Starwood gives the Licensed Timeshare Resale Brokers Association the brush off

[DeniseM]

The Licensed Timeshare Resale Brokers Association is meeting in Florida this week. (Brian is in attendance.) Many of the big timeshare companies have representatives at the meeting, including Marriott.

One of the big issues being discussed is how to educate timeshare owners about the upfront fee companies.

Starwood was invited. No response. Starwood chooses to work with an upfront fee company rather than Licensed Timeshare Resale Brokers that don't charge upfront fees.

More info. - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1201955#post1201955

 

[Dave H]

The Licensed Timeshare Resale Brokers Association is meeting in Florida this week. (Brian is in attendance.) Many of the big timeshare companies have representatives at the meeting, including Marriott.

One of the big issues being discussed is how to educate timeshare owners about the upfront fee companies.

More info. - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1201955#post1201955

Actually Denise, that may not be a 100% true statement. In fact, one of the people that SVO refers people to is a LTRBA member. Also, one never knows what the business model of the other company is in relationship to the business model of the client in this case SVO. Maybe they do not do upfront fees on the referrals, has anyone called the other company posing as a SVO owner to see?

That is a pretty bold statment that may not be 100% true..... Careful, you are a moderator....

 

[DeniseM]

Actually Denise, that may not be a 100% true statement. In fact, one of the people that SVO refers people to is a LTRBA member. Also, one never knows what the business model of the other company is in relationship to the business model of the client in this case SVO. Maybe they do not do upfront fees on the referrals, has anyone called the other company posing as a SVO owner to see?

That is a pretty bold statment that may not be 100% true..... Careful, you are a moderator....

Actually - If you contact Starwood, they will consistently refer you to an upfront fee company, and they actually sent out info. to owners, recommending the same upfront fee company, so this has already been well-established. In fact, I contacted them myself... and they recommended an upfront fee company. Other Tuggers had the same experience.

As far as offering Starwood owners better terms - that makes zero difference to me. I don't want to have anything to do with an upfront fee company - period!

Careful, you are a moderator....

Yes - and I'm allowed to share my experiences and opinions just like any other TUG member...

 

[Dave H]

So what your complaining about is the fact that the compaany has one model that has an upfront listing fee on certain transactions. Not that they are charging SVO owners an upfront fee?

Every business has different models they work from. I am sure if I am Donald Trump, and I wanted a suit, I would call my favorite Sax store or tailor, they go find it for me, bring it to my office and fit me there, but you and I get to go to the store and have to try it on, they will not bring it to you or me. That too is a different business model. So do I not frequent that store because they treat me different?

Just because they refer a company who has a business model that includes advertising, does not mean that is their only business model. I am not defending the choice, but you can not say a company is bad because one model does not agree with you.

 

[DeniseM]

Dave - You have completely lost me with your post above. You apparently have inside info. about this situation that the rest of us are not privy to.

This is what I'm saying:

1. As an owner, I wish my management company had attended the LTRBA Conference.

2. As an owner, I wish my management company was not affiliated with an upfront fee company that makes cold calls and collects large upfront fees from people.

YMMV

 

[jarta]

I think the point Dave H (who owns a closing company that TUG members have highly recommended) was making is this. And, it's the same point Ron Parise (a licensed real estate broker) made in the TUG thread you linked about the meeting.

There is nothing illegal about collecting a fee to cover the cost of opening a listing. Saying all companies or persons which collect a fee before listing a timeshare for sale are "always a SCAM!" paints with too broad a brush and libels legitimate businesses and legitimate business models for transacting business. That was Dave H's point. A point you clearly do not get.

There are scammers out there. Most are unlicensed and, therefore, unregulated which gives them the opportunity. But ............

Should a timeshare reseller open files and maintain a web site without recompense just for those whose timeshares eventually sell? Maybe you think so? Maybe others have been burned too often by sellers who decide to keep their timeshare when their inflated idea of its value does not pan out after months (or years) of listing? Does that make those timeshare resellers "always a SCAM!"?

It seems you are implying that Starwood knowingly encourages scamming by referring those who want to sell to a company that collects an upfront fee for services to be rendered? In your opinion, is it still a scam if the upfront fee is reasonable and the service is rendered efficiently and professionally? Is it your point that the upfront fee company Starwood refers people to always scams those people? ... eom

 

[DeniseM]

For those of you who missed round #1 - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136412

 

[pianodinosaur]

HGVC has a warning on it's website not to use any up front resale agents and to call them about it if we are approached by anyone offering to sell our timeshare for a fee.

Judi Kozlowski is one of the most reputable resale agents in the business. She is deeply appreciated by the HGVC community.

 

[arch53]

Value of TUG

An observation from a casual user of TUG: It is the candid, unvarnished and informed comments of individuals like Denise which make TUG such a valuable resource. I would hope that no one would suggest that she do anything other than what she has done in the past and hopefully she will continue to do in the future.

Just my two cents.

Arch53
Falmouth, ME

 

[TUGBrian]

ive heard quite a few complaints about moderation over the years, but someone having the opinion that its a poor idea for a developer to SUGGEST to its owners the use of a known upfront fee company to sell their timeshares vs giving them all current legitimate resale options available....thats pretty much how everyone on TUG "should" feel IMO.

moderator or no, this is the sort of advice I would hope that anyone on TUG would give any other member looking for assistance in selling. I cant think of any situation where suggesting they go use an upfront fee company before anything else is a good idea.

TUG will always stand behind education being king, and if someone is presented with all the facts about the resale market and THEN chooses to take that knowledge and specifically choose an upfront fee company...thats most certainly their right as an adult in this country....more power to them.

We arent here to make your decisions for you, we are here to present our opinions and knowledge in the hopes that information will be used as intended and will assist all those who read it in making an informed and educated decision....and ultimately keep them from being ripped off as so many are in the resale market.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Starwood has a lot of nerve recommending a company that will probably never sell a single timeshare. Which Starwood exec is related to this person? If someone is looking for Starwood, no better venues than the ones we tout here: TUG Classifieds, My Resort Network, Redweek (no luck for me), Timesharing Today magazine, and a few others.

The Starwood salespeople are actually telling people not to buy resale because most Staroptions don't transfer to a resale buyer. I had someone contact me (an hour after a timeshare presentation) from a MRN ad who said, "Why would I pay retail for something that isn't worth anything after I buy it?" I said, "Precisely."

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

Starwood

Actually Denise, that may not be a 100% true statement. In fact, one of the people that SVO refers people to is a LTRBA member. Also, one never knows what the business model of the other company is in relationship to the business model of the client in this case SVO. Maybe they do not do upfront fees on the referrals, has anyone called the other company posing as a SVO owner to see?

That is a pretty bold statment that may not be 100% true..... Careful, you are a moderator....

Let me clear the air. The person that SVO refers to is a PENDING member of LTRBA as his dues have not been paid as of this moment. He will then be vetted and will become a member once that process is done. I own a Vistana unit. I received the letter last November that gave the name of the company that Starwood was referring all of their members that had their units listed for resale. The letter stated that SVO would not continue their resale program and they were recommending a particular company. I personally called the number and was given the choice of paying $499.00 upfront or a commission on the backend. I was told that they would cooperate with other Brokers. I asked if I paid the $499.00 up front would I incur any other charges and they said no. I asked how the Broker would get paid. No answer for that. So to make a bold statement. SVO was invited to the LTRBA meeting. There was no response. The developers that were there Marriott, Hilton, Westgate, and Disney Vacation Club do not send their Sellers to anyone who charges an upfront fee. I realize that there are different business models out there. The business model of the LTRBA Broker is not to charge an upfront fee on any type. Two members were deleted from the membership last week for charging an advertising fee. If the Broker that SVO refers to that has the pending membership with LTRBA is found to charge an upfront fee he will not be a member for long. We do shop all of our Brokers on a regular basis. I think the LTRBA business model is the model to stop the scam in timeshare. That is my opinion.

 

[TUGBrian]

clearly some of you cannot follow instructions after repeated requests, so ive cleaned up this thread.

if its off topic from here on out, it gets deleted.

 

[jarta]

Judi, ... Would a company which charges an upfront fee for membership in it's "club" in order to list a timeshare property for sale or rent on its web site qualify for membership in LTRBA?

Actually, that's exactly what TUG does. Join by paying the $15 membership and you get to list timeshares for sale on the TUG web site.

Are all companies/organizations that do not follow your organization's business model and charge an upfront fee before a timeshare may be listed for sale "always a SCAM!" in the eyes of LTRBA - or just not allowed to be a member of your organization?

By the way, the "L" in your organization's acronym stands for licensed. Won't the unlicensed brokers and unlicensed eBay "selling agents" continue to charge whatever it is they have charged to obtain the right to resell a timeshare and just ignore your business model? Often they ignore State licensing requirements - with impunity.

You are a prominent seller on eBay. Will you you or your organization be advocating a boycott of eBay selling unless eBay prevents activity in upfront fee selling models - and polices it? ... eom

 

[DonTBS]

SMTN and Timeshare Broker Services

What is lost in this thread is that SMTN owns Timeshare Broker Services which has a traditional broker commissison model. Both companies operate under a Delaware Corp., Vacation HotDeals Inc. The lines between the ad company (SMTN) and the broker company (TBS) have become increasingly blurred. Further, SMTN/TBS sales personnel can present a rental opportunity, and now, I understand, an exit strategy of direct purchase. This business model is the centerpiece of their goal to present a seller ALL available options, one stop shopping if you will. If you review the new SMTN site, they now praise the virtues of brokerage as an option, when not long ago, the site villified them.

So, in the end, SVO felt it was OK to offer their owners the choice of an upfront ad option, or a commission based broker option, or maybe a rental option, and even an exit for cash option. This strikes me as odd for a conservative company like SVO.

 

[TUGBrian]

yes, TUG is totally an upfront fee company and a scam...thanks for clearing that up for all of us.

 

[siesta]

yes, TUG is totally an upfront fee company and a scam...thanks for clearing that up for all of us.

I knew it all along.

 

[TUGBrian]

please dont tell anyone else, lets keep it between us.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

Upfront fees

Judi, ... Would a company which charges an upfront fee for membership in it's "club" in order to list a timeshare property for sale or rent on its web site qualify for membership in LTRBA?

Actually, that's exactly what TUG does. Join by paying the $15 membership and you get to list timeshares for sale on the TUG web site.

Are all companies/organizations that do not follow your organization's business model and charge an upfront fee before a timeshare may be listed for sale "always a SCAM!" in the eyes of LTRBA - or just not allowed to be a member of your organization?

By the way, the "L" in your organization's acronym stands for licensed. Won't the unlicensed brokers and unlicensed eBay "selling agents" continue to charge whatever it is they have charged to obtain the right to resell a timeshare and just ignore your business model? Often they ignore State licensing requirements - with impunity.

You are a prominent seller on eBay. Will you you or your organization be advocating a boycott of eBay selling unless eBay prevents activity in upfront fee selling models - and polices it? ... eom

Just to clarify the upfront fee situation. It wasn't the upfront fee it was the lie that was told to me about the value of my timeshare that was wrong. I don't approve of upfront fees but in this case it was the inflation of the value of my Vistana week that bothered me. So paying a membership to Tug is not the same thing as paying a "membership" to an advertising company that has inflated a price to collect a fee. I am not singling out one company I am talking about all of them.

As far as eBay you are 100% correct. The unlicensed activity is a major problem. I am on the end of receiving emails from clients who have been deeded the wrong property, lost their earnest money because the Seller disappeared, have bought property with the use of the week already gone etc etc.. If the Buyer was dealing with a licensed real estate agent they would have a source to recoup their money.
With eBay they have no recourse. If you place a rental of timeshare on eBay you have to go through hoops to place the ad. If you place a unit for sale there are no rules. Something is wrong with that picture. Yes we have reached out to eBay and to State Officials about the problem. In due time.

As far as other business models I really don't need to comment on their business model. As long as they are within the boundaries of the law they can do what they want. As long as they can find enough people that are uninformed and elderly they will remain in business. As for the LTRBA group we will continue to do what we do following our business model of selling timeshare and collecting a commission when the sale closes.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

SVO

What is lost in this thread is that SMTN owns Timeshare Broker Services which has a traditional broker commissison model. Both companies operate under a Delaware Corp., Vacation HotDeals Inc. The lines between the ad company (SMTN) and the broker company (TBS) have become increasingly blurred. Further, SMTN/TBS sales personnel can present a rental opportunity, and now, I understand, an exit strategy of direct purchase. This business model is the centerpiece of their goal to present a seller ALL available options, one stop shopping if you will. If you review the new SMTN site, they now praise the virtues of brokerage as an option, when not long ago, the site villified them.

So, in the end, SVO felt it was OK to offer their owners the choice of an upfront ad option, or a commission based broker option, or maybe a rental option, and even an exit for cash option. This strikes me as odd for a conservative company like SVO.

I found this odd as well. I am not sure this business model is accepted in Florida. It sounds like it crosses the line.

 

[ampaholic]

An observation from a casual user of TUG: It is the candid, unvarnished and informed comments of individuals like Denise which make TUG such a valuable resource. I would hope that no one would suggest that she do anything other than what she has done in the past and hopefully she will continue to do in the future.

Just my two cents.

Arch53
Falmouth, ME

I agree - the variety of outlooks is the spice of visiting TUG BBS - if everyone were lock-stepping the same opinion, it would be just BORING.
:whoopie:

Besides - Denise is "da bomb"

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

SVO

HGVC has a warning on it's website not to use any up front resale agents and to call them about it if we are approached by anyone offering to sell our timeshare for a fee.

Judi Kozlowski is one of the most reputable resale agents in the business. She is deeply appreciated by the HGVC community.

I truly appreciate that comment. Thank you so much.

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

Upfront Fee

So what your complaining about is the fact that the compaany has one model that has an upfront listing fee on certain transactions. Not that they are charging SVO owners an upfront fee?

Every business has different models they work from. I am sure if I am Donald Trump, and I wanted a suit, I would call my favorite Sax store or tailor, they go find it for me, bring it to my office and fit me there, but you and I get to go to the store and have to try it on, they will not bring it to you or me. That too is a different business model. So do I not frequent that store because they treat me different?

Just because they refer a company who has a business model that includes advertising, does not mean that is their only business model. I am not defending the choice, but you can not say a company is bad because one model does not agree with you.

Dave,
Not that they are charging SVO owners an upfront fee is not correct. I am a Starwood Owner. I called the 800 given to me and I was given the option of
paying an upfront fee or paying a commission on the back end. My Vistana was worth $7,000.00 and if I did go with the upfront fee there would be no commission on the back end even if a Broker sold the unit. Something is very wrong with this picture. The unit is worth $500 to $1,000.00 is the biggest problem. Your analogy is really off the wall.
Because a company has a business model that includes advertising does not mean that the advertising fee is the problem. The problem is what is said to collect the upfront fee. I am not saying that anyone has to agree with me.
I will do my part and try to educate the real estate community and the consumer. That will slow the lies that people believe down to a slow pace.
If you were at our meeting you would see that the Investigators from the State of Florida who spoke are very actively trying to make sure the "other" business model is not scamming the consumer. The Attorney from the Attorney General’s office made the statement that the group of 60 Brokers that were present at the meeting are selling timeshare the way it should be sold. Our State Representative that was there applauded was for our business model. The Developers that were there are aware that resale is here to stay and they are committed to having a proper business model for the resale of timeshare. This is the first time in history, to my knowledge that Developers and resale Brokers were in the same room without ARDA being present. Timeshare is real estate and should be sold as such. PERIOD.

 

[jarta]

"Timeshare is real estate and should be sold as such. PERIOD."

On that we totally agree. There are statutes and regulations and licensing requirements governing the selling real estate. They should be complied with. They are not being complied with for timeshare resales.

I have found the number of posts on TUG's Starwood forum which advocate the use of unlicensed and unbonded timeshare resellers and closers for eBay sales in order to avoid paying the attendant costs to be exceedingly odd and dangerous advice. ... eom

 

[Judi Kozlowski]

Licensed Agents

"Timeshare is real estate and should be sold as such. PERIOD."

On that we totally agree. There are statutes and regulations and licensing requirements governing the selling real estate. They should be complied with. They are not being complied with for timeshare resales.

I have found the number of posts on TUG's Starwood forum which advocate the use of unlicensed and unbonded timeshare resellers and closers for eBay sales in order to avoid paying the attendant costs to be exceedingly odd and dangerous advice. ... eom

If people dealt with licensed agents we would not be having this conversation. The regulatory agencies would step in. We are trying to change the method of doing business so that the states and regulations are complied with. We have come a long way with this in the past two years.

I don't have a chance to read the posts but if I would see a post that advocates the use of unlicensed resellers and closers I would certainly say something. I spend a great deal of my time helping people who have been scammed by these same unlicensed and unbonded timeshare resellers.
I have had a number of clients that have come to me because the "closing" company holding the escrow turned out to be the same person that is selling the unit and they have disappeared. Hopefully we will see some legislation passed that will cause these "closing" companies to be bonded and licensed. Right now they are free to do whatever they want. I would prefer to spend my time selling but my giving back to the industry is helping the elderly get their money back or help them to avoid scams.