Stop paying HRA MF's??

[LobsterHunter]

So I'm just curious if there is anyone out here who has stopped paying HRA MF's and let Marriott/Harborside foreclose on your ownership that was fully paid for and without any outstanding loan? Was there any impact on your credit score since the property is in the Bahamas? If you still had a loan on the property, that is different, since it could be considered a loan in the US. With how Marriott has destroyed the value of Vistana, I am considering selling all of my other properties and then just letting the HRA properties go unpaid. Yes, I know we will lose our lifetime platinum status (and annual titanium status) that we have earned, but at this point, that is almost worthless with Marriott since we get treated like 3rd class citizens at almost every hotel property. Upgrades and benefits are almost worthless and we can get better value at other hotel chains.

 

[tomandrobin]

I have no answer, but like you I am dismayed by what is happening with the MF at the resort. 2025 will be my last year of ownership at HRA.

 

[dioxide45]

THere are at least 1000 weeks already in default and we haven't heard a lot of stuff on TUG about those people getting credit hits. For the most part, a credit hit on defaulted maintenace fees is very low. When you default, you may lose access to your Bonvoy account. That happens when Marriott owners default. I don't think they will cancel any reservations made with other VOIs though. I understand Marriott restricts usage across all ownerships even if you default on one.

 

[DanCali]

I don't think defaulting should be your first option...

Unless you own a 2BR (non-lockoff) it will be hard to sell.

But you can always ask Vistana if they'll take it - have you tried that?

You can also try to sell it along with some sweeteners like a good 2025 reservation and without asking for MF reimbursement at closing.

 

[cubigbird]

Can they legally restrict usage of other ownerships if they are paid current? If they are separate ownership contracts, they would technically not be in default? Would that be a breach by Vistana/Marriott?

 

[tomandrobin]

THere are at least 1000 weeks already in default and we haven't heard a lot of stuff on TUG about those people getting credit hits. For the most part, a credit hit on defaulted maintenace fees is very low. When you default, you may lose access to your Bonvoy account. That happens when Marriott owners default. I don't think they will cancel any reservations made with other VOIs though. I understand Marriott restricts usage across all ownerships even if you default on one.

I could imagine that after this round of MF increases, that number will more than double.

So....Are you saying that if you own 5 weeks at different resorts and default on one week, they will deny you access to all of them?

 

[jp10558]

that is almost worthless with Marriott since we get treated like 3rd class citizens at almost every hotel property. Upgrades and benefits are almost worthless and we can get better value at other hotel chains.

I think this may be the second post I've seen about the Marriott hotel chain not treating (I assume) Bonvoy status members well. I guess it's a bit OT, but care to expand a little? I guess I just want to know what you see as being treated poorly at the hotels.

 

[tomandrobin]

I think this may be the second post I've seen about the Marriott hotel chain not treating (I assume) Bonvoy status members well. I guess it's a bit OT, but care to expand a little? I guess I just want to know what you see as being treated poorly at the hotels.

I cant speak for the OP, but back when we were owned by Starwood, our status meant something and had real value. But now that we are under the Marriott umbrella, status does not get you much in the way of perks and upgrades.

 

[dioxide45]

I could imagine that after this round of MF increases, that number will more than double.

So....Are you saying that if you own 5 weeks at different resorts and default on one week, they will deny you access to all of them?

I said that this is Marriott's current policy. As I understand it if an MVC owner defaults on a deed, they will prevent them from using any other Marriott reservations. As I understand it, in the past, Vistana did not do this. I don't know if anything has changed with regard to this.

 

[dioxide45]

Can they legally restrict usage of other ownerships if they are paid current? If they are separate ownership contracts, they would technically not be in default? Would that be a breach by Vistana/Marriott?

Without looking at the VSN rules, I guess it might depend on what you are using and how you are using it. They may not be able to prevent you from booking a home resort reservation on current deeds if you default on another. But with VSN or Abound, they may have more leeway on how they tread reservations. I was just laying out how I understand Marriott Vacation Club and Vistana have done this in the past.

 

[DanCali]

I cant speak for the OP, but back when we were owned by Starwood, our status meant something and had real value. But now that we are under the Marriott umbrella, status does not get you much in the way of perks and upgrades.

I recently had a stay at a Residence Inn where they full acknowledged that, as Titanium, get "guaranteed" 4pm checkout, but really pushed for me to leave by 1pm because they were sold out the next day.

That's what happens when you can "buy" Platinum that status by paying an annual fee on a credit card of $650 (or a lot less after the dining credits). When everyone is Platinum, nobody is really "Platinum".

 

[bizaro86]

I cant speak for the OP, but back when we were owned by Starwood, our status meant something and had real value. But now that we are under the Marriott umbrella, status does not get you much in the way of perks and upgrades.

Yeah. Anyone who had SPG status knows how much Marriott status is worth by comparison.

 

[5finny]

I think foreclosure should be a last option to be taken only after all else has failed
I recognize that others have different opinions
If all else fails and you have no reasonable option but foreclosure then a possible work around in terms of Marriott denying access to other VOI's is to either sell the units or transfer those units to family before you default
Anyone accepting ownership would be accepting the obligation to pay the future maintenance fees on the units they own
If those ownerships have value fine--if not then certainly do not transfer them to a family member as you would be simply putting a family member in the same position that you are trying to escape from

 

[daviator]

The thing about just stopping MF payments and letting your ownership foreclose is that you aren’t really punishing the developer, you are hurting your fellow owners who will have to collectively pay the MFs you are skipping out on. It is similar behavior by other owners that is, in part at least, raising the MFs so high that you are considering skipping out too.

For me at least, I would have to consider the impact of my actions on other owners and that would play a role in my decision. Certainly just walking away from obligations which I agreed to would be an option of last resort. I would try to give the ownership away or maybe even pay someone to accept it.

 

[LobsterHunter]

I don't think defaulting should be your first option...

Unless you own a 2BR (non-lockoff) it will be hard to sell.

But you can always ask Vistana if they'll take it - have you tried that?

You can also try to sell it along with some sweeteners like a good 2025 reservation and without asking for MF reimbursement at closing.

Yes, I have asked Vistana to take it back either in trade at an owner's update as well as calling their department that handles deed-backs.

 

[tomandrobin]

The thing about just stopping MF payments and letting your ownership foreclose is that you aren’t really punishing the developer, you are hurting your fellow owners who will have to collectively pay the MFs you are skipping out on. It is similar behavior by other owners that is, in part at least, raising the MFs so high that you are considering skipping out too.

Just putting this thought out there.....

If you can not sell a timeshare because it no longer has resale value and the developer will not take it back, what other option does an owner have at a death spiral resort?

At what point can a resort no longer maintain its ownership?

 

[bizaro86]

Just putting this thought out there.....

If you can not sell a timeshare because it no longer has resale value and the developer will not take it back, what other option does an owner have at a death spiral resort?

At what point can a resort no longer maintain its ownership?

Yeah. I mean I agree there's a responsibility to other owners to try and deal with it. But once some certain percentage of other owners have defaulted any individual can't fix the problem, it can only be fixed by the board/management finding a home for VOIs/cutting costs/increasing rental revenues.

I don't think anyone would argue if every other owners defaults then a single owner has an ethical obligation to pay the expenses for the whole resort. That makes the question "where is the line where it becomes acceptable to default".

 

[jp10558]

Yeah. I mean I agree there's a responsibility to other owners to try and deal with it. But once some certain percentage of other owners have defaulted any individual can't fix the problem, it can only be fixed by the board/management finding a home for VOIs/cutting costs/increasing rental revenues.

I don't think anyone would argue if every other owners defaults then a single owner has an ethical obligation to pay the expenses for the whole resort. That makes the question "where is the line where it becomes acceptable to default".

I sort of feel like if there's no way to deedback or give away a week then default becomes the only option. As bad as it sounds, these HOAs who can't handle deedbacks probably need to try and find a management company that can. With the big chains I have 0 sympathy cause they can resell what they got back for free, and if they prefer to pay forclosure costs first, that's up to them. And HOAs need to consider keeping the timeshare relevant and attractive to some new owners so there's a resale market / at least a giveaway market. If that can't happen, then I think it's already in a death spiral as a resort.

 

[dioxide45]

I sort of feel like if there's no way to deedback or give away a week then default becomes the only option. As bad as it sounds, these HOAs who can't handle deedbacks probably need to try and find a management company that can. With the big chains I have 0 sympathy cause they can resell what they got back for free, and if they prefer to pay forclosure costs first, that's up to them. And HOAs need to consider keeping the timeshare relevant and attractive to some new owners so there's a resale market / at least a giveaway market. If that can't happen, then I think it's already in a death spiral as a resort.

The problem with Harborside Resort is that even Marriott Vacations doesn't want the inventory. As I understand the original developer, sales and management relationship is that the resort was developed by one company and sold and managed by Starwood Vacation Ownership. Starwood never really owned any inventory at the resort. What was unsold was rented out and the developer got a big slice of that money. I believe the resort is long sold out and they are just selling stuff that might slowly dribble in through foreclosure. It is possible that it takes years to foreclose on a property in the Bahamas. I suspect it is also very expensive. The HOA is also the one that would need to foreclose. Not the developer or the management company.

Marriott Vacations doesn't want to take in a whole bunch of these weeks because they don't want to have to pay the maintenance fees in order to carry them through to sale. The transfer process is also very expensive. Perhaps they could pass that on to the owner as part of a deed back fee. However the maintenance fees on 1,000 weeks we are probably talking about over $4 million in annual maintenance fees. They can't sell them that fast.

 

[TUGBrian]

would it even be a foreclosure though? as harborside is in the bahamas, are those even deeded ownerships? ive never seen one TBH. id certainly be curious as to how the ownership is categorized.

I know marriott/vistana refused to include harborside in their deedback/surrender programs for this very reason (the ownership/title transfer is different than regular us deeded weeks)

 

[dioxide45]

would it even be a foreclosure though? as harborside is in the bahamas, are those even deeded ownerships? ive never seen one TBH. id certainly be curious as to how the ownership is categorized.

I know marriott/vistana refused to include harborside in their deedback/surrender programs for this very reason (the ownership/title transfer is different than regular us deeded weeks)

I know transfers there are a real PIA and cost a lot of money as they require a Bahamas attorney. They must fall under whatever type of deeded ownership exits in the Bahamas. It isn't a simple certificate of ownership.

 

[DanCali]

would it even be a foreclosure though? as harborside is in the bahamas, are those even deeded ownerships? ive never seen one TBH. id certainly be curious as to how the ownership is categorized.

I know marriott/vistana refused to include harborside in their deedback/surrender programs for this very reason (the ownership/title transfer is different than regular us deeded weeks)

They refer to it there as an "Indenture of Conveyance" which, for someone not trained in law like myself, seems very similar to a recorded deed.

I believe the resort is long sold out and they are just selling stuff that might slowly dribble in through foreclosure. It is possible that it takes years to foreclose on a property in the Bahamas. I suspect it is also very expensive. The HOA is also the one that would need to foreclose. Not the developer or the management company.

If the HOA does the foreclusure, does the sales entity buy it from the HOA and resell it?

We owned two weeks there (have sold one since) - we bought one from an owner and the other was a foreclosed unit from the HOA. The unit we bought from the HOA was not a "direct" purchase though. It was advertised on Redweek like any resale and we dealt with a broker representing the HOA. The price was typical to resale prices at the time; it was actually the most competitive, which is why we ended up with it.

 

[intrepid18]

The thing about just stopping MF payments and letting your ownership foreclose is that you aren’t really punishing the developer, you are hurting your fellow owners who will have to collectively pay the MFs you are skipping out on. It is similar behavior by other owners that is, in part at least, raising the MFs so high that you are considering skipping out too.

For me at least, I would have to consider the impact of my actions on other owners and that would play a role in my decision. Certainly just walking away from obligations which I agreed to would be an option of last resort. I would try to give the ownership away or maybe even pay someone to accept it.

This is very naive and I would completely disregard as a consideration of default.

 

[daviator]

This is very naive and I would completely disregard as a consideration of default.

If it’s naive to consider the impact your default will have on other owners, then I will continue to be happily naive. We don’t live in a world where our actions only impact ourselves.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

If it’s naive to consider the impact your default will have on other owners, then I will continue to be happily naive. We don’t live in a world where our actions only impact ourselves.

Correct but unfortunately we do live in a world where a great many people THINK our actions only impact ourselves. Drive just about anywhere these days and you'll see a multitude of examples of this (not that I have a beef about DUI or modern driving standards (or the lack of them ))