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Sometimes it's better to buy from the brand [says Timeshare Salesman]

RX8

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Checking the internet it appears he is a salesperson with HGVC which happens to be one of the more resale friendly timeshares.
 
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jhac007

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Please PM me I am interested in your superior product. Hawaii (you heard has hurricanes and volcanoes) must not be in your superior product. Florida and the Caribbean definitely have hurricanes. California has earthquakes and forest fires. Just to list a few premier locations, therefore you must have better. Contact me for a sales meeting.
 

e.bram

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Those timeshares are pathetic. I sell Ferraris, not junk heaps. I can prove that MY COMPANY will buyback MY PRODUCT at an average of 50% of the market value, I demonstrate this proof in my presentation when I talk them through the spreadsheet once I get to the pricing phase at the end.
Proof????????? Will your company guarantee????????
 

theo

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Maxpot46:

I think it was the late Will Rogers who once advised "If you find yourself in a hole --- stop digging".

With all due respect, I think you may be wearing out your shovel here with vague, cryptic and unsupported assertions.
Just sayin'. :rolleyes:
 
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SmithOp

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Checking the internet it appears he is a salesperson with HGVC which happens to be one of the more resale friendly products.
If he is HGVC he’s been drinking the company kool-aid. His rofr number is off, its closer to 25%. I had a Kingsland 14,400 point 2 br premier unit pass rofr at $15k all in with closing costs. I have the pre-construction price sheet showing developer cost was over $80k. There is another one on the rofr.net site a little less than mine that passed also.


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CalGalTraveler

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NYC is a premium deed, given the real estate values and the fact that there are only 6 timeshare properties in the city (5 if you don't count the infamous lemon Manhattan Club).
I appreciate the dialectic because this helps me learn more about how this industry works.

+1 @SmithOp I also believe the 50% ROFR is off for most properties, but may be true for super premier properties e.g. NYC penthouses, Event weeks etc. ROFR.net has more typical percentages which are around 20 - 30%.

Perhaps there are some cases where a developer purchase makes sense but this is < 1% of the timeshares out there.

I predict that those units in NYC are:
  • High-point, high-end penthouses or Event Weeks etc. that cost $75,000 or more (big capital requirement, financing)
  • New developments where resale is not widely available yet (Residences, Quin). High price point means most units are financed so owners can't sell for 10 years until the loans are paid off. Resales won't be widely available until these loans are paid off in 10 years.
  • Hard to get units that rarely come on the resale market e.g. (low MF, low number of units) where only the developer has them in inventory via ROFR, and trade-ins.
And the types of buyers this would make sense for are:
  • If one lives in the NYC/DC metro areas and already visit NYC regularly overnight and expect do so for next 20 years, then perhaps one of these newer, high-end units pencil out to a better deal compared to the alternatives.
  • People who own or work for businesses that regularly visit NYC - they want a comfortable high-end unit for themselves or their staff where everything can be written off on a business account. Businesses don't have time to wait for resale deals and want to deal directly with the developer. When they sell, they dump and don't care because the money to purchase the unit was already written off or highly depreciated with accelerated business depreciation. (a few TUGer killer deals on Ebay may have been a windfall from this.)
    • With tax reform some advisors are recommending that professionals like lawyers, consultants, and doctors find ways to get below the section 199A $315,000 married income limit so they get the 20% deduction pass-through. Some are buying $100,000 Teslas that meet the 6000 lb GVW limit to lower their income. Perhaps as real estate, a $100,000 timeshare purchase may qualify to lower the business expense in the year to qualify for section 199A?
  • People with money to burn, own many second homes and don't want the hassle of owning and maintaining yet another condo or home.
@maxpot46 Would you agree or change the buyer profile above based on your experience?

However for most people that don't live in the NY/DC corridor, are not set on NYC visits every year, or may want to sell in less than 20 years and recoup all or part of their resale purchase, or don't have $75k discretionary to burn but can afford $20k, then resale is the way to go - not perfect because you may not own the latest unit but "good enough" given that $55k+ can pay for a year or two of college tuition, or health care.

Besides, you don't need to buy a high-end unit to stay in one. As a low-end NYC studio W57 resale owner you have the same access to the owners reservation window for up to 60 days prior so you can can easily upgrade using your resale NYC points to a view, bigger unit or penthouse stay by borrowing points, staying on weeknights, or shortening your stay without the cash outlay of a penthouse or view unit.


P.S. Must TUGers don't fit the buyer profile above, hence the pushback. However the MF they pay from resale is the same as those who bought developer and keep the HOAs solvent when people who never should have purchased a TS default and dump their timeshares. Resale buyers play a critical role in the ecosystem because they enable a path to exit which many of the TS companies fail to do.

Developers need to step up their exit and secondary market programs or the entire industry will crumble because people are becoming increasingly fearful of lock-in.
 
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SmithOp

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As others have pointed out on rofr threads you can’t go by eBay final bid price, the seller may be a PCC that submits rofr at a much higher cost to include what was charged the original owner to get rid of it.

Even in my own case I don’t know what the price sent in was, although it was a reputable resale broker.


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K2Quick

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If the guest is renting and does not own, it's perfectly fair to use the rack rate as they have no access to MF rates (correct?).
I would not say that is fair. The fairest comparison point would be rental rates from weeks owners who list their weeks for rent on sites like redweek as those rates are easy to find and easy to book. Hardly anyone is paying rack rates from the hotel companies.
 

bluehende

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I would not say that is fair. The fairest comparison point would be rental rates from weeks owners who list their weeks for rent on sites like redweek as those rates are easy to find and easy to book. Hardly anyone is paying rack rates from the hotel companies.[/QUOTE
A good example of this. I just booked a sale getaway from RCI. I paid 200 for the week. Book through the company it would have cost 900 and the rack rate was close to 1200. The rack rate at these places is set so the sales people can say look at the numbers and the money you save.:rolleyes:

This is extreme but rack rate is certainly not the number to use unless you are trying to prove a bogus point.
 

CalGalTraveler

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A good example of this. I just booked a sale getaway from RCI. I paid 200 for the week. Book through the company it would have cost 900 and the rack rate was close to 1200. The rack rate at these places is set so the sales people can say look at the numbers and the money you save.:rolleyes:

This is extreme but rack rate is certainly not the number to use unless you are trying to prove a bogus point.
Agree with the rack rate. No one pays that. However FWIW...Renters would not have had access to an RCI rate if they didn't own a timeshare. So somewhere in-between. I like the idea of looking at Redweek and using MF as a floor since many owners rent to cover MF.
 
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bluehende

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Agree with the rack rate. No one pays that. However FWIW...Renters would not have had access to an RCI rate if they didn't own a timeshare.
The scope of the discussion is resale vs retail so I assume one is owned one way or the other. I am sure that last minute getaway is not the number to use either. Everybody would use a different number depending on their vacation habits. We do not need or even care about fancy. Our number is closer to the last call number. Other's who insist on luxury ocean front would use a much higher number. With our two ownerships and use of rci sales we will stay for about 50 bucks a night including tax for our 80 or so days in a timeshare this year. Where we stay would not be for everyone, but we have stayed 2 weeks at the beach in a very nice resort not ocean front in OBX. We also have stayed 2 weeks near skiing with one being virtually ski in ski out. It takes a lot of flexibility and standards that are not too high.

There are also ways to access RCI inventory outside of RCI. I used skyauction for years for cheap rentals.
 

brianfox

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Well, this escalated quickly!

Am I the only one getting a feeling that @maxpot46 = @kaio ?
Perhaps Max is the identity that posts the 1% of the time kaio is not working...

Hazing ritual for a newbie TS salesperson was exactly my thoughts.
If not, definitely wrong place to try to educate people and/or make a sales pitch.
On the subject of TS, the average TUG user has >> knowledge than the average TS salesperson.
 

CalGalTraveler

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The scope of the discussion is resale vs retail so I assume one is owned one way or the other. I am sure that last minute getaway is not the number to use either. Everybody would use a different number depending on their vacation habits. We do not need or even care about fancy. Our number is closer to the last call number. Other's who insist on luxury ocean front would use a much higher number. With our two ownerships and use of rci sales we will stay for about 50 bucks a night including tax for our 80 or so days in a timeshare this year. Where we stay would not be for everyone, but we have stayed 2 weeks at the beach in a very nice resort not ocean front in OBX. We also have stayed 2 weeks near skiing with one being virtually ski in ski out. It takes a lot of flexibility and standards that are not too high.

There are also ways to access RCI inventory outside of RCI. I used skyauction for years for cheap rentals.
Fair point. But consider if you did not own a TS yet and were trying to decide between buying a resale vs. developer unit. In that case renting would be an alternative to consider, and you would not have access to RCI - that scenario is what the OP is referring to.

The access to rental rates would be the same for both resale and developer purchase. In addition, most would likely not rent their own TS via RCI but would rent to stay elsewhere.

Redweek or some other mainstream sources are a broader measure that might provide a better comparison to rental market rates, because Redweek rentals also are rented to non-TS buyers making the rental prices more accurately reflect the market.
 
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brianfox

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Please PM me I am interested in your superior product. Hawaii (you heard has hurricanes and volcanoes) must not be in your superior product. Florida and the Caribbean definitely have hurricanes. California has earthquakes and forest fires. Just to list a few premier locations, therefore you must have better. Contact me for a sales meeting.
Fractional ownership - Dark Side of the Moon, Platinum season.
 

Pathways

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Since I normally stick to threads from the major brands, I just caught this thread today.
 

Pathways

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Since I normally stick to threads from the major brands, I just caught this thread today.

You say you can prove it , but honestly I do not believe you. I know of no company that exercises rofr at 50% of retail.

I would say you sell unicorns.
Those timeshares are pathetic. I sell Ferraris, not junk heaps. I can prove that MY COMPANY will buyback MY PRODUCT at an average of 50% of the market value, I demonstrate this proof in my presentation when I talk them through the spreadsheet once I get to the pricing phase at the end.
In case everyone is missing it, OP doesn't say his company uses ROFR at RETAIL prices, but at 50% of MARKET prices. IOW, he sells it for 22K, in two weeks it's worth 2.2k on the open market, and they will buy it back for 1.1k. What a great company that will give their customer 50% of the value they could receive selling it to anyone else!!!
 

amycurl

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Hello,
I suspect from your comments that you work for Hilton. But just in case I'll go through the reasons when to and when not to buy from the developer for all major brands.

Hilton: no developer perks of value (*story about elite bands at the end of this post). Huge discount buying resale outweighs initial purchase points, even in NYC as noted above. I think HGVC is a great product (to purchase resale) because of the flexibility.

Marriott: There is no cheap access to the points system. Some tuggers advocate purchasing a combined week/points package from sales. I think (if you MUST have MVC points) the optimal decision is to buy the smallest possible points package resale and then rent in points for slightly more than the points MF. You would never recover the purchase price of developer points compared to this method unless you absolutely always work the perks (13 month is unreliable, would need to make it up on discounts). For many/most, legacy resale weeks will be the optimal choice. It has less access to their newest "resorts" but those are basically all hotels. If you want a hotel book priceline or similar.

Hyatt: pure points is a tire fire. The legacy points system is complicated but works well, and transfers with resale weeks. Resale weeks are WAY cheaper than developer weeks, even in their top tier locations like Maui. Incentives don't make up the difference.

Vistana: the staroption system is open to resale owners. Also, both westin and Sheraton flex can be purchased resale. Huge discounts available for exactly the same thing. IF someone happens to travel a lot in Marriott hotels (but not so much they have status) AND has the time to travel to Vistana timeshares, it might make sense to buy large Vistana deeds resale. Then trade some in on small upgrade purchases to requalify he remainder. I think this is poor value, but the perk isn't otherwise available.

Holiday Inn: points are available resale at certain resorts. Perks are significant, but so is the purchase price. Many of the "signature" resorts can be substituted by trades to nearby resorts, or into weeks owned by legacy ownerships at the same resort. The value of the perks/incentives doesn't justify buying developer.

Worldmark: the perk for buying developer is called travelshare. The stuff that comes with it can be acquired cheaper by buying it. It also comes with club pass (aka access to leftover wyndham units) if that is a big value buy a wyndham deed, otherwise trade with a wyndham owner who wants worldmark access (I've done this, it works). Super-duper elite level (73k developer) comes with free housekeeping, but that perk can be acquired over 100k cheaper by buying a grandfathered no housekeeping resale. Resales come with everything else at huge discounts. Worldmark has higher resale than almost any other system and the incentives aren't even close.

Wyndham: the perks for buying developer are VIP. The discounts have some value for last minute booking. They recently neutered VIP by cancelling a sales-promoted tactic called cancel-rebook, which is a good reminder that the non-deeded "perks" that come with developer purchases can be changed or cancelled at any time. The deeded stuff that is guaranteed comes with a resale. For the vast, vast majority of people resale is better here. It's way cheaper (95%+) and you have to work the discounts to justify VIP big time. I think it probaby only makes sense if your buy tons of resale points and rent out. Some tuggers got VIP with resale in the past (as far as I know that isn't possible now - if it is I'd love a PM) but you can PIC resale weeks through telesales to get it at lower cost. It still never makes sense to buy at a resort.

Shell - points are free with free usage resale. Developer perks are not meaningful.

Diamond - The Club is only available developer. I think the value here is poor, and the benefits of The Club don't outweigh the massively increased cost of buying retail (or upgrading via retail).

Welk - points are available resale. The cheapness of resale points outweighs incentives/perks.

Bluegreen - resale owners need to be careful which trust/type they buy, but given resales are free/cheap this restriction is minimal, imo.

Breckenridge Grand - resales are way cheaper. Biggest developer perk is day use for skiing. My understanding is that everyone gets it at their original resort so buy resale there if that is important (check this before buying, I don't own here).

Disney - Significant disney related perks for buying direct. Most notably access to the Gold annual pass. Not applicable for FL residents who can get it anyway. If you would otherwise buy annual passes at regular price AND a DVC resale, a small developer purchase may make sense. You should do a spreadsheet of total cost of both options for the life of the contract. If you assume a reasonable rate of return on the extra initial capital it isn't a slam dunk. Anything more than the minimum should be purchased resale.

Grandview - great rci points units available resale at 90% off. Buy that not developer. Not even close.

Anyway, in the spirit of analytical dialogue I've tried to be comprehensive. Since you have so far declined to state who you work for (your prerogative) I've summarized the case for buying resale/developer for every brand I could think of.

If I missed some or you'd like to discuss one of them in further detail let me know. I'd be happy to spreadsheet out the details on any of my assertions. I'm on my phone right now or I would have done a more complete analysis.

**almost forgot - I stayed at HGVC Kings Land last week. Two bedroom unit in phase 1, which I believe is 9600 HGVC points. I traded in through RCI with a timeshare I got for free.

I couldn't help thinking when I saw folks wearing the "elite" wristbands that they looked handy for not carrying a key card. I estimated the value to me at $20 though, not $50,000....
Can the mods make this post itself--by itself--a sticky?? Because it is *brilliant* and would answer a lot of newbie/should-I-rescind questions for every major branded system.
 

KarenP

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Aside from all the wacky numbers, I bought a gold two bedroom Grand Vista for $1500. I lock it off every year and get two, 2 bedroom units at various places, including Ocean Pointe, sometimes even three bedrooms. Beat that. And I graduated summa cum laude with a business degree and then got a JD. (I don't understand how that improves my comments, though).
 

Panina

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I would not say that is fair. The fairest comparison point would be rental rates from weeks owners who list their weeks for rent on sites like redweek as those rates are easy to find and easy to book. Hardly anyone is paying rack rates from the hotel companies.
Us tuggers never pay hotel rack rates but the reality is many people do and that is the ops customer that he can sell to.

I was in Key West the last two weeks and we checked out nice hotels, not fabulous and some were 900-1000 a night, many smaller so so ones in the mid 400 for the night and some are already sold out for next year.

I have friends and family too that pay thousands to stay somewhere for the week.

Not everyone is savvy like us tuggers.
 

LannyPC

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In case everyone is missing it, OP doesn't say his company uses ROFR at RETAIL prices, but at 50% of MARKET prices. IOW, he sells it for 22K, in two weeks it's worth 2.2k on the open market, and they will buy it back for 1.1k. What a great company that will give their customer 50% of the value they could receive selling it to anyone else!!!
Good catch! I'm guessing that not too many (if any) of the marks to whom the sales people try to sell this product would catch that or even know the subtle difference between retail and market prices. This sounds to me like one of those infamous half-truths that TS sales people try to pull over the eyes of potential buyers.
 

brianfox

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Aside from all the wacky numbers, I bought a gold two bedroom Grand Vista for $1500. I lock it off every year and get two, 2 bedroom units at various places, including Ocean Pointe, sometimes even three bedrooms. Beat that. And I graduated summa cum laude with a business degree and then got a JD. (I don't understand how that improves my comments, though).
Well, that's not an "Ivy League Economics Degree" (the caps are important for some reason). So point goes to......nah, I don't get it either.

But I'd be a little concerned if an "Ivy League Economics Degree" results in a job selling timeshare.

Ironic. You can spend a whole lot of money for an economics degree at an ivy league school or a whole lot less at a state college and come out with the same knowledge. Not unlike buying TS retail or resale.
But I digress.
 
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Proof????????? Will your company guarantee????????
Of course not, nor do they need to. I prove propositions by providing evidence of buybacks at that price. Proving that there is sugar in ice cream does not require a guarantee from Ben & Jerry's.
 

breezez

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Well, that's not an "Ivy League Economics Degree" (the caps are important for some reason). So point goes to......nah, I don't get it either.

But I'd be a little concerned if an "Ivy League Economics Degree" results in a job selling timeshare.

Ironic. You can spend a whole lot of money for an economics degree at an ivy league school or a whole lot less at a state college and come out with the same knowledge. Not unlike buying TS retail or resale.
But I digress.
Brianfox - You have me laughing.... I have a PHD - Public High-school Diploma and am sure I’m doing better than most timeshare sale peeps.
 
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