The Medical Industrial Complex

[GregT]

This video reveals employees of Pfizer who are not aware that they are being recorded and they talk about how natural immunity, the culture at Pfizer and possible safety concerns about the Pfizer vaccine.

This is very different from what we are being asked to accept -- will we discount our eyes and ears because the comments were recorded by Project Veritas?

Why does this bother me so much? Because for months our public health officials have minimized the potential value of natural immunity in favor of vaccinations -- making me wonder what else those public health officials are minimizing in the march towards mass vaccination.

Are we allowed to Question Authority in public health? Would we have questioned a one child policy in the USA or simply complied?

From the video:

"We are bred and taught that the vaccine is better than actually getting COVID"
-- "We have to sit there for hours and hours"
-- "Logically if you have antibodies built up, you should be able to provide that you have these built up"

"I had COVID and I have monster immunities after 8 months, should I get vaccinated?"
-- "Wait"
-- "How So?"
-- "If your immunity starts to wane, then get vaccinated"
-- "So I'm protected?"
-- "Probably more protected than the vaccine"

"I still feel like I work for an evil corporation because it comes down to profit in the end and I'm there to help people"

"So right now, we're seeing an increase in the Delta variant, mostly not because of the variant, but because the antibodies are waning. They're still protected but not at the 95%, but more like 70%. So you're protected mostly likely for longer since you have a natural immune response"

"What happens to the monoclonal ability treatments?"
-- "Pushed to the side"
-- "Why?"
-- "Money"

"Myocarditis is a problem more so for younger people. We just sent 3,000 patient samples to get tested for elevated troponin levels to see if it is vaccine based. If data is not good, that might pull something from the market"

"Our company is now run by COVID money. Netted over $15B last year"

"We are told to not talk about anything that can implicate Big Pharma."

--------------------------------------------------------------

To someone who is vax hesitant (not anti-vax), these comments do create doubt about the true safety (?) and efficacy (4-6 months?) of the vaccines and suggest these products are not worthy of a mandatory vaccination initiative, and are better applied to patients that are higher-risk (or who simply wish to be vaccinated). People will say "but smallpox", however COVID lacks the smallpox mortality rate (30%) and the smallpox vaccine is sterilizing. This hesitancy is unusual for me because I've never really been a Question Authority person.

Feeding my doubt, I've lost two people in my sphere in the last 90 days to heart attacks (51-year old male, 48-year female). Was that myocarditis from the vaccine? No idea and heart attacks do happen, but these are the first two people in my sphere, at these ages, to get heart attacks. Here is a third death, definitely vaccine related but not a person in my sphere.

Please consider watching this starting at the 3:15 minute mark -- about a 5 minute listen from there -- these people work for the corporation with an apparent profit motive that is influencing our public policy. Eisenhowever warned us about a military industrial complex -- a professional armaments industry -- and I believe we are seeing the same in public health.

James O’Keefe strikes again… Pfizer scientist turns whistleblower…

New video from James O’Keefe just dropped in the last hour Complete story and details at Project Veritas… Pfizer scientist Nick Karl — “Your antibodies are bet…

citizenfreepress.com

Best,

Greg


PS -- in case anyone is still reading this (and hasn't blocked me yet), I will try to leave something positive from this ugly mess. I suspect half of you hate me now (which I truly regret) and the other half hopefully will see that I'm trying to do something good, as I have tried to do on TUG. But I love all of you and so, acknowledging that I'm just a CPA and not a doctor, and that I have no medical training, the following is what I have cobbled together to try to build the best possible immune system, which probably would benefit both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. I am hoping that a daily dosage of Quercetin, Zinc Picolinate, high-dose Vitamin D (10,000 iu) and high-dose Vitamin C will aid my immune system when I contract COVID. I believe age, obesity, diabetes and low Vitamin-D are the most prevalent risk factors for severe COVID. I still don't know why I didn't get COVID when my wife had it, as I definitely didn't quarantine from her (neither one of us knew she had it until she was positive for antibodies). I also monitor my diet and BMI closely and I'm active and in pretty good shape. I welcome the feedback of knowledgeable TUGgers on this approach as we all have a collective interest in our immune systems.

However, people like me still die if infected from COVID (about 1 in 200 at my age), so I remain open to vaccination and am hoping for the Novavax to get approved as I like it the best, with JNJ as my next best option. I want to thank the nurses that have corresponded with me via PM about this situation, as they have been very instructive and helpful. And yes, I've purchased a supply of pharmaceutical grade (not veterinary) Ivermectin even knowing that the main stream media has taken a hatchet to its reputation, which probably means that it works. PM me if you want to know how to buy Ivermectin as an insurance policy and then we both hope you never need it. Please consider this also if you are vaccinated because who knows what the winter will bring as antibodies wane, and break-through cases continue to happen. Ivermectin, at the proper pharmaceutical dose, has been safe for decades and the Indians say it is a wonder drug, but the Brazilians hate it.

Some will blast me as selfish and ignorant, and perhaps I am ignorant because I can't tell what the truth is in 2021, but I take some solace that I'm not afraid to admit it. Fear is running rampant through society these days, being stoked by the media and the government. I certainly was stupid when I believed the WMD story in 2003 and when I believed that we could leave Afghanistan without helicopters on embassies. I hope I am wrong about this one and that 2021 is free of noble lies in the public health arena.

God Bless the USA, we will get through this.

 

[Brett]

This video reveals employees of Pfizer who are not aware that they are being recorded and they talk about how natural immunity, the culture at Pfizer and possible safety concerns about the Pfizer vaccine.

This is very different from what we are being asked to accept -- will we discount our eyes and ears because the comments were recorded by Project Veritas?

Why does this bother me so much? Because for months our public health officials have minimized the potential value of natural immunity in favor of vaccinations -- making me wonder what else those public health officials are minimizing in the march towards mass vaccination.

Are we allowed to Question Authority in public health? Would we have questioned a one child policy in the USA or simply complied?

From the video:

"We are bred and taught that the vaccine is better than actually getting COVID"
-- "We have to sit there for hours and hours"
-- "Logically if you have antibodies built up, you should be able to provide that you have these built up"

"I had COVID and I have monster immunities after 8 months, should I get vaccinated?"
-- "Wait"
-- "How So?"
-- "If your immunity starts to wane, then get vaccinated"
-- "So I'm protected?"
-- "Probably more protected than the vaccine"

"I still feel like I work for an evil corporation because it comes down to profit in the end and I'm there to help people"

"So right now, we're seeing an increase in the Delta variant, mostly not because of the variant, but because the antibodies are waning. They're still protected but not at the 95%, but more like 70%. So you're protected mostly likely for longer since you have a natural immune response"

"What happens to the monoclonal ability treatments?"
-- "Pushed to the side"
-- "Why?"
-- "Money"

"Myocarditis is a problem more so for younger people. We just sent 3,000 patient samples to get tested for elevated troponin levels to see if it is vaccine based. If data is not good, that might pull something from the market"

"Our company is now run by COVID money. Netted over $15B last year"

"We are told to not talk about anything that can implicate Big Pharma."

--------------------------------------------------------------

To someone who is vax hesitant (not anti-vax), these comments do create doubt about the true safety (?) and efficacy (4-6 months?) of the vaccines and suggest these products are not worthy of a mandatory vaccination initiative, and are better applied to patients that are higher-risk (or who simply wish to be vaccinated). People will say "but smallpox", however COVID lacks the smallpox mortality rate (30%) and the smallpox vaccine is sterilizing. This hesitancy is unusual for me because I've never really been a Question Authority person.

Feeding my doubt, I've lost two people in my sphere in the last 90 days to heart attacks (51-year old male, 48-year female). Was that myocarditis from the vaccine? No idea and heart attacks do happen, but these are the first two people in my sphere, at these ages, to get heart attacks. Here is a third death, definitely vaccine related but not a person in my sphere.

Please consider watching this starting at the 3:15 minute mark -- about a 5 minute listen from there -- these people work for the corporation with an apparent profit motive that is influencing our public policy. Eisenhowever warned us about a military industrial complex -- a professional armaments industry -- and I believe we are seeing the same in public health.


Best,

Greg


PS -- in case anyone is still reading this (and hasn't blocked me yet), I will try to leave something positive from this ugly mess. I suspect half of you hate me now (which I truly regret) and the other half hopefully will see that I'm trying to do something good, as I have tried to do on TUG. But I love all of you and so, acknowledging that I'm just a CPA and not a doctor, and that I have no medical training, the following is what I have cobbled together to try to build the best possible immune system, which probably would benefit both vaccinated and unvaccinated people. I am hoping that a daily dosage of Quercetin, Zinc Picolinate, high-dose Vitamin D (10,000 iu) and high-dose Vitamin C will aid my immune system when I contract COVID. I believe age, obesity, diabetes and low Vitamin-D are the most prevalent risk factors for severe COVID. I still don't know why I didn't get COVID when my wife had it, as I definitely didn't quarantine from her (neither one of us knew she had it until she was positive for antibodies). I also monitor my diet and BMI closely and I'm active and in pretty good shape. I welcome the feedback of knowledgeable TUGgers on this approach as we all have a collective interest in our immune systems.

However, people like me still die from COVID (about 1 in 200 at my age), so I remain open to vaccination and am hoping for the Novavax to get approved as I like it the best, with JNJ as my next best option. I want to thank the nurses that have corresponded with me via PM about this situation, as they have been very instructive and helpful. And yes, I've purchased a supply of pharmaceutical grade (not veterinary) Ivermectin even knowing that the main stream media has taken a hatchet to its reputation, which probably means that it works. PM me if you want to know how to buy Ivermectin as an insurance policy and then we both hope you never need it. Please consider this also if you are vaccinated because who knows what the winter will bring as antibodies wane, and break-through cases continue to happen. Ivermectin, at the proper pharmaceutical dose, has been safe for decades and the Indians say it is a wonder drug, but the Brazilians hate it.
Some will blast me as selfish and ignorant, and perhaps I am ignorant because I can't tell what the truth is in 2021, but I take some solace that I'm not afraid to admit it. Fear is running rampant through society these days, being stoked by the media and the government. I certainly was stupid when I believed the WMD story in 2003 and when I believed that we could leave Afghanistan without helicopters on embassies. I hope I am wrong about this one and that 2021 is free of noble lies in the public health arena.

God Bless the USA, we will get through this.

"Ivermectin even knowing that the main stream media has taken a hatchet to its reputation"

"we could leave Afghanistan without helicopters on embassies"

"Ivermectin, at the proper pharmaceutical dose, has been safe for decades and the Indians say it is a wonder drug, but the Brazilians hate it."

"perhaps I am ignorant because I can't tell what the truth is in 2021, but I take some solace that I'm not afraid to admit it. Fear is running rampant through society these days, being stoked by the media and the government."

wow

get the vaccination

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Mahalo, Greg, and thanks for all the travel knowledge you have passed along to people like me for years. I respect your work and your viewpoint. And I have been asked this question of how to figure out what the truth is in 2021. All I can say is: Look at the underlying science. It's messy but then it's always been that way. Try and draw a consistent picture from the data, and accept that, not what everybody tells you. In this day and age, fewer and fewer people even understand how to do science.

This may be a "tinfoil" opinions to most, but don't be afraid of that. Most accepted science today started out being consider "tinfoil" ideas.

P.S. Have you been following the MEDCRAM COVID series on youtube? By another pulmonary ICU doctor. It's been a lot of help through the pandemic.

 

[Brett]

Mahalo, Greg, and thanks for all the travel knowledge you have passed along to people like me for years. I respect your work and your viewpoint. And I have been asked this question of how to figure out what the truth is in 2021. All I can say is: Look at the underlying science. It's messy but then it's always been that way. Try and draw a consistent picture from the data, and accept that, not what everybody tells you. In this day and age, fewer and fewer people even understand how to do science.

This may be a "tinfoil" opinions to most, but don't be afraid of that. Most accepted science today started out being consider "tinfoil" ideas.

P.S. Have you been following the MEDCRAM COVID series on youtube? By another pulmonary ICU doctor. It's been a lot of help through the pandemic.

yeah, it's a tin foil hat "opinion"

 

[MrockStar]

Thank you GregT, you are a defender of truth. I salute you. Get ready for the flaming arrows coming your way. Hope this post stays up for all discerning tug members to see and verify for themselves. Bravo Zulu.

 

[MrockStar]

yeah, it's a tin foil hat "opinion"

Bret, I love your sign I need to get one made for my garage. AL.

View attachment 40654

 

[Brett]

Thank you GregT, you are a defender of truth. I salute you. Get ready for the flaming arrows coming your way. Hope this post stays up for all discerning tug members to see and verify for themselves. Bravo Zulu.

LOL



extreme right wing warning -- "ivermectin" ... "natural immunity" !

(throw in a little Afghanistan )

 

[emeryjre]

Please do not bring in Afghanistan. Has nothing to do with Covid-19, Vaccines, Ivermectin. Not like I don't have strong opinions in the issue, but this is not the venue.

The original story of the Pfizer scientist came from Project Veritas. Is the scientist a real employee of Pfizer, not sure. But the whole story follows the line that Project Veritas has been promoting.

Project Veritas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The site does not have a reputation for veracity.

 

[SueDonJ]

"Oh God, I signed NDA's against this."

Are we supposed to believe that these people are smart after we clearly see them violating their NDA's in a secret recording? And that Project Veritas isn't an agenda-driven group that's already proven it will stop at nothing to further their agenda?

There are legal mechanisms for employees to protect themselves while releasing protected information to the proper authorities for the greater good. This isn't legitimate whisteblowing; it's reality TV dumbed down.

Find better sources.

 

[mjm1]

Greg, thanks for sharing your perspective and raising questions. We are following a similar protocol to try to stay as healthy as possible. We have also obtained Ivermectin from a doctor and will use it if we contract the virus. As you noted, it has been used for years and many reputable doctors are having patients use it.

I am currently reading a book entitled "Plague of Corruption" by Dr. Judy Mikovits and Kent Heckenlively, JD. Very interesting read about her experiences as a researcher. She is not in favor of the current Covid "vaccines," although I don't know if she addresses that particular matter in this book (I am not done yet.) But, she definitely discusses the corruption that surrounded prior vaccines.

Stay strong my friend and continue to observe. If at some point a better solution (perhaps Novavax) is available, we too may use it.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[easyrider]

Over half of the FDA's funding comes from drug makers since about the the time of HIV. I'm not suggesting drug makers are doing anything illegal but they are in it for the money like any business.

I agree with Greg on much of this because it is within the realm of probability that it is true.

[deleted]

Bill

 

[heathpack]

@GregT, I would never block you over something like this. If I did, who would I direct all my Destination Club Points questions to?

Seriously, when I see posts like yours I’m frequently confused. I take COVID seriously and I don’t want to get it, but I would not say I feel ”fear” about it. I frequently hear my conservative friends saying that the media is “scaring” people. Well it is scary to die alone on a ventilator. It’s also scary to be hit by a train. I do prudent things to avoid being hit by a train, like not walking along the tracks, not driving around crossing gates. But I’m not living in fear of trains.

When I decided to breed my dog this year, I joined a few Canine Repro Facebook groups. It’s eye opening sometimes to read posts and realize the extent to which most lay people don’t have a good understanding of medical concepts. Makes sense because that’s not where their training and education lies. Yet so many seem to think they can diagnose problems, make treatment reccs, bash veterinarians. They don’t understand what they’re attempting to analyze. Should they attempt to understand it? Yes. But is FB a good venue for coming to that place of understanding? No way. Same for all social media, which is inherently irresponsible.

Here’s what 25 years of veterinary medicine has taught me- EVERY medical treatment has its pros and cons. NO VACCINE OR MEDICATION is without risk of adverse reactions. I know someone personally who got polyradiculoneuritis as a complication of rabies vaccination, and was on a ventilator for 6 months (she still strongly advocates veterinarians being vaccinated against rabies). I don’t routinely give my dogs flea and tick preventative because Ive been involved with a few cases of retinal damage leading to blindness in dogs, and we don’t have enough fleas and ticks in SoCal for me to take that tiny risk. I understand the protection from some vaccines is short lived and theyre still “good” vaccines. I treat dogs everyday for immune mediated diseases that we suspect are the result of vaccination. Yet I know all that and guess what my response was to the opportunity to get vaccinated? I thought it was a miracle and that I was immensely lucky for the opportunity. Rolled up my sleeve they very first chance I got.

Also- you are concerned about media bias but where did you get your info leading you to your vaccine hesitancy? From the media. Yes there is media bias. When I was in middle school in the 1970s, we were taught about media bias and how to consume news media. It has been my expectation my entire adult life that media biases exist, just like human biases exist when I’m conversing with someone. I don’t doubt everything every human says as a result, I just consider the source. Is my gardener giving me accounting advice? I probably won’t take it. But I would from Greg T.

Id encourage you to consider the sources that have led you to hesitate in regards to getting vaccinated. What sources planted that seed in your mind? Do you consider those sources completely unbiased, or might there be an agenda? Might those sources of information have something to gain by sowing distrust of the medical field, or creating anger or resentment in a segment of society?

Food for thought.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

The latest on NOVAVAX.

Different dose regimens of a SARS-CoV-2 recombinant spike protein vaccine (NVX-CoV2373) in younger and older adults: A phase 2 randomized placebo-controlled trial

In a phase 2 randomized placebo-controlled trial, Neil Formica and coauthors investigate the immunogenicity and safety of different dose regimens of a SARS-CoV-2 recombinant spike protein vaccine in younger and older adults in USA and Australia.

journals.plos.org

 

[joestein]

Kudos to you Greg.

I feel that our gov't and media report based upon an agenda, rather than facts. They easily spin or omit stories to fit their agenda. Vaccines and other COVID related matter discussions are often based upon an agenda rather than facts.

I guess this goes hand in hand with our society today. Many people want to rely on gov't handouts and forget personal responsibility. They want to be spoon fed their information and not rely on personal responsibility/analysis to figure it out.

I always like to refer back to "The Wizards First Rule", it is just so true:

"Wizard's First Rule: People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

 

[GregT]

Also- you are concerned about media bias but where did you get your info leading you to your vaccine hesitancy? From the media. Yes there is media bias. When I was in middle school in the 1970s, we were taught about media bias and how to consume news media. It has been my expectation my entire adult life that media biases exist, just like human biases exist when I’m conversing with someone. I don’t doubt everything every human says as a result, I just consider the source.

Id encourage you to consider the sources that have led you to hesitate in regards to getting vaccinated. What sources planted that seed in your mind? Do you consider those sources completely unbiased, or might there be an agenda? Might those sources of information have something to gain by sowing distrust of the medical field, or creating anger or resentment in a segment of society?

Hello @heathpack,

As before, thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments -- truly. I shortened the Quote above, not to selectively edit, but to try to be as responsive to your point. My thread above is probably confusing because I am confused, and I will attempt to recreate how I got here, if you will indulge me.

I have yet to find an agenda-free media source, either on TV or in print. I don't trust CNN and I don't trust Fox. I think they are motivated by ratings, which in my opinion, are driven by fear and anger and which is why your conservative friends think CNN is scaring people. So is Fox, presenting selective information to enrage their viewers. So I have been reading every scientific journal I could find, to try to figure out the risk, first from COVID and then from the vaccine.

So here we go, this is how I got to my current state of confusion (apologies in advance):

In March 2020, a model predicted 2.2M deaths in the U.S. by mid-October 2020, published by a respected Oxford team. This became the impetus for our lockdown policy.

However, two weeks later, a pre-print of a paper published by a (then) respected Stanford statistician suggested that the Oxford team used a fatality rate that was much too high, and that the real fatality rate was closer to 0.27%. In the May 2020 peer-reviewed paper here, it was revised to 0.23%, and subsequent publications also confirm the high risk categories of age, obesity, and diabetes.

First philosophical question: How would the last 18 months have been different if the IFR assumption had been corrected in March 2020 and instead our public health policy had been to rigorously protect those that are at risk?

Georgia opened up in May 2020 and we got headlines "Georgia experiments in human sacrifice." Florida opened around the same time and was crucified in the press for it. And yet I believe both were following real data, and yet our leaders are stating "follow the science", which I still can't reconcile.

The next anomaly was when two physicians held their own press conference in Sept 2020. These guys had built up a business of urgent care clinics and their business had been decimated by lockdowns (they clearly have an agenda). They held a press conference and discussed their views that cloth masks are useless, that COVID was of greatest risk to elderly and with comorbidities and that people needed to learn to live with COVID and focus on protecting those at risk. I was fascinated as this was one of the earlier times I had seen this view in a public setting. Within 72 hours, the video had been taken down from YouTube as misinformation. I found the censorship to be troubling.

In October 2020, with the publication of the Great Barrington Declaration, I began to appreciate how truly divided the medical community was and how difficult it is to dissent from the public narrative. The primary authors are Harvard, Oxford and Stanford university professionals and currently 86,000 people have signed it. It is interesting to read this one-year later and ask what would have happened if this had been considered when finalizing US policy.

One of the current censorships revolves around early treatment alternatives for COVID, and there is another declaration by physicians who believe they are being restrained in their medical practice. It is impossible to know whether any of the early treatments are truly effective in treating COVID, but doctors do report early treatment success. I hadn't really realized how doctors study the mechanisms of action for a medicine and will try (with the patients consent) to use a treatment off-label to try and help the patient.

Finally, there appears to be disagreement within the medical community itself on the wisdom of mandatory vaccinations. This Op-Ed from a Johns Hopkins doctor who is pro-vax discusses the reasons why we don't have enough data yet to vax everybody. Conversely, this Op-Ed from a GW doctor believes we should vaccinate everybody because there are some who are not able to vaccinate because they are very young or are immuno-compromised -- so clearly there is disagreement "by the experts".

So synthesizing all of this, in my view, mandatory vaccination amounts to asking everybody to sign up for a shot that provides 6 months of antibody protection, which will then necessitate boosters if the goal is to have constantly circulating antibodies.

And I believe there are side effects of unknown frequency and severity that it is difficult to find real world data on. It really bothers me that people die after taking the vaccine and that there is total silence on this in the media, even total silence in the scientific journals that I monitor. There is plenty on waning efficacy, but nothing on side effects.

But I know there are side effects that don't get investigated to see if they are COVID related, but they all happened right after the shot death death death death death and then I have the two that are in my sphere.

Thus my current state of confusion. I am happy that my Dad (age 86) is vaccinated and thrilled that my brother (heart disease) is vaccinated. I am deeply distressed that two of my three children are vaccinated not because they felt like they were at risk but because it was required by their schools. They both love their schools and the school used that leverage to coerce them to get vaccinated. Maybe this is my agenda, thinking as I type this.

And this is the current progression -- we will all have to be vaccinated to participate in society -- some even suggested as much in the other thread I started on the basketball player. And the real concern is that the public health institutions really do understand the alternative viewpoints, but are choosing to disregard/suppress/censor the alternative viewpoint because they are convinced they are right.

So are the FDA and CDC making our public health decisions, or is it Big Pharma?

And is there any true investigative journalism going on or are they just repeating what they are told? SueDonJ, you are right, Project Veritas is a two bit operation, but I don't see any traditional outlet that is willing to investigate the narrative.

I believe the last 18 months suggest that the alternative viewpoints have been correct all along:
- Lockdowns lead to other issues
- Natural immunity is a real thing (and is durable)
- These vaccines are leaky (allowing breakthrough infections)
- We don't know the long term safety profile of repeated dosing (we are running this clinical trial real time)
- Medicine is not one-size-fits-all (ie, two-dose vaccination) and other therapies might provide benefit
- There are risk factors (age, obesity, diabetic, low Vitamin D) for severe COVID and we should factor that into our public health posture

Strange days and I thank you again for your thoughtful response. And I apologize for the lengthy rant -- frustrating stuff...

Best,

Greg

 

[Old Hickory]

I believe the last 18 months suggest that the alternative viewpoints have been correct all along:
- Lockdowns lead to other issues
- Natural immunity is a real thing (and is durable)
- These vaccines are leaky (allowing breakthrough infections)
- We don't know the long term safety profile of repeated dosing (we are running this clinical trial real time)
- Medicine is not one-size-fits-all (ie, two-dose vaccination) and other therapies might provide benefit
- There are risk factors (age, obesity, diabetic, low Vitamin D) for severe COVID and we should factor that into our public health posture

BRAVO! But I don't believe these to be alternative viewpoints because they have 100+ years of human medicine and science behind them.

 

[Old Hickory]

When you consider Operation Warpspeed took less than a year to develop a vaccine... and nothing else has been approved by the WHO, CDC, FDA since? Makes (some) people think.

 

[VacationForever]

I will throw in my 2 cents. Since FDA, CDC, media and politicians are all confusing the public, we simply have to decide for ourselves whether to get vaccinated or not. I don't agree with the media's push against vaccination and neither do I agree with the vaccine mandate.

I knew people within my social circle who died from COVID, some vaccinated and many not. My husband and I were both fully vaccinated when he caught COVID at a dinner event. He is in his 70s, has pre-existing condition and symptoms were of a mild cold and was well in a week. The one guy who died was unvaccinated, had no known pre-existing conditions and died at the age of 47, with pneumonia and heart attack from COVID infection.

I did not catch COVID despite sharing food while he was symptomatic and I was tested negative multiple times. I take my chances with getting vaccinated because I believe it gives me the best outcome when exposed to COVID. I just had my booster shot yesterday.

 

[MrockStar]

Thanks again GregT well said.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Hello @heathpack,

As before, thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments -- truly. I shortened the Quote above, not to selectively edit, but to try to be as responsive to your point. My thread above is probably confusing because I am confused, and I will attempt to recreate how I got here, if you will indulge me.

I have yet to find an agenda-free media source, either on TV or in print. I don't trust CNN and I don't trust Fox. I think they are motivated by ratings, which in my opinion, are driven by fear and anger and which is why your conservative friends think CNN is scaring people. So is Fox, presenting selective information to enrage their viewers. So I have been reading every scientific journal I could find, to try to figure out the risk, first from COVID and then from the vaccine.

So here we go, this is how I got to my current state of confusion (apologies in advance):

In March 2020, a model predicted 2.2M deaths in the U.S. by mid-October 2020, published by a respected Oxford team. This became the impetus for our lockdown policy.

However, two weeks later, a pre-print of a paper published by a (then) respected Stanford statistician suggested that the Oxford team used a fatality rate that was much too high, and that the real fatality rate was closer to 0.27%. In the May 2020 peer-reviewed paper here, it was revised to 0.23%, and subsequent publications also confirm the high risk categories of age, obesity, and diabetes.

First philosophical question: How would the last 18 months have been different if the IFR assumption had been corrected in March 2020 and instead our public health policy had been to rigorously protect those that are at risk?

Georgia opened up in May 2020 and we got headlines "Georgia experiments in human sacrifice." Florida opened around the same time and was crucified in the press for it. And yet I believe both were following real data, and yet our leaders are stating "follow the science", which I still can't reconcile.

The next anomaly was when two physicians held their own press conference in Sept 2020. These guys had built up a business of urgent care clinics and their business had been decimated by lockdowns (they clearly have an agenda). They held a press conference and discussed their views that cloth masks are useless, that COVID was of greatest risk to elderly and with comorbidities and that people needed to learn to live with COVID and focus on protecting those at risk. I was fascinated as this was one of the earlier times I had seen this view in a public setting. Within 72 hours, the video had been taken down from YouTube as misinformation. I found the censorship to be troubling.

In October 2020, with the publication of the Great Barrington Declaration, I began to appreciate how truly divided the medical community was and how difficult it is to dissent from the public narrative. The primary authors are Harvard, Oxford and Stanford university professionals and currently 86,000 people have signed it. It is interesting to read this one-year later and ask what would have happened if this had been considered when finalizing US policy.

One of the current censorships revolves around early treatment alternatives for COVID, and there is another declaration by physicians who believe they are being restrained in their medical practice. It is impossible to know whether any of the early treatments are truly effective in treating COVID, but doctors do report early treatment success. I hadn't really realized how doctors study the mechanisms of action for a medicine and will try (with the patients consent) to use a treatment off-label to try and help the patient.

Finally, there appears to be disagreement within the medical community itself on the wisdom of mandatory vaccinations. This Op-Ed from a Johns Hopkins doctor who is pro-vax discusses the reasons why we don't have enough data yet to vax everybody. Conversely, this Op-Ed from a GW doctor believes we should vaccinate everybody because there are some who are not able to vaccinate because they are very young or are immuno-compromised -- so clearly there is disagreement "by the experts".

So synthesizing all of this, in my view, mandatory vaccination amounts to asking everybody to sign up for a shot that provides 6 months of antibody protection, which will then necessitate boosters if the goal is to have constantly circulating antibodies.

And I believe there are side effects of unknown frequency and severity that it is difficult to find real world data on. It really bothers me that people die after taking the vaccine and that there is total silence on this in the media, even total silence in the scientific journals that I monitor. There is plenty on waning efficacy, but nothing on side effects.

But I know there are side effects that don't get investigated to see if they are COVID related, but they all happened right after the shot death death death death death and then I have the two that are in my sphere.

Thus my current state of confusion. I am happy that my Dad (age 86) is vaccinated and thrilled that my brother (heart disease) is vaccinated. I am deeply distressed that two of my three children are vaccinated not because they felt like they were at risk but because it was required by their schools. They both love their schools and the school used that leverage to coerce them to get vaccinated. Maybe this is my agenda, thinking as I type this.

And this is the current progression -- we will all have to be vaccinated to participate in society -- some even suggested as much in the other thread I started on the basketball player. And the real concern is that the public health institutions really do understand the alternative viewpoints, but are choosing to disregard/suppress/censor the alternative viewpoint because they are convinced they are right.

So are the FDA and CDC making our public health decisions, or is it Big Pharma?

And is there any true investigative journalism going on or are they just repeating what they are told? SueDonJ, you are right, Project Veritas is a two bit operation, but I don't see any traditional outlet that is willing to investigate the narrative.

I believe the last 18 months suggest that the alternative viewpoints have been correct all along:
- Lockdowns lead to other issues
- Natural immunity is a real thing (and is durable)
- These vaccines are leaky (allowing breakthrough infections)
- We don't know the long term safety profile of repeated dosing (we are running this clinical trial real time)
- Medicine is not one-size-fits-all (ie, two-dose vaccination) and other therapies might provide benefit
- There are risk factors (age, obesity, diabetic, low Vitamin D) for severe COVID and we should factor that into our public health posture

Strange days and I thank you again for your thoughtful response. And I apologize for the lengthy rant -- frustrating stuff...

Best,

Greg

Greg, I will note one thing:

If nobody funds the research, there won't be any. It may not directly be "disregard/suppress/censor" . It may just be "no funds / no research / no dissenting results".

Also look at the research done in the "3rd world", not part of the "publish or perish" 1st world research universe. I've noticed that the only "renegade" 1st world research in from a . . .ahem. . . "renegade" country; i.e. Israel. (And Israel is in stage 3 trials for it's own <live virus> vaccine.) Most of the true "cutting edge" research was done in the 3rd world, because they had nothing else they could do, but to try to see if there was anything existing available to fight COVID with. All of which was sneered at in the 1st world, as if the only people in the world with a brain are in the 1st world. I beg to differ. . .

 

[MrockStar]

Go Israel go.

 

[JIMinNC]

Hello @heathpack,

I believe the last 18 months suggest that the alternative viewpoints have been correct all along:
- Lockdowns lead to other issues
- Natural immunity is a real thing (and is durable)
- These vaccines are leaky (allowing breakthrough infections)

While I am 100% in favor of the Covid vaccines, am fully vaccinated, and will get the booster whenever Moderna boosters are approved, I do agree with some of your bullets above.

• I believe the initial lockdowns in March 2020 were necessary at first to buy time, allow us to ramp up PPE production, and learn how to deal with the new virus, etc, but I've never seen lockdowns as a smart long term strategy. The long term economic and societal damage is greater than the long term benefits that can realistically be achieved. Lockdowns help you contain a virus that is just beginning to spread, and if you can use lockdowns to contain it and wipe it out early, that is the best strategy. But our woeful lack of testing in those early months meant the virus spread undetected globally well beyond the point of containment before the lockdowns could have the desired effect. After the virus was loose, all lockdowns did was slow the inevitable. Reasonable public health measures like indoor masking, indoor distancing, etc. are still appropriate measures than can help slow spread during surge outbreaks to protect hospital capacity, but we are well past the stage where true lockdowns have any real value. When you lock down, yes, virus spread slows, but unless the virus is eradicated (which it can't be now), as soon as things open back up, the virus still has a lot of vulnerable human kindling to burn through. In my non-expert opinion, that is why Hawaii had such a serious surge in July/August even though they have one of the highest vaccination rates in the country - their isolation, coupled with the strict and persistent lockdowns, resulted in a very low rate of natural infections of the local citizens, meaning that the vaccines had to carry a lot more of the weight in creating immunity/antibodies in their population compared to places that have both higher natural immunity and high vaccinations. So, as activity and tourism increased this summer, and as restrictions were lifted and the locals let down their guard, the virus had that fresh kindling to burn.
• While natural immunity MAY provide more durable protection than vaccines (the data is mixed on this, too), the death toll to reach the point where virtually everyone has been exposed naturally to the virus would have been horrific. Clearly, 700,000 and still rising (just in the US) is bad enough, but if the strategy was for everyone to get infected, the toll would be many times more if we were to have 330 million or so infections. My personal belief is vaccination, coupled with increasing natural immunity, is ultimately how the pandemic ends.
• Vaccines aren't perfect, obviously, but breakthrough infections among the vaccinated wind up in the hospital or the grave at a much lower rate than the unvaccinated. So, while I'm vaccinated, my assumption is at some point, I'll probably still be exposed and maybe get Covid. That might be next week, next month, next year, or several years from now. But since I'm vaccinated, I will hopefully have a good chance that Covid will just be a cold or maybe at worst like a bad case of the flu. So, that's what I think vaccines' and boosters most important role may prove to be -- to provide people with protection against hospitalization and death (and protect our hospital capacity) while we all eventually get exposed to the real virus over the next 2, 5, 10, or 20 years (whatever it takes for everyone to get exposed in the wild).

 

[Patri]

You are wise, Greg.

 

[joestein]

Hello @heathpack,

As before, thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments -- truly. I shortened the Quote above, not to selectively edit, but to try to be as responsive to your point. My thread above is probably confusing because I am confused, and I will attempt to recreate how I got here, if you will indulge me.

I believe the last 18 months suggest that the alternative viewpoints have been correct all along:
- Lockdowns lead to other issues
- Natural immunity is a real thing (and is durable)
- These vaccines are leaky (allowing breakthrough infections)
- We don't know the long term safety profile of repeated dosing (we are running this clinical trial real time)
- Medicine is not one-size-fits-all (ie, two-dose vaccination) and other therapies might provide benefit
- There are risk factors (age, obesity, diabetic, low Vitamin D) for severe COVID and we should factor that into our public health posture

Strange days and I thank you again for your thoughtful response. And I apologize for the lengthy rant -- frustrating stuff...

Best,

Greg

Tremendous explanation. I would also like to point out that our medical industry is more interested in profit than healing. A drug that protects us from COVID that requires a new shot every six month and is being paid for by the gov't is a wet dream to the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[joestein]

While I am 100% in favor of the Covid vaccines, am fully vaccinated, and will get the booster whenever Moderna boosters are approved, I do agree with some of your bullets above.

• I believe the initial lockdowns in March 2020 were necessary at first to buy time, allow us to ramp up PPE production, and learn how to deal with the new virus, etc, but I've never seen lockdowns as a smart long term strategy. The long term economic and societal damage is greater than the long term benefits that can realistically be achieved. Lockdowns help you contain a virus that is just beginning to spread, and if you can use lockdowns to contain it and wipe it out early, that is the best strategy. But our woeful lack of testing in those early months meant the virus spread undetected globally well beyond the point of containment before the lockdowns could have the desired effect. After the virus was loose, all lockdowns did was slow the inevitable. Reasonable public health measures like indoor masking, indoor distancing, etc. are still appropriate measures than can help slow spread during surge outbreaks to protect hospital capacity, but we are well past the stage where true lockdowns have any real value. When you lock down, yes, virus spread slows, but unless the virus is eradicated (which it can't be now), as soon as things open back up, the virus still has a lot of vulnerable human kindling to burn through. In my non-expert opinion, that is why Hawaii had such a serious surge in July/August even though they have one of the highest vaccination rates in the country - their isolation, coupled with the strict and persistent lockdowns, resulted in a very low rate of natural infections of the local citizens, meaning that the vaccines had to carry a lot more of the weight in creating immunity/antibodies in their population compared to places that have both higher natural immunity and high vaccinations. So, as activity and tourism increased this summer, and as restrictions were lifted and the locals let down their guard, the virus had that fresh kindling to burn.
• While natural immunity MAY provide more durable protection than vaccines (the data is mixed on this, too), the death toll to reach the point where virtually everyone has been exposed naturally to the virus would have been horrific. Clearly, 700,000 and still rising (just in the US) is bad enough, but if the strategy was for everyone to get infected, the toll would be many times more if we were to have 330 million or so infections. My personal belief is vaccination, coupled with increasing natural immunity, is ultimately how the pandemic ends.
• Vaccines aren't perfect, obviously, but breakthrough infections among the vaccinated wind up in the hospital or the grave at a much lower rate than the unvaccinated. So, while I'm vaccinated, my assumption is at some point, I'll probably still be exposed and maybe get Covid. That might be next week, next month, next year, or several years from now. But since I'm vaccinated, I will hopefully have a good chance that Covid will just be a cold or maybe at worst like a bad case of the flu. So, that's what I think vaccines' and boosters most important role may prove to be -- to provide people with protection against hospitalization and death (and protect our hospital capacity) while we all eventually get exposed to the real virus over the next 2, 5, 10, or 20 years (whatever it takes for everyone to get exposed in the wild).

I believe that the death toll is exaggerated. I don't doubt that people died from COVID - but I bet you could probably shave off 100K - 200K. I think that anybody who died who tested positive for COVID was listed as killed by it. Also - no Flu deaths lately? There are usually over 100K each year.

Plus total reported COVID cases = 44 Million. Deaths of 707K = 1.6%. I think that is far greater than the expected death rate, which is under 1%.