• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 26 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $14,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $14 Million dollars
  • Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    Read more Here
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Sometimes it's better to buy from the brand [says Timeshare Salesman]

silentg

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,706
Reaction score
2,044
Points
449
Location
Central Florida
Resorts Owned
HICV Orange Lake, Fitzpatrick's Castle Holiday Homes, The Pines At Aspen East
Mine are not junk heaps
 

breezez

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2015
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
689
Points
224
Location
Dover, FL
Resorts Owned
WorldMark 39K
Wyndham 406K
RCI Points 196K
Hyatt Pinon Pointe
Hyatt Coconut Plantation
I don't sell with smoke and mirrors... I detest the emotional song-and-dance. I prefer to sell the steak, not the sizzle, and I'm certainly proud of these products because they save people a lot of money even if the deed retains zero equity value (and I have both the spreadsheets and the Goldman Sachs analysis to prove it). The deeds can be transferred via inheritance or buyback, which establishes a floor on their value, with the potential to get more on the resale market, so I'm not sure your argument that they have no value holds water.

I appreciate your anecdotes. Would you say that these were excellent deals, or were they normal by resale standards? Do you consider that product a premium one?
I would say these are pretty standard deals in resell market. If you know the value of what your buying and do your research you can do quite well getting free usage taking on a resell contracts. Example. Find a resell Grandview in points with 2 years of points once you buy it the points go in your account. Plus RCI resets there expiration date. Then you can turn right around and sell with some or none of the points and as long as you hold one RCI points contract you can still use the points you keep. You can actual sell the contract before you every get billed a MF.

My suggestion to you is remove your company name data from you spreadsheet you keep talking about and post a pdf of it on here of it so people can see what your talking about. Then we can show you where we believe you are wrong.

I know you say some of your information you got from ARDA. Know this while ARDA states they exist to protect the owners of Timeshare that is completely BS. They support the timeshare companies. Well I like looking at Timeshare companies financial statements. One thing most of them show in the financial statement is the break down on the revenue for units sold to the expense against this revenue. In most systems Cost of Goods sold is below 15%, Commissions, Marketing and SGA costs are all higher.

As far as what room costs you can not look at rack rates for resorts or hotels. These are not realistic, you must look at MF cost for those stays. Since the bonus they give you is replacing what it would cost you in MF's for those stays.

Example I have exchanged into a summer week in to a Hyatt for a 2 bedroom unit. I used II for the exchange. My resort cost me $680 in MF's for the points required plus $200 exchange fee for a total of $880. I own at this Hyatt location also and a 2 bedroom unit during this week would be $1424 in MF's, If I went to Hyatt's site and tried to book the stay it would cost $4600 and change. But the largest value you can place on a weeks free usage is what MF's would have been in this case $1424.

Last year I stayed at Margarittaville in Puerto Rico. My MF cost to stay there was $1500 for a week. I stayed at the Wyndham Grand Clearwater My MF costs were about $1300 for a week. I just got back for from a stay in Key West at a Hyatt my cost really zero because account I bought had points in it. But normal MF cost $559 for a 3 night stay. I stayed at another Hyatt over Christmas for 4 nights. Again free because new account had points in it. But normal MF would have been $572. I would say my average cost for a weeks vacation in 2 bedroom timeshare is around $1100 for a week and $800 for a 1 bedroom. I stay many times for less and some times for more.
 
Last edited:

bluehende

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
2,427
Reaction score
2,604
Points
423
Because timeshare wins the numbers relative to renting or investing, and as defined one cannot get that particular product on the resale market. Again, I'm not claiming that ALL timeshare deeds are best bought direct, only some.
I certainly can rent for less than the cost of retail ownership. Are you seriously talking a retail purchase as an investment????

And you have defined nothing that cannot be bought on the resale or through renting. And again if I cannot sell my timeshare due to developer stripping value why would I buy it. I guarantee I can rent that timeshare for far less than maintenance plus opportunity costs of the ownership.

I love how you say the numbers work when you made up the numbers. A lot of folks here have asked you for a real set of numbers.
 

bluehende

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
2,427
Reaction score
2,604
Points
423
Those timeshares are pathetic. I sell Ferraris, not junk heaps. I can prove that MY COMPANY will buyback MY PRODUCT at an average of 50% of the market value, I demonstrate this proof in my presentation when I talk them through the spreadsheet once I get to the pricing phase at the end.
You say you can prove it , but honestly I do not believe you. I know of no company that exercises rofr at 50% of retail.

I would say you sell unicorns.
 

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
3,723
Reaction score
1,692
Points
248
the best negotiator I sold to was able to command a FDI equal to 80% of the purchase price ($100k deed), a retarded amount that actually cut my commission in half (but half a commission is better than none, of course).
I am not sure you realize that you are refuting your own arguments. No product that has room for a 80% back in FDI and still give a commission can have any value at all.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
1,489
Points
298
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
[QUOTE="maxpot46, post: 2243933, member: 109561"

I'm not pitching here, I'm engaging in dialogue as a function of increasing my knowledge set.[/QUOTE]

**********

You have found the right place to increase your knowledge .

1) When I first found TUG I truly could not understand why people would own multiple timeshares and systems .

2 ) The how to best use information that TUG members share is also awesome .**

3)I would suggest becoming a member - if you have not done so already .

4 ) Try clicking on “recent post” and reading threads that interest you .

5) Read the really interesting “stuff” information in TUG lounge Forum ; in particular
articles posted by MULTZ321/ Richard .

6)TUG is : Timeshare USERS Group - user is the key word . In a TUG poll -over 50% of members bought their first Timeshare from a developer . There are members who bought & upgraded to Wyndham Platinum before finding TUG . How to better use what we own & share that information with other owners is a key part of this forum .

** Max -I am sure you have repeat customers .
I suggest reading the legacy TUG threads that relate to the system you sell . I bet you will find -“how to better use “ information that you can pass on to an owner of the system .
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,469
Reaction score
8,826
Points
499
Location
South Carolina
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Eagles Nest, Hgvc Surf Club, Hgvc Anderson, Sunrise Bay & Club
I'm focusing on those exceptions (positing that they exist, so thanks for your admission in that regard) from high-end brands with strong ROFRs to protect the brand. I certainly don't deny that there are a lot of timeshares that can be had for free or close to it. But some commit a composition fallacy by extending this fact with an overly broad brush.
I prefer your way of selling versus the emotional hard sell. There are exceptions, that have valid reasons for buying from developers. I have read a few from other tuggers that make sense. I personally would never buy from a developer again.

Only if one is young so they have many years of use, can pay with cash no loan, buys at a place that is hard to trade into, buys in a prime area and prime time and renting or hotel rooms are significantly higher then the average room rental rate that you use, then possibly buying from the developer can make sense but.....if one can buy a resale and have all that, there are many needles in the haystack in resale, just need to be patient and find them. I know because I purchased them.

I purchased my first timeshare from a developer in the 80’s when I was in my early 20’s. I went to 4 timeshare presentations. I remember 3 were emotional presentations and one used analytical data. The analytical data was the presentation that connected with me. I didn’t buy on the spot. Two days later I came back and bought but it was before I knew about resale. Put resale into the analytical data and I would have never purchased.

I can only think of one developer that rofr’s at 50%. I can think of a few that can rofr 50% for only the best weeks.

Curiousity, do you let someone walk before the best deal you can give is on the table? What negotiation factor makes you offer everything you are allowed to? I call that back pocket incentives that you have but your boss doesn’t really want you to give.
 

PamMo

Tug Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
4,122
Reaction score
1,680
Points
398
Location
Missouri
Maxpot46, I appreciate your attempts to educate us, but surely you know that you're offering best case scenario numbers vs our countless real life experiences. (There are a lot of Ivy League graduates here, too.) Every TUG member's response in this thread could be multiplied by 1,000, for all the guests who have posted on TUG about how they can no longer use, afford the rising MF's, or get out of their timeshares. The horrible "timeshare exit" industry exists because so many owners view timeshares as a financial yoke around their necks. It makes NO sense to buy a $22K (or heaven forbid $90K and up) timeshare, only to pay MF's and find out you can't use the weeks. It just adds insult to injury when you discover the timeshare has no value because no one wants it - even though your salesman told you differently.

Getting 6-8 extra weeks in developer perks sounds great when you're wearing rose-colored glasses on vacation. But, it's a rare family who can take that much vacation in the limited time frame those points/weeks have to be used. For many readers who follow TUG, they know how to get great extra weeks for WAY less than $200-250/night.

To end with, as an example of why I don't ever recommend someone buy retail, I've had too many people want to gift me their timeshares after a few years of ownership. It's an awful waste to pay full retail if you'll want out in a few years. I've been offered free Westin 148,100-176,700 StarOptions deeds, 8,400 HGVC points weeks, prime Marriott Platinum weeks, huge Diamond, Bluegreen, etc...packages. I always try to steer them to reputable resellers. You can bet Every. Single. Time. they said they were embarrassed and/or angry they believed their salesperson's promises that their timeshare was a good investment.
 
Last edited:

paxsarah

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
2,040
Reaction score
1,179
Points
373
Location
Athens, GA
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Ocean Boulevard and Flagstaff
NYC is a premium deed, given the real estate values and the fact that there are only 6 timeshare properties in the city (5 if you don't count the infamous lemon Manhattan Club).
My resale Wyndham points can currently book a week during my kids’ spring break in March or their first summer week out of school. I neither needed to buy developer nor even buy a NYC deed to have that access. I know Wyndham is probably not to the level of your undisclosable system, but then again my public ivy tastes are pretty modest.
 

chapjim

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
Reaction score
1,555
Points
399
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Resorts Owned
Wyndham PresRes, Quarter House (4), Resort on Cocoa Beach (4), some others.
OP is kind of full of himself, isn't he? Ivy League econ degree and all his self-professed analytic and dialectic skills coming here to educate all us goobers.

Reminds me of the guy earlier this year calling everybody stupid. Don't remember his User ID or exactly what his schtick was but he had everybody all spun up just like this guy. I guess it is our fate to get a know-it-all every now and then.

Edit: It was kaio with his block chain proposal to disrupt the resale industry. Most of us goobers had no idea what he was talking about.
 
Last edited:

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I would say these are pretty standard deals in resell market. If you know the value of what your buying and do your research you can do quite well getting free usage taking on a resell contracts. Example. Find a resell Grandview in points with 2 years of points once you buy it the points go in your account. Plus RCI resets there expiration date. Then you can turn right around and sell with some or none of the points and as long as you hold one RCI points contract you can still use the points you keep. You can actual sell the contract before you every get billed a MF.

My suggestion to you is remove your company name data from you spreadsheet you keep talking about and post a pdf of it on here of it so people can see what your talking about. Then we can show you where we believe you are wrong.

I know you say some of your information you got from ARDA. Know this while ARDA states they exist to protect the owners of Timeshare that is completely BS. They support the timeshare companies. Well I like looking at Timeshare companies financial statements. One thing most of them show in the financial statement is the break down on the revenue for units sold to the expense against this revenue. In most systems Cost of Goods sold is below 15%, Commissions, Marketing and SGA costs are all higher.

As far as what room costs you can not look at rack rates for resorts or hotels. These are not realistic, you must look at MF cost for those stays. Since the bonus they give you is replacing what it would cost you in MF's for those stays.

Example I have exchanged into a summer week in to a Hyatt for a 2 bedroom unit. I used II for the exchange. My resort cost me $680 in MF's for the points required plus $200 exchange fee for a total of $880. I own at this Hyatt location also and a 2 bedroom unit during this week would be $1424 in MF's, If I went to Hyatt's site and tried to book the stay it would cost $4600 and change. But the largest value you can place on a weeks free usage is what MF's would have been in this case $1424.

Last year I stayed at Margarittaville in Puerto Rico. My MF cost to stay there was $1500 for a week. I stayed at the Wyndham Grand Clearwater My MF costs were about $1300 for a week. I just got back for from a stay in Key West at a Hyatt my cost really zero because account I bought had points in it. But normal MF cost $559 for a 3 night stay. I stayed at another Hyatt over Christmas for 4 nights. Again free because new account had points in it. But normal MF would have been $572. I would say my average cost for a weeks vacation in 2 bedroom timeshare is around $1100 for a week and $800 for a 1 bedroom. I stay many times for less and some times for more.
I actually wrote an article showing many spreadsheets with different variables (using the ARDA industry averages and not any of my brand's products) and posted it here. It was immediately removed... I guess I somehow that violated the forum rules. I'm not interested in potentially jeapordizing my job by posting real figures here... while the chances are remote, they are not zero. I'd be happy to send you a copy if you give me an email.

The MF's you quote seem very high to me. Even the least value MF in that range at my own company would deliver 2.5 weeks in high season.

If the guest is renting and does not own, it's perfectly fair to use the rack rate as they have no access to MF rates (correct?).
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I am not sure you realize that you are refuting your own arguments. No product that has room for a 80% back in FDI and still give a commission can have any value at all.
We can because of the financial beauty of bonus weeks/points as a FDI. They cost nothing on the balance sheet of the company (the added usage must merely be figured into availability algorithms), but they do represent a value (opportunity cost of renting) on the balance sheet of the owner. So they can be used to strengthen the owner's value proposition very strongly without costing the corporation, a lovely win-win.
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
[QUOTE="maxpot46, post: 2243933, member: 109561"

I'm not pitching here, I'm engaging in dialogue as a function of increasing my knowledge set.
**********

You have found the right place to increase your knowledge .

1) When I first found TUG I truly could not understand why people would own multiple timeshares and systems .

2 ) The how to best use information that TUG members share is also awesome .**

3)I would suggest becoming a member - if you have not done so already .

4 ) Try clicking on “recent post” and reading threads that interest you .

5) Read the really interesting “stuff” information in TUG lounge Forum ; in particular
articles posted by MULTZ321/ Richard .

6)TUG is : Timeshare USERS Group - user is the key word . In a TUG poll -over 50% of members bought their first Timeshare from a developer . There are members who bought & upgraded to Wyndham Platinum before finding TUG . How to better use what we own & share that information with other owners is a key part of this forum .

** Max -I am sure you have repeat customers .
I suggest reading the legacy TUG threads that relate to the system you sell . I bet you will find -“how to better use “ information that you can pass on to an owner of the system .[/QUOTE]

Much obliged!
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
I prefer your way of selling versus the emotional hard sell. There are exceptions, that have valid reasons for buying from developers. I have read a few from other tuggers that make sense. I personally would never buy from a developer again.

Only if one is young so they have many years of use, can pay with cash no loan, buys at a place that is hard to trade into, buys in a prime area and prime time and renting or hotel rooms are significantly higher then the average room rental rate that you use, then possibly buying from the developer can make sense but.....if one can buy a resale and have all that, there are many needles in the haystack in resale, just need to be patient and find them. I know because I purchased them.

I purchased my first timeshare from a developer in the 80’s when I was in my early 20’s. I went to 4 timeshare presentations. I remember 3 were emotional presentations and one used analytical data. The analytical data was the presentation that connected with me. I didn’t buy on the spot. Two days later I came back and bought but it was before I knew about resale. Put resale into the analytical data and I would have never purchased.

I can only think of one developer that rofr’s at 50%. I can think of a few that can rofr 50% for only the best weeks.

Curiousity, do you let someone walk before the best deal you can give is on the table? What negotiation factor makes you offer everything you are allowed to? I call that back pocket incentives that you have but your boss doesn’t really want you to give.
Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to handle the closing. I did save a deal once by blasting them with a max FDI, but I got into a lot of trouble for it.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
1,489
Points
298
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
My resale Wyndham points can currently book a week during my kids’ spring break in March or their first summer week out of school. I neither needed to buy developer nor even buy a NYC deed to have that access. I know Wyndham is probably not to the level of your undisclosable system, but then again my public ivy tastes are pretty modest.
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
Maxpot46, I appreciate your attempts to educate us, but surely you know that you're offering best case scenario numbers vs our countless real life experiences. (There are a lot of Ivy League graduates here, too.) Every TUG member's response in this thread could be multiplied by 1,000, for all the guests who have posted on TUG about how they can no longer use, afford the rising MF's, or get out of their timeshares. The horrible "timeshare exit" industry exists because so many owners view timeshares as a financial yoke around their necks. It makes NO sense to buy a $22K (or heaven forbid $90K and up) timeshare, only to pay MF's and find out you can't use the weeks. It just adds insult to injury when you discover the timeshare has no value because no one wants it - even though your salesman told you differently.

Getting 6-8 extra weeks in developer perks sounds great when you're wearing rose-colored glasses on vacation. But, it's a rare family who can take that much vacation in the limited time frame those points/weeks have to be used. For many readers who follow TUG, they know how to get great extra weeks for WAY less than $200-250/night.

To end with, as an example of why I don't ever recommend someone buy retail, I've had too many people want to gift me their timeshares after a few years of ownership. It's an awful waste to pay full retail if you'll want out in a few years. I've been offered free Westin 148,100-176,700 StarOptions deeds, 8,400 HGVC points weeks, prime Marriott Platinum weeks, huge Diamond, Bluegreen, etc...packages. I always try to steer them to reputable resellers. You can bet Every. Single. Time. they said they were embarrassed and/or angry they believed their salesperson's promises that their timeshare was a good investment.
I'm not looking to educate anyone, I'm looking to learn and not to compare resumes. My method is to throw out a proposition and engage in dialectic. I'm very good at ignoring trolls and staying on topic.

Yes, many timeshares suck, and it would be awesome if owners could dump them. I sell a premium product.

Timeshare wins the numbers even if the equity value of the deed goes to zero, but it does push the breakeven point to 15-20 years (typically with standard FDI and accounting for a modest equity value, my programs have a breakeven in the 2-5 year range, and with max FDI the owner can come out ahead from day 1).
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
My resale Wyndham points can currently book a week during my kids’ spring break in March or their first summer week out of school. I neither needed to buy developer nor even buy a NYC deed to have that access. I know Wyndham is probably not to the level of your undisclosable system, but then again my public ivy tastes are pretty modest.
In all honesty, Wyndham is not highly regarded at my company, especially by the ones who used to work there.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
1,489
Points
298
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
Sorry - didn’t mean quote / couldn’t delete
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
OP is kind of full of himself, isn't he? Ivy League econ degree and all his self-professed analytic and dialectic skills coming here to educate all us goobers.

Reminds me of the guy earlier this year calling everybody stupid. Don't remember his User ID or exactly what his schtick was but he had everybody all spun up just like this guy. I guess it is our fate to get a know-it-all every now and then.
I'm not the sort who resorts to name-calling or insult. This is dialectic, and I care only for the exchange of ideas and information.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
1,489
Points
298
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Mayan Palace Regency
Taranova
In all honesty, Wyndham is not highly regarded at my company, especially by the ones who used to work there.
.
From a sales member point of view - that makes sense .

*******

TUG members who own Wyndham like it for the broad selection of resort locations and the flexibility of the points system for use .

Wyndham has about 500,000 owners .

The ex- Wyndham salesperson who started a similar thread last year -mentioned that he had kept his rescind rate below 11% by selling the product & giving the customer “straight “formation not lies . He implied that below 11% was a very good number at Wyndham .
 
Last edited:

DannyTS

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2018
Messages
3,723
Reaction score
1,692
Points
248
We can because of the financial beauty of bonus weeks/points as a FDI. They cost nothing on the balance sheet of the company (the added usage must merely be figured into availability algorithms), but they do represent a value (opportunity cost of renting) on the balance sheet of the owner. So they can be used to strengthen the owner's value proposition very strongly without costing the corporation, a lovely win-win.
Of course there is a cost to the developer for all the "free" weeks. I assume that, at the minimum, the developer pays maintenance fees for those weeks.
 

slip

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
5,276
Reaction score
4,082
Points
399
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Resorts Owned
Pono Kai, 20 wks: Maui Schooner, 1.5 wks; WaveCrest Condo, Molokai, HI
It’s too easy to talk vaguely. You come in here and make a statement but it can’t be discussed because you keep all the information that we need to discuss it to yourself, saying for professional reasons. If you don’t give specifics we can’t look into it and there is nothing to discuss.
 

chapjim

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
Reaction score
1,555
Points
399
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Resorts Owned
Wyndham PresRes, Quarter House (4), Resort on Cocoa Beach (4), some others.
It’s too easy to talk vaguely. You come in here and make a statement but it can’t be discussed because you keep all the information that we need to discuss it to yourself, saying for professional reasons. If you don’t give specifics we can’t look into it and there is nothing to discuss.
Agreed. He says "this is dialectic" but he hides the ball.

Without specifics, OP is making bare assertions, which anyone can do.
 

maxpot46

Guest
Joined
Aug 22, 2018
Messages
95
Reaction score
7
Points
8
It’s too easy to talk vaguely. You come in here and make a statement but it can’t be discussed because you keep all the information that we need to discuss it to yourself, saying for professional reasons. If you don’t give specifics we can’t look into it and there is nothing to discuss.
Others have managed to make strong contributions despite that. If you are unable, there is indeed nothing to discuss.
 

slip

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
Messages
5,276
Reaction score
4,082
Points
399
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Resorts Owned
Pono Kai, 20 wks: Maui Schooner, 1.5 wks; WaveCrest Condo, Molokai, HI
Others have managed to make strong contributions despite that. If you are unable, there is indeed nothing to discuss.
Strong arguments that you immediately shut down because your product is better. Come on, if your on my side of the fence, your thinking the same as me, your just talking like a salesman.
 
Top