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Sometimes it's better to buy from the brand [says Timeshare Salesman]

tombanjo

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if you claim ben and jerry's is 50% sugar, one would like to see some data to back that up
 

maxpot46

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I appreciate the dialectic because this helps me learn more about how this industry works.

+1 @SmithOp I also believe the 50% ROFR is off for most properties, but may be true for super premier properties e.g. NYC penthouses, Event weeks etc. ROFR.net has more typical percentages which are around 25 - 30%.

Perhaps there are some cases where a developer purchase makes sense but this is < 1% of the timeshares out there.

I predict that those units in NYC are:
  • High-point, high-end penthouses or Event Weeks etc. that cost $75,000 or more (big capital requirement, financing)
  • New developments where resale is not widely available yet (Residences, Quin). High price point means most units are financed so owners can't sell for 10 years until the loans are paid off. Resales won't be widely available until these loans are paid off in 10 years.
  • Hard to get units that rarely come on the resale market e.g. (low MF, low number of units) where only the developer has them in inventory via ROFR, and trade-ins.
And the types of buyers this would make sense for are:
  • If one lives in the NYC/DC metro areas and already visit NYC regularly overnight and expect do so for next 20 years, then perhaps one of these newer, high-end units pencil out to a better deal compared to the alternatives.
  • People who own or work for businesses that regularly visit NYC - they want a comfortable high-end unit for themselves or their staff where everything can be written off on a business account. Businesses don't have time to wait for resale deals and want to deal directly with the developer. When they sell, they dump and don't care because the money to purchase the unit was already written off or highly depreciated with accelerated business depreciation. (a few TUGer killer deals on Ebay may have been a windfall from this.)
    • With tax reform some advisors are recommending that professionals like lawyers, consultants, and doctors find ways to get below the section 199A $315,000 married income limit so they get the 20% deduction pass-through. Some are buying $100,000 Teslas that meet the 6000 lb GVW limit to lower their income. Perhaps as real estate, a $100,000 timeshare purchase may qualify to lower the business expense in the year to qualify for section 199A?
  • People with money to burn, own many second homes and don't want the hassle of owning and maintaining yet another condo or home.
@maxpot46 Would you agree or change the buyer profile above based on your experience?

However for most people that don't live in the NY/DC corridor, are not set on NYC visits every year, or may want to sell in less than 20 years and recoup all or part of their resale purchase, or don't have $75k discretionary to burn but can afford $20k, then resale is the way to go - not perfect because you may not own the latest unit but "good enough" given that $55k+ can pay for a year or two of college tuition, or health care.

Besides, you don't need to buy a high-end unit to stay in one. As a low-end NYC studio resale owner you have the same access to the owners reservation window for up to 60 days prior so you can can easily upgrade using your NYC points to a view, bigger unit or penthouse stay by borrowing points, staying on weeknights, or shortening your stay without the cash outlay of a penthouse or view unit.


P.S. Must TUGers don't fit the buyer profile above, hence the pushback. However the MF they pay from resale is the same as those who bought developer and keep the HOAs solvent when people who never should have purchased a TS default and dump their timeshares. Resale buyers play a critical role in the ecosystem because they enable a path to exit which many of the TS companies fail to do.

Developers need to step up their exit and secondary market programs or the entire industry will crumble because people are becoming increasingly fearful of lock-in.
This was an awesome post, thanks a ton for this contribution!

You are correct that I assert a ROFR of 50% only for the most premium properties. For other properties in areas with a high supply of timeshare units, I typically estimate the ROFR to be around 20-25%.

My proposition is that it's not better to purchase resale 100% of the time. If it's only in 1% of the cases, then all the better, if my product is in that 1%.

Yes, I'm referring to expensive, premium products such as you describe. You excellently capture why someone might prefer to own such a deed, but I'd add that another motivation for purchase might be simply to have one of those rare deeds that actually does retain a high percentage of equity value.

I will also point out that if you want to resell within 20 years and maximize your return, it would behoove you to own in an area with strong real estate values and a low supply of timeshare units.
 

maxpot46

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As others have pointed out on rofr threads you can’t go by eBay final bid price, the seller may be a PCC that submits rofr at a much higher cost to include what was charged the original owner to get rid of it.

Even in my own case I don’t know what the price sent in was, although it was a reputable resale broker.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
This is interesting... what does PCC stand for?
 

DannyTS

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this conversation makes me a bit uncomfortable , a bit like sitting through a timeshare sales presentation. We are supposed to feel a bit stupid due to our education, what we own (junk apparently, not Ferraries), our financial illiteracy (we do not understand what a great deal we miss... if we only knew the details).

The difference is, it seems that I am not getting my $100-$150 incentive to waste my time. Where can i send my bill?
 

maxpot46

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A good example of this. I just booked a sale getaway from RCI. I paid 200 for the week. Book through the company it would have cost 900 and the rack rate was close to 1200. The rack rate at these places is set so the sales people can say look at the numbers and the money you save.:rolleyes:

This is extreme but rack rate is certainly not the number to use unless you are trying to prove a bogus point.
RCI Last Call Vacations are insanely awesome, an aspect of ownership that I stress heavily in my presentation. But these rates aren't available to renters. I think assuming an average rent of $220/night + taxes is very fair considering the average hotel ADR of $140 for a studio whereas timeshare typically offers 1-bedrooms of higher quality. It can obviously cost a lot more than that, and I am looking at AVERAGES. It's not fair for me to point to the very highest prices I can find, and it's not fair for anyone else to point to the very lowest prices they can find. Outliers don't disprove trends, else we couldn't assert that Chinese are short because Yao Ming.
 

e.bram

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Quote "Of course not, nor do they need to. I prove propositions by providing evidence of buybacks at that price. Proving that there is sugar in ice cream does not require a guarantee from Ben & Jerry's."





The ingredients are printed on the label of the Ben and Jerry's container. This is contract ie. de facto guarantee. Just like a Kosher or Parve which cause a lawsuit if not accurate. If the TS contract would off a minimum ROFR it would be legally enforceable.
 

maxpot46

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Well, this escalated quickly!

Am I the only one getting a feeling that @maxpot46 = @kaio ?
Perhaps Max is the identity that posts the 1% of the time kaio is not working...

Hazing ritual for a newbie TS salesperson was exactly my thoughts.
If not, definitely wrong place to try to educate people and/or make a sales pitch.
On the subject of TS, the average TUG user has >> knowledge than the average TS salesperson.
I have stated several times that I'm not pitching nor seeking to educate anyone but myself. Some folks just like to cartoonishly cast people as villains and impute motives that aren't supported by evidence. Honestly, hasn't this resulted in a lot of good information revealed through dialectic? Exactly what I was hoping for. I appreciate everyone who has engaged me with the intellectual honesty to steel man me instead of straw manning me.
 

maxpot46

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Since I normally stick to threads from the major brands, I just caught this thread today.





In case everyone is missing it, OP doesn't say his company uses ROFR at RETAIL prices, but at 50% of MARKET prices. IOW, he sells it for 22K, in two weeks it's worth 2.2k on the open market, and they will buy it back for 1.1k. What a great company that will give their customer 50% of the value they could receive selling it to anyone else!!!
By "market" price, I simply meant "retail" price from the developer. Again, dialectic is best approached via steel man and not straw man... interpreting statements charitably or asking for clarification if ambiguous are essential elements to jointly discovering truths.
 

maxpot46

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Aside from all the wacky numbers, I bought a gold two bedroom Grand Vista for $1500. I lock it off every year and get two, 2 bedroom units at various places, including Ocean Pointe, sometimes even three bedrooms. Beat that. And I graduated summa cum laude with a business degree and then got a JD. (I don't understand how that improves my comments, though).
It doesn't logically, though of course it helps in regards to ethos, which is quite important to rhetoric. But in any case, if you actually read the words and note the context of my claim, it's obvious that it wasn't to appeal to my own authority as a reason to dismiss an argument, but to describe how my interests and training have allowed me to achieve a far deeper financial understanding of the product THAN MY COLLEAGUES, not necessarily the participants in this thread. I do understand how reading comprehension suffers in one's haste to sling mud with a witty, sarcastic comment, however.
 

bbodb1

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Some folks just like to cartoonishly cast people as villains and impute motives that aren't supported by evidence.
....And you call yourself a timeshare salesman?
 

maxpot46

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Well, that's not an "Ivy League Economics Degree" (the caps are important for some reason). So point goes to......nah, I don't get it either.

But I'd be a little concerned if an "Ivy League Economics Degree" results in a job selling timeshare.

Ironic. You can spend a whole lot of money for an economics degree at an ivy league school or a whole lot less at a state college and come out with the same knowledge. Not unlike buying TS retail or resale.
But I digress.
You don't get an Ivy League education for the knowledge, one can get that for free. Not so free are the impressiveness on a resume or the connections it enables.
 

maxpot46

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if you claim ben and jerry's is 50% sugar, one would like to see some data to back that up
Yes, which is precisely why I show a forum post by an owner stating his buyback offer for my product was 50%, and an email from a timeshare reseller who describes how I shouldn't list this deed for resale for only 50% because if I did my company would swoop in with the ROFR and (gasp) dare to make a profit.
 

breezez

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RCI Last Call Vacations are insanely awesome, an aspect of ownership that I stress heavily in my presentation. But these rates aren't available to renters. I think assuming an average rent of $220/night + taxes is very fair considering the average hotel ADR of $140 for a studio whereas timeshare typically offers 1-bedrooms of higher quality. It can obviously cost a lot more than that, and I am looking at AVERAGES. It's not fair for me to point to the very highest prices I can find, and it's not fair for anyone else to point to the very lowest prices they can find. Outliers don't disprove trends, else we couldn't assert that Chinese are short because Yao Ming.
Actually Wyndham has many outlets it uses to move last minute RCI deals through just look at Wyndham Destinations list of companies and you will see the others...
 

breezez

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maxpot46

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this conversation makes me a bit uncomfortable , a bit like sitting through a timeshare sales presentation. We are supposed to feel a bit stupid due to our education, what we own (junk apparently, not Ferraries), our financial illiteracy (we do not understand what a great deal we miss... if we only knew the details).

The difference is, it seems that I am not getting my $100-$150 incentive to waste my time. Where can i send my bill?
I've insulted no one, nor implied that anyone was stupid. It helps to actually read the words and not just skim enough to confirm one's biases. If you're uncomfortable, no one is forcing you to stay and participate.
 

maxpot46

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Quote "Of course not, nor do they need to. I prove propositions by providing evidence of buybacks at that price. Proving that there is sugar in ice cream does not require a guarantee from Ben & Jerry's."





The ingredients are printed on the label of the Ben and Jerry's container. This is contract ie. de facto guarantee. Just like a Kosher or Parve which cause a lawsuit if not accurate. If the TS contract would off a minimum ROFR it would be legally enforceable.
True, but you could ALSO just run a chemical analysis to prove your point, and no guarantee would be necessary. In fact, that's what one would HAVE to do if in fact there was no such guarantee, as in this case.
 

tombanjo

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PCC = Post Card Company. A company that solicits a high up front fee to "get rid" of your timeshare. Since they may collect several thousands up front, they roll that into the "price" they put on the ROFR document to help get it to pass. You may pay one dollar, but the reported price might be $6742 as $6741 dollars is what they charge the owner to sell it for a dollar.
 

DannyTS

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I've insulted no one, nor implied that anyone was stupid. It helps to actually read the words and not just skim enough to confirm one's biases. If you're uncomfortable, no one is forcing you to stay and participate.
what makes me uncomfortable is the claims without any factual basis. Just like in any TS sales presentation. Now that we know you sell HGVC in New York you can certainly give us some more details, why you think it may be better to buy retail.
 

maxpot46

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....And you call yourself a timeshare salesman?
No, I call myself a philosopher writing a book on ethics who refuses to manipulate or misrepresent, and is fond of providing empirical proof of my logically coherent assertions. I despise emotional selling, which can allow someone to sell snow to an eskimo. I wouldn't even try, there's snow everywhere, that's like stealing. I can only sell if I have the best product, which I do. And as I said, I'm very controversial in the office, and would have been fired for my refusal to sell emotionally if my performance hadn't shown that my way works too.
 

maxpot46

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PCC = Post Card Company. A company that solicits a high up front fee to "get rid" of your timeshare. Since they may collect several thousands up front, they roll that into the "price" they put on the ROFR document to help get it to pass. You may pay one dollar, but the reported price might be $6742 as $6741 dollars is what they charge the owner to sell it for a dollar.
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification and information.
 

andymul

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Can the mods make this post itself--by itself--a sticky?? Because it is *brilliant* and would answer a lot of newbie/should-I-rescind questions for every major branded system.
My thoughts exactly! As a newbie, I got SO MUCH out of that post.

WELL DONE!
 

maxpot46

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what makes me uncomfortable is the claims without any factual basis. Just like in any TS sales presentation. Now that we know you sell HGVC in New York you can certainly give us some more details, why you think it may be better to buy retail.
I provided a study to support my claims as to average deed price. I point to factual average hotel ADRs to support my contention that a $220/night + taxes rental rate is perfectly fair. If you don't understand that I'm not willing to put my job in jeopardy by revealing details about my employer and specifics about our programs, I can't help you.
 

brianfox

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I have stated several times that I'm not pitching nor seeking to educate anyone but myself. Some folks just like to cartoonishly cast people as villains and impute motives that aren't supported by evidence. Honestly, hasn't this resulted in a lot of good information revealed through dialectic? Exactly what I was hoping for. I appreciate everyone who has engaged me with the intellectual honesty to steel man me instead of straw manning me.
Evidence? Seriously?
You claim to know TUG well. Then you must certainly know we see a constant flow of newcomers we encounter with the same horror stories. Smart people who were goaded into buying from the developer. People locked into contracts they cannot get out of - ruining their lives. Talked into it by people like you.Get off your high horse, Mr. Ivy League. You ran into a brick wall at post #2 because we've seen your type here from time to time.

There has not been a single new piece of good information revealed through this thread. Except it sounds like you now know what a PCC is. Good for you.

Steak but no sizzle. Dialectics. Straw manning. Imputing motives. You are a walking cliche of everything we hate about timeshare presentations. Go away, @kaio.
 

cubigbird

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You don't get an Ivy League education for the knowledge, one can get that for free. Not so free are the impressiveness on a resume or the connections it enables.
If you have an Ivy League degree in economics then you know how supply and demand work and why resale prices are $0. End of story.
 

maxpot46

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Brianfox - You have me laughing.... I have a PHD - Public High-school Diploma and am sure I’m doing better than most timeshare sale peeps.
If you do, congratulations. We make a sick amount of money on our 6 hour workday.
 
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