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Social distancing and shelter in place - working or not?

dioxide45

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The problem with this, according to the article I was reading, is that it will incentivize people to be unemployed. The article gave an example of when unemployment benefits were enhanced during the Great Recession. The article said that the unemployment rate did not go down until after the enhanced benefits went away. If you were a low paid employee, you would be thrilled to earn more money by staying home. Plus they are getting the stimulus checks. Many will still default on rent and other bills just because they can. I have heard of many people on my Facebook thread who are already asking for reduced rent or no rent, even though they do not need it yet. On the other hand, many people will be worse off with unemployment. I feel like the government is just throwing money out there and hoping something sticks. I hate that during these crises that people take advantage of each other. It is “me vs them”. They say I need to think about my family and that justifies talking from others, who also have a family.
There was an amendment that they tried to include in the bill to change the unemployment benefit so someone couldn't make more on unemployment than if they were employed. It was thought that the wording in the bill was a drafting error. The amendment failed. You can research this more if you are so inclined. Talking about it here would become political.

As I also understand, the additional unemployment benefit is only for four months, so we shouldn't see any long term issue with this like during the Great Depression as you mentioned above.
 

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Devils advocate: As taxpayers why are we handing $1200 checks to people in rural/low disease areas who are not impacted by corona and whose state and local governments don't see the need to put in place SIP measures? Why are these people getting a free government handout and can delay paying their taxes etc. when they are not significantly affected, still have their jobs and can go about their daily business?
I hear you and the Libertarian part of me agrees. But I think its because our economy is national and when there is a slowdown everyone is eligible to be hurt. The goal with the bill is to carry people through the pandemic and get them intact to the other side without causing long term damage that will impact everyone. I'm more upset about people getting a $24 per hour for unemployment when they initially earned half of that. You are going to see situations where essential workers like those in Grocery Stores and Home Healthcare are working, putting themselves at risk and will be making less than those that used to work in restaurants and retail and are now unemployed. That creates a negative incentive and a moral hazard that will be hard to undo.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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FWIW -

In my opinion, one good result from this situation would be preparation of an amendment to the US Constitution to address the powers of the Federal government and the states during an epidemic/pandemic situation. This really isn't addressed by the Constitution, so we've essentially been winging it - sort of like a war, but there hasn't any been any formal declaration of war.

Preparation of such an amendment in Congress and submittal to states would trigger national policy discussion on the issue, and conveniently, would exactly align with the Founder's intent and procedure for addressing such isses.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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When your printing two $$ Trillion on the magic money printing press - all these“details issues” are insignificant in the goal of keeping the economic wheel turning .

The worldwide $$$ printing presses need to fire up at maximum / or the world could go,
Mad Max - and we will be using toilet paper as wampum beads.

Remember the 1981 documentary by John Carpenter
“Escape from New York “
Ernest Borgnine - Kurt Russell
 

dioxide45

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FWIW -

In my opinion, one good result from this situation would be preparation of an amendment to the US Constitution to address the powers of the Federal government and the states during an epidemic/pandemic situation. This really isn't addressed by the Constitution, so we've essentially been winging it - sort of like a war, but there hasn't any been any formal declaration of war.

Preparation of such an amendment in Congress and submittal to states would trigger national policy discussion on the issue, and conveniently, would exactly align with the Founder's intent and procedure for addressing such isses.
I don't see any of the states willing to go along with amending the constitution to grant additional powers to the federal government and take it away from the states. Technically, the 10th amendment covers this already? No?
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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I don't see any of the states willing to go along with amending the constitution to grant additional powers to the federal government and take it away from the states. Technically, the 10th amendment covers this already? No?
After the Supreme Court decision in Wickard vs Filburn established, in effect, that a citizen's decision to grow strawberries on his or her deck for personal consumption is an act of interstate commerce and is subject to regulation under the interstate commerce clause, I'm not sure what relevance the 10th amendment has to anything practical. I would say that is clear, for example, that orders by states to require shutdown of non-essential services affects interstate commerce, and thus all actions taken by state governments in response to the pandemic are subject to Federal preemption. Under Wickard vs. Filburn, does the Federal government not have a the power to negate purchase of ventilators by a given state and redirect those ventilators to another state? If Filburn's decision to grow his own wheat to feed his cattle is interstate commerce, then is there anything any person or state/local government can do that has any nexus, however slight, to interstate commerce isn't subject to Federal regulation?

So I suggest that an amendment to the Constitution would actually be beneficial in terms of clarifying/defining the scope of Federal oversight. IMHO, it would actually result in a devolution of power from the Federal government to the states.
 

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After the Supreme Court decision in Wickard vs Filburn established, in effect, that a citizen's decision to grow strawberries on his or her deck for personal consumption is an act of interstate commerce and is subject to regulation under the interstate commerce clause, I'm not sure what relevance the 10th amendment has to anything practical. I would say that is clear, for example, that orders by states to require shutdown of non-essential services affects interstate commerce, and thus all actions taken by state governments in response to the pandemic are subject to Federal preemption. Under Wickard vs. Filburn, does the Federal government not have a the power to negate purchase of ventilators by a given state and redirect those ventilators to another state? If Filburn's decision to grow his own wheat to feed his cattle is interstate commerce, then is there anything any person or state/local government can do that has any nexus, however slight, to interstate commerce isn't subject to Federal regulation?

So I suggest that an amendment to the Constitution would actually be beneficial in terms of clarifying/defining the scope of Federal oversight. IMHO, it would actually result in a devolution of power from the Federal government to the states.

OK ... I'll ask my lawyer son about the potential of an amendment to the US constitution that would deal with this pandemic and the "devolution of power from the Federal Government to the states" and ask him about the chances of this potential amendment becoming law ......
.
or maybe not :)
 
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OK. I know this is Tin Foil Hat stuff. But its really just to weird to ignore. In 2010 The Rockefeller Foundation wrote a White Paper (inset below). It includes an interesting section on how a future pandemic involving China would be used to bring about global authoritarian control. Its called "Lock Step. A world of tighter top-down government control and more authoritarian leadership..." It includes gems like this: “new influenza strain… infects nearly 20 percent of the global population… killing 8 million in just seven months…” The Think Tank, wrote that this would be an Influenza Pandemic set in the year 2020.

You really can't make this stuff up.

 

bbodb1

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I am not sure your premise is correct. The big expenses of government are defense, SS, and Medicare. Those apply equally to rural and urban. Also the highest rates of poverty that then kick in all the social net are rural areas. A good way, but not the only way, to look at it is the return on tax dollars. This article shows a trend toward urban areas getting screwed but this is a hard calculation.

The expenses may be equally allocated but the benefits are not. For example, a military base brings many jobs to an area (both military and civilian) plus many surrounding businesses that support the base. Those benefits do NOT flow to the rural areas yet the cost of that base is equally born by those both urban and rural (and in between). The same can be said of the many government office buildings/functions.

Where I do agree here is this calculation would be intense and very hard to ensure its accuracy..
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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OK ... I'll ask my lawyer son about the potential of an amendment to the US constitution that would deal with this pandemic and the "devolution of power from the Federal Government to the states" and ask him about the chances of this potential amendment becoming law ......
.
or maybe not :)
Even if it doesn't become an amendment it triggers important national debate, as with the Equal Rights Amendment.
 

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OK. I know this is Tin Foil Hat stuff. But its really just to weird to ignore. In 2010 The Rockefeller Foundation wrote a White Paper (inset below). It includes an interesting section on how a future pandemic involving China would be used to bring about global authoritarian control. Its called "Lock Step. A world of tighter top-down government control and more authoritarian leadership..." It includes gems like this: “new influenza strain… infects nearly 20 percent of the global population… killing 8 million in just seven months…” The Think Tank, wrote that this would be an Influenza Pandemic set in the year 2020.

You really can't make this stuff up.
yeah, tin foil hat stuff .... or maybe Bill Gates was right in that TED talk
governments need to cooperate and preparation and testing is important .... naaahhh :(
 

bbodb1

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I have heard that states like California pay more into the federal government than we get in return.
I have read this as well, but IIRC the basis for these claims is limited to dollars paid in vs dollars paid out.
The presence of government in an urban area brings economic benefits to that area that are not shared throughout the state or region necessarily.
But on the plus side, the presence of government in an area can bring benefits across state lines.
 

bbodb1

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The problem with this, according to the article I was reading, is that it will incentivize people to be unemployed. The article gave an example of when unemployment benefits were enhanced during the Great Recession. The article said that the unemployment rate did not go down until after the enhanced benefits went away. If you were a low paid employee, you would be thrilled to earn more money by staying home. Plus they are getting the stimulus checks. Many will still default on rent and other bills just because they can. I have heard of many people on my Facebook thread who are already asking for reduced rent or no rent, even though they do not need it yet. On the other hand, many people will be worse off with unemployment. I feel like the government is just throwing money out there and hoping something sticks. I hate that during these crises that people take advantage of each other. It is “me vs them”. They say I need to think about my family and that justifies talking from others, who also have a family.
Unfortunately, this is how it is. You've also just described the Protestant Ethic and Max Weber says hello.
Our society has become too focused on how much one can achieve (collect, amass, control, etc) as opposed to how much benefit (good) one can create.
Even worse, the corporate chieftans have taken greed to exponential levels and it seems to be the new norm.
Our society has changed much for the worse over the last 50 years.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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Remember the 1981 documentary by John Carpenter
“Escape from New York “
Ernest Borgnine - Kurt Russell
...about global authoritarian control. Its called "Lock Step. A world of tighter top-down government control and more authoritarian leadership..."
You really can't make this stuff up.
Now they are talking about a force quarantine of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. The problem is that warning has been given and now all they will have people start to flee.
See- Escape from New York - was a prescient documentary

Next week’s documentary has Mel Gibson as a gentleman named Max
 
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Non essensial commerce employs a lot of people. Sure you can keep handing money out to people, but when does it stop? If there are no companies left to hire them you end up having to pay people indefinitely. If the companies come out healthy on the back side of this, they will be able to reemploy the staff and the employees won't have to live off the government dole forever. The goal with providing stimulus to small and big business is to try to prevent long term high unemployment numbers. Unemployment during the Great Depression was 25%, the goal here is to avoid that. We can't have people living off the government long term, the companies need to survive so we can try to prevent that.
We are now largely a services economy which is essentially what is being referenced as non-essential commerce. If the fail, we will all suffer economically.
 

PcflEZFlng

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Unfortunately, this is how it is. You've also just described the Protestant Ethic and Max Weber says hello.
Our society has become too focused on how much one can achieve (collect, amass, control, etc) as opposed to how much benefit (good) one can create.
Even worse, the corporate chieftans have taken greed to exponential levels and it seems to be the new norm.
Our society has changed much for the worse over the last 50 years.
I agree. I encourage everyone I can to read Tailspin: The People and Forces Behind America's Fifty-Year Fall - and Those Fighting to Reverse It, by Steven Brill. A must read, in my opinion.
 

bluehende

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The expenses may be equally allocated but the benefits are not. For example, a military base brings many jobs to an area (both military and civilian) plus many surrounding businesses that support the base. Those benefits do NOT flow to the rural areas yet the cost of that base is equally born by those both urban and rural (and in between). The same can be said of the many government office buildings/functions.

Where I do agree here is this calculation would be intense and very hard to ensure its accuracy..
Most military bases are in rural areas. Or at least used to be. How about farm subsidies. Rural areas have their benefits that do not get to urban areas too. I get very little from the feds in our urban area. If you look at the stats rural areas get more per capita in medicaid, welfare , and food stamps per capita. That is why if you look at the link I supplied it shows rural states get more money than urban states. Can you link to any data that shows a different calculation that disagrees with this.
 

CO skier

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[QUOTE="T_R_Oglodyte, post: 2419105, member: 280"
In my opinion, one good result from this situation would be preparation of an amendment to the US Constitution to address the powers of the Federal government and the states during an epidemic/pandemic situation.
[/QUOTE]
The authors of the Constitution lived through the epidemics and disease of the 18th century. Would they have sacrificed States Rights on an altar of "illusion of containment" and "quarantines" that are not proving to be quarantines at all? In a word, "No."

"Quarantining" the Diamond Princess cruise ship just exposed and infected more passengers.

Disembarking and isolating infected passengers was the answer, but it was a couple of weeks too late.
 
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goaliedave

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Unfortunately, this is how it is. You've also just described the Protestant Ethic and Max Weber says hello.
Our society has become too focused on how much one can achieve (collect, amass, control, etc) as opposed to how much benefit (good) one can create.
Even worse, the corporate chieftans have taken greed to exponential levels and it seems to be the new norm.
Our society has changed much for the worse over the last 50 years.
Yup. Easy to see for the rest of the world, who continuously laughs and rolls eyes at USA's uniqueness and examining trees instead of forests.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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In my opinion, one good result from this situation would be preparation of an amendment to the US Constitution to address the powers of the Federal government and the states during an epidemic/pandemic situation.
The authors of the Constitution lived through the epidemics and disease of the 18th century. Would they have sacrificed States Rights on an altar of "illusion of containment" and "quarantines" that are not proving to be quarantines at all? In a word, "No."

"Quarantining" the Diamond Princess cruise ship just exposed and infected more passengers.

Disembarking and isolating infected passengers was the answer, but it was a couple of weeks too late.
The authors of the Constitution also lived more that 150 years before the germ theory of disease. They may have been wise, but we can't give the credit for understanding things they didn't know. It's similar to warfare. They lived in a time where warfare involved one country marshaling an army and advancing on another county, with declarations of war, capturing the other countries capitol, etc.. They did not envision a situation in which, for example, a terrorist group not affiliated with any organized government, mounts a concerted attack on the United States. What does a declaration of war mean in that circumstance? Whatever it might mean, it's not within the parameters of the Constitution.

The founding fathers were smart enough, though, to recognize that evolving conditions might require changes to the Constitution. So they created a process for amending the Constitution. Hence my suggestion that perhaps we should consider amending the Constitution to reflect what is known now that wasn't known in the late 17th century.
 
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