you time to do the stuffing and rolls in the oven, anyway. I do not recommend stuffing a bird 1) because it really doesn't contribute anything to the flavor that basting the stuffing cooked separately in a casserole with the juices will not do, 2) it increases the cooking time dramatically, which will often produce overcooked meat by the time the stuffing reaches the requisite 165 degrees (nothing quite so disappointing as vulcanized breast meat on your Thanksgiving piece de resistance!), and 3) significantly increases the risk of proliferation of foodborne pathogens.
Although I do not stuff, I do put a seasoned mirepoix (coarsely chopped mixture of onion, celery and carrot, tossed with sage and thyme - fresh if you can get it) in the cavity. It contributes a lovely flavor to the drippings, which in turn gives your gravy that certain je-ne-sais-quoi. Remove the vegtables when you take the bird out of the oven and either discard or add to the stock pot with the carcass at the end of the meal for fabulous soup.
Just bake the stuffing in a casserole in the oven. If you like it softer, cover for half the time (30 - 45 minutes total will be sufficient), and uncover for half. If you like it to develop a crispy outside, then bake uncovered.
Do not be stingy with the bleach on this holiday, or actually any other day. Keep it by the sink and spritz your water generously with it (several drops will be fine. The water shouldn't smell like bleach, and it shouldn't leave a white print on your jeans if you wipe your hands on them!!) We're talking 30 parts per million here! Wipe up counters with this solution liberally, and let it stay on a minimum of 30 seconds before rinsing.
I get so many requests for this information that it leads me to wonder if there might be some way to archive this for the future...How can we go about having this done?
------------------
--Cat
I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues at Cook's on two points. One, I do not ever rinse before cooking. If you have brined at the proper proportions, there is no need and no point to creating more mess. And two, I do not agree that sugar belongs in a brine solution, except when it is in preparation for smoking, as is done with bacon or hams. The slight, almost imperceptible sweetness offsets the smoked flavor nicely, creating a subtle, pleasing balance.
Consider also, when a meat is smoked, it never has contact with the high external temperatures involved in roasting. When roasting, the caramelization process can render the skin overly brown before the meat is cooked through.
------------------
--Cat
I agree with you Ed, that Cook's really does its homework. It is the best culinary magazine for technique available. However, I have never once had anyone who was not totally wowed by a turkey done in a basic brine (one that does not contain sugar), nor anyone who found it objectionably salty. I'm a stickler for not oversalting, as my palate is super sensitive, so if it works for me, you can be sure there is nothing unsavory about the flavor. If testers found it too salty, I submit that either too much salt was used in the brine, or the bird was left too long in the solution.
Very occasionally, Cook's and I do part ways on small items. I consider this one relatively minor in the scope of things. If they could show me why it is better to add sugar, I would do it. I did, however, show why it can too easily work to a disadvantage.
Generally I subscribe to the KISS school of culinary technique (Keep It Simple, Stupid.) Often, in matters culinary, less is truly more.
Therefore, I suggest trying the brine initially the basic way (coarse kosher salt and water), and if you feel it's lacking something, add sugar the next time. When making additions to your brine, I would suggest trying it out on something small, like a small chicken. Thanksgiving really isn't the time to experiment.
------------------
Cat
**Help!! Does rock salt work? If not where do I get the other stuff????? Also, thanks a million, I forgot to take my turkeys out until I read the title to this post. They are out now. I am smoking one in my littler smoker, and cooking on the old fashioned way. (I'm going to try this brine thing)
**Stupid question ....
I've noticed that on more & more packets of meat products, they say that it contains x% of *a solution* or water & some other products.
Does this mean that they have already done the brining?
Busymom, you can find coarse kosher salt in any grocery store. Look for the section that has kosher/Jewish foods - usually a specialty section. If not there, you will find it with the regular salt. I would not recommend using rock salt, as it's not intended as a food additive, so therefore the cleanliness would be, at least to my mind, suspect.
Marina, many turkeys do have a "solution" injected into them, usually a flavored broth. This is the packer's way of trying to keep turkeys moist when being frozen for long periods and to compensate for the fluid lost in the thawing process. It's not at all like brining, and will have no effect on your brining process. The tissues will uptake all that they possibly can, and it's a lot more than the dilute broth that has been injected. This imparts an evenly seasoned taste throughout, something that injecting a solution can't do.
The only ones that are pre-brined are the Empire Kosher turkeys (may be other kosher brands, as well - not familiar with any others distributed nationwide.) These have been kashered, a process by which salt is introduced into the meat tissues. That is why for several years running, Empire kosher turkeys have come out number one in Consumer Report taste tests.
So fear not if the label says there is an "injected solution." Almost every frozen turkey nowdays has this feature.
------------------
--Cat
**Cat - What are your thoughts about doing the brine soak in the evening then taking it out of the brine and putting it in the refrigerator overnight? Must be a way to avoid the early wake up call to give the bird a bath.
**I can answer that one because Cat already told me. If you let it sit in the refrigerator it will defeat the purpose of the brining. So, if you don't want to get up at 2 a.m. to start your soak, cut back on the salt by 1/4 and soak for longer.
Cat, if you do get to this thread again and can suggest a nice gravy mixture to make out of the drippings of a brined turkey, I would much appreciate it!!
Sharon
OMG, This is done OUTSIDE the refrigerator!!!!
So I am putting the bird in a garbage bag with salt water in the sink overnight?
PLMK, quick! I am sautéing the sausage for the dressing!!!Be Back!
------------------
Pat
Listen to Sharon - she knows whereof she speaks!
The proportions I gave are for a 6-8 hour soak. If you need to do a 12 hour one, just cut back by 25% on the salt.
As for gravy, I like to take the giblets (make sure to discard the liver, but everything else is fair game), the neck and the wing tips (cut them off before roasting) along with some mirepoix (see above) and a bay leaf, cover them with water and let them simmer gently while the turkey is in the oven.
When the turkey is done, strain the liquid (you can cut up the giblets and throw them back in, if that's your pleasure) and set aside.
For each cup of gravy, use 2 Tb drippings and 2Tb flour for a thinner gravy, 3 Tb for a thicker one, 4 for one that's like REALLY thick, all stirred together. Cook over medium for about 4-5 minutes. This is your roux. This step cooks off the raw flour flavor so that your gravy doesn't taste gummy.
Let it bubble, stirring, until it starts to color. I like it to become a nice chestnut color, but if it has just started to color, that's fine, too. Take it off the heat and whisk in your liquid gradually, a half cup at a time. The first addition is the critical one where you need to get it whisked in thoroughly so there are no lumps. The second one is a little easier, and each successive addition is easier still.
When it's all whisked in (you can add canned chicken broth if you want to make more gravy than you have liquid), bring it to a boil, stirring constantly. Let it simmer for at least 2 minutes. Taste for additions of salt and/or pepper.
And that's it. Velvety, lump-free gravy.
If you have a problem getting the liquid to whisk completely into the roux and you find lumps, all is not lost. Just strain the gravy at the end into the gravy boat. Throw the lumps in the strainer down the disposal and no one need be any the wiser.
If it's not thick enough for you, you have two options. One, you can just let it simmer long enough to evaporate some of the excess liquid, or you can make a smooth paste out of some flour and (cool - not hot) chicken broth or water and whisk it in vigorously. Be sure to simmer for at least 5 minutes to cook off the raw flour that you just introduced.
------------------
--Cat
IP
Pat, take a deep breath. Exhale slowly. Repeat after me: "This turkey is going to be great, this turkey is going to be great..."
What Sharon meant is if you take it out of the brine and just refrigerate it, it will leach out the liquid that the flesh has uptaken in the brining process.
It's perfectly great to put the bucket in which you're soaking your turkey in the fridge. Actually, it's so cold here that we're just going to leave it in the garage! It's like a huge walk-in. Good thing, since the fridge is overflowing and finding a spot for the brining bucket would be a real accomplishment!
"This turkey is going to be great..."
------------------
--Cat
