Should I Rescind?

[Stricky]

Check out this place to get DVC info: http://mouseowners.com/forums/

DVC points cost between $75 and $100 a point (ballpark) depending on the resort you buy. A lot of people use a 3 year plan with DVC.

Say you buy 50 points. You bank the first year, the second year you now have 100 points and you can borrow a year in advance making it 150 points. So every three years you go on a nice Disney trip with the points you bank/use/borrow. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Sophie]

Check out this place to get DVC info: http://mouseowners.com/forums/

DVC points cost between $75 and $100 a point (ballpark) depending on the resort you buy. A lot of people use a 3 year plan with DVC.

Say you buy 50 points. You bank the first year, the second year you now have 100 points and you can borrow a year in advance making it 150 points. So every three years you go on a nice Disney trip with the points you bank/use/borrow. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks a lot, Stricky.
Great link to learn all about DVC points. It seems like the ideal option for my short-term plans and a good start for my vacation planning portfolio. And they have a resale market! :whoopie:

 

[DanCali]

Thanks a lot, Stricky.
Great link to learn all about DVC points. It seems like the ideal option for my short-term plans and a good start for my vacation planning portfolio. And they have a resale market! :whoopie:

Not familiar much with Disney but from what I know these are RTU (Right to Use) which expire in about 30 years. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to understand that RTU ownership is guaranteed to be worth zero where the RTU expires (meaning that even if MFs are constant, resale values will go down over time). So all that stuff about deeding it to your kids you heard at Starwood does not apply - you ae literally prepaying for your vacations for the next 30 years.

 

[Sophie]

Not familiar much with Disney but from what I know these are RTU (Right to Use) which expire in about 30 years. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to understand that RTU ownership is guaranteed to be worth zero where the RTU expires (meaning that even if MFs are constant, resale values will go down over time). So all that stuff about deeding it to your kids you heard at Starwood does not apply - you ae literally prepaying for your vacations for the next 30 years.

And I imagine that if you buy on the resale market, it is whatever time is left on the initial contract, right?
BTW, I have lived in Miami since 2000 -- travelled regularly to South Florida since 1991 prior to moving down there, and Nov 2009 was my first time to WDW, because my daughter turned 4. So, I do not see myself being a Disney addict, after my kids grow up. Therefore, a RTU with a shorter period, if accompanied with a lower initial cost, would be fine with me.

 

[DanCali]

And I imagine that if you buy on the resale market, it is whatever time is left on the initial contract, right?
BTW, I have lived in Miami since 2000 -- travelled regularly to South Florida since 1991 prior to moving fown there, and Nov 2009 was my time to WDW, because my daughter turned 4. So, I do not see myself being a Disney addict, after my kids grow up. Therefore, a RTU with a shorter period, if accompanied with a lower initial cost, would be fine with me.

Yes, it's whatever is left on the initial contract. Shorter period should be accompanied by lower cost, if everything else is equal. I imagine where you buy also makes a difference in terms of the quality of the accomodations.

My main point was that you should expect to lose money over time on this ownership because it is essentially part of the deal. Ten years from now a potential buyer will not get the same number of use years you had so they should pay less (unless, for example, the benefit of owning versus renting changes dramatically in the owner's favor in that period).

 

[timeos2]

It's guaranteed to be zero value in the future

Not familiar much with Disney but from what I know these are RTU (Right to Use) which expire in about 30 years. Nothing wrong with that, but it's important to understand that RTU ownership is guaranteed to be worth zero where the RTU expires (meaning that even if MFs are constant, resale values will go down over time). So all that stuff about deeding it to your kids you heard at Starwood does not apply - you ae literally prepaying for your vacations for the next 30 years.

Correct and fees do not stay constant, are already some of the highest around and usually go even higher each year. The downward pressure on resale price value has been great the past few years and is getting stronger as credit for timeshares - even DVC now has serious problems with getting credit - is tough to impossible to obtain. Assume prices are going down and what you pay today will look like too much in only a month or two. You should also study renting as the real value in timeshares as a user is currently in that area. Many, even DVC, are offered for rent at or only slightly above the cost of annual fees and you don't have to pay any upfront purchase price when renting. And by renting you can often obtain the exact resort/time you desire far easier than playing the owners reservation game months in advance.

Buy if you want to use the vacation time and it is a value to you. Don't buy if you plan to use outside of DVC (trade value, while high, isn't a good deal for the buyer) or if you think it will hold the resale value of today. It won't. There are no exceptions to rapidly declining resale prices anymore.

 

[Sophie]

Correct and fees do not stay constant, are already some of the highest around and usually go even higher each year. The downward pressure on resale price value has been great the past few years and is getting stronger as credit for timeshares - even DVC now has serious problems with getting credit - is tough to impossible to obtain. Assume prices are going down and what you pay today will look like too much in only a month or two. You should also study renting as the real value in timeshares as a user is currently in that area. Many, even DVC, are offered for rent at or only slightly above the cost of annual fees and you don't have to pay any upfront purchase price when renting. And by renting you can often obtain the exact resort/time you desire far easier than playing the owners reservation game months in advance.

Buy if you want to use the vacation time and it is a value to you. Don't buy if you plan to use outside of DVC (trade value, while high, isn't a good deal for the buyer) or if you think it will hold the resale value of today. It won't. There are no exceptions to rapidly declining resale prices anymore.

Checked renting offers on MouseOwners.com. Quite pricey compared to promotional hotel rates.

 

[timeos2]

Checked renting offers on MouseOwners.com. Quite pricey compared to promotional hotel rates.

DVC units are not hotel rooms. That is not a direct comparison in accommodations. If you are willing to settle for hotel rooms then even thinking about DVC as a purchase is silly. The cost will be far higher.

 

[Sophie]

DVC units are not hotel rooms. That is not a direct comparison in accommodations. If you are willing to settle for hotel rooms then even thinking about DVC as a purchase is silly. The cost will be far higher.

I might not be using the right terminology. I am not talking about a hotel room, but direct rates from the resort or hotel. For example, I just got a 2BR suite at the HGVC on International Drive for $153/night (total cost, taxes included = $516.38) for Labor Day weekend. For the same weekend (Adventure Season = lowest # of points), based on 2009 DVC point chart for the VWL, I would need 150 points. Points are currently for rent at $9 to $13 per point. So I would pay twice as much to stay at the Villas at Wilderness Lodge, renting from a DVC owner. Let me know if I am wrong.

 

[timeos2]

DVC is the ultimate in boutique stays - if you don't have to have it its a waste of $

I might not be using the right terminology. I am not talking about a hotel room, but direct rates from the resort or hotel. For example, I just got a 2BR suite at the HGVC on International Drive for $153/night (total cost, taxes included = $516.38) for Labor Day weekend. For the same weekend (Adventure Season = lowest # of points), based on 2009 DVC point chart for the VWL, I would need 150 points. Points are currently for rent at $9 to $13 per point. So I would pay twice as much to stay at the Villas at Wilderness Lodge, renting from a DVC owner. Let me know if I am wrong.

That is comparing off site timeshares (much nicer units & far more space than hotels and/or most Disney resorts) to DVC prices. If you don't HAVE to be on site (inside the gates of Disney surrounded 24/7 by everything Disney) then you are wasting money on rental or purchase of DVC. The ONLY reason to own it is if you aren't happy being anywhere else. If you find HGVC fits your needs, you like it for amenities, cost, size, etc then you are far better off forgetting about DVC. Maybe you'd want to buy a timeshare but even that, at least for the next few years, may not make sense when you can rent it for the annual fees or less from many owners. Again without up fornt cost to you. If you have a specific resort you wish to use at a busy time then maybe it would make sense to buy in to assure that you have that access but thats just about the only reason to buy right now.

 

[Ken555]

Don't forget II Getaways in Orlando are plentiful (though I'm not sure of holiday weekends)... we had a 2-bed Marriott unit for ~$500 a couple of years ago. Why buy when renting a week for less than MF, especially if you don't need to be on-property.

 

[Sophie]

That is comparing off site timeshares (much nicer units & far more space than hotels and/or most Disney resorts) to DVC prices. If you don't HAVE to be on site (inside the gates of Disney surrounded 24/7 by everything Disney) then you are wasting money on rental or purchase of DVC. The ONLY reason to own it is if you aren't happy being anywhere else. If you find HGVC fits your needs, you like it for amenities, cost, size, etc then you are far better off forgetting about DVC. Maybe you'd want to buy a timeshare but even that, at least for the next few years, may not make sense when you can rent it for the annual fees or less from many owners. Again without up fornt cost to you. If you have a specific resort you wish to use at a busy time then maybe it would make sense to buy in to assure that you have that access but thats just about the only reason to buy right now.

Hi John,
I gave up on staying on property because of the high cost and low availability of properties of interest when we were planning to go there. My 4 y.o. does not know better and my husband and I don't care being immersed in the Disney world, so it has become a non-issue. We want to try the Wilderness Lodge some day, but we would not make it a pilgrimage.
Thank you for your helpful comments.

 

[Sophie]

Don't forget II Getaways in Orlando are plentiful (though I'm not sure of holiday weekends)... we had a 2-bed Marriott unit for ~$500 a couple of years ago. Why buy when renting a week for less than MF, especially if you don't need to be on-property.

Hi Ken,

Are getaways 7-day stays? Being from Miami, FL, my husband does not use his vacation time to go to Orlando. Hence, the 3-nt weekends.
I will continue standard booking and browsing the rental market for this year, while learning and exploring possibilities of purchasing TS on the resale market. Based on all the input, I want to learn more about HGVC and read about Bluegreen and Marriott.
Thank you for your feedback.

 

[LisaRex]

Hi Ken,

Are getaways 7-day stays? Being from Miami, FL, my husband does not use his vacation time to go to Orlando. Hence, the 3-nt weekends.

Yes, Getaways are for 7 days.

If you want less than a weekly stay in the Starwood network, you have to wait until the 90 day window opens up. An additional strike against that system for you. In fact, I'm not sure any TS system would work well given that scenario.

 

[Sophie]

Update on Starwood rescission letter

I got a phone call from Starwood Corporate yesterday. It was a very courteous lady, excellent listener. She acknowledged receipt of my cancellation letter and asked me if I could give the reason why I exercised my right to rescind. I gave her all my reasons. She acknowledged them as being good reasons for rescinding, based on my experience.

She also answered questions about resale vs. developer, mandatory vs voluntary resorts, and ability to requalify a secondary market purchase. As we discussed Starwood's position on making it harder to access the SVN for resale owners, she indicated that the current conditions to requalify is to buy additional property from the developer for at least $20,000.00 to $40,000.00, depending on the type of property.

She said that potential buyers can actually call Starwood corporate agents directly with all their questions about Starwood TS, and receive more detailed documentation so that they can study the topic at their own pace, without the pressure of a presentation sales agent. Finally, she mentioned that there is no penalty for refusing or cancelling a sale at or after a presentation, because one does not like to buy under pressure.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi Sophie! I'm glad it's going well for you!

Take your time - prices are not going up and you want to make a decision you are 100% happy with, if you do decide to buy resale.

 

[jerseygirl]

Hyatt and Hilton both work well for shorter stays -- you don't have to wait to the 90-day mark to book them. Both programs are way more flexible than Starwood's program. Hyatt's resorts are a little higher-end than most Starwoods and Hilton's resorts are comparable for the most part (some of the SW Florida Hilton affiliates are not as high-end as most Starwoods, but they're close and they make up for any deficiencies with location, location, location! More importantly, maintenance fees have been much more stable at both Hyatt and Hilton and management doesn't seem to come up with ways to annoy owners -- they actually appreciate them!

Hilton works especially well for Orlando as there is usually open season inventory -- you can rent for about the same or less than the maintenance fees (depending on days of the week/unit size). I bought a small contract a few years ago and use open season all the time. I LOVE it!

Hyatt was building timeshares (or converting hotel space) at the Hyatt Regency Grand Cypress in Orlando -- a lovely resort if you've never been there. But, I'm not sure if they stopped given the economy.

If short stays in Orlando are a priority for the next few years, I would buy a small Hilton contract (e.g., 4800 points -- one-BR platinum for the smaller maintenance fee) and take advantage of open season. I'm a huge fan of the Hilton program. This year, we used part of our points for an oceanfront unit in Waikiki, then converted the balance to hotel points ... planning on using open season for whatever else might come up.

 

[Sophie]

Hyatt and Hilton both work well for shorter stays -- you don't have to wait to the 90-day mark to book them. Both programs are way more flexible than Starwood's program. Hyatt's resorts are a little higher-end than most Starwoods and Hilton's resorts are comparable for the most part (some of the SW Florida Hilton affiliates are not as high-end as most Starwoods, but they're close and they make up for any deficiencies with location, location, location! More importantly, maintenance fees have been much more stable at both Hyatt and Hilton and management doesn't seem to come up with ways to annoy owners -- they actually appreciate them!

Hilton works especially well for Orlando as there is usually open season inventory -- you can rent for about the same or less than the maintenance fees (depending on days of the week/unit size). I bought a small contract a few years ago and use open season all the time. I LOVE it!

Hyatt was building timeshares (or converting hotel space) at the Hyatt Regency Grand Cypress in Orlando -- a lovely resort if you've never been there. But, I'm not sure if they stopped given the economy.

If short stays in Orlando are a priority for the next few years, I would buy a small Hilton contract (e.g., 4800 points -- one-BR platinum for the smaller maintenance fee) and take advantage of open season. I'm a huge fan of the Hilton program. This year, we used part of our points for an oceanfront unit in Waikiki, then converted the balance to hotel points ... planning on using open season for whatever else might come up.

Thank you very much for your input. Very helpful!

 

[jerseygirl]

Thank you very much for your input. Very helpful!

You're very welcome. I'm a huge fan of both Hilton and Hyatt ... only put up with Starwood because I love WSJ and Harborside. My greatest wish is for Starwood corp to need cash and sell SVO to Hilton or Hyatt!

 

[Sophie]

You're very welcome. I'm a huge fan of both Hilton and Hyatt ... only put up with Starwood because I love WSJ and Harborside. My greatest wish is for Starwood corp to need cash and sell SVO to Hilton or Hyatt!

Yes, Starwood seems like a hazardous investment at this time, especially after reading the recent USA Today article or the thread about the project of a class action suit.

 

[jerseygirl]

Very true. But, no timeshare is really an investment. It's just a way of vacationing -- I love the extra room (I'm an early riser and want the living room and kitchen while waiting for others to crawl out of bed), the washer and dryer (allows for less packing and meets my obsessive compulsive need for clean clothes) ... but also want a resort with restaurant, bar, great pool/beach and therefore don't really like the "rental house" way of vacationing.

I use a 10-year horizon for timeshares I intend to use and a 5-year horizon for timeshares I intend to trade ... assume all will be worth $0 (and hope they can be sold for $1 on ebay!) ... and compare the amortized purchase costs + guesstimate of maintenance fees to see if I think I'll save money. If yes, it's a win. (I don't figure cost of money into the calculation as it comes from a disposable pool that would otherwise almost assuredly get spent on other frivolous items.) It's worked well for us for about 10 years ... but now we're seeing some formerly popular timeshares that won't even sell for $1 on ebay ... so that changes the equation as I don't want to own anything forever (and therefore agree with your earlier comment about RTUs). Why anyone assumes their kids will want to deal with this stuff is beyond me -- my dd knows the golden rules (location, quality and ebay) ... and that will get her through life just fine!

 

[Sophie]

Very true. But, no timeshare is really an investment. It's just a way of vacationing -- I love the extra room (I'm an early riser and want the living room and kitchen while waiting for others to crawl out of bed), the washer and dryer (allows for less packing and meets my obsessive compulsive need for clean clothes) ... but also want a resort with restaurant, bar, great pool/beach and therefore don't really like the "rental house" way of vacationing.

I use a 10-year horizon for timeshares I intend to use and a 5-year horizon for timeshares I intend to trade ... assume all will be worth $0 (and hope they can be sold for $1 on ebay!) ... and compare the amortized purchase costs + guesstimate of maintenance fees to see if I think I'll save money. If yes, it's a win. (I don't figure cost of money into the calculation as it comes from a disposable pool that would otherwise almost assuredly get spent on other frivolous items.) It's worked well for us for about 10 years ... but now we're seeing some formerly popular timeshares that won't even sell for $1 on ebay ... so that changes the equation as I don't want to own anything forever (and therefore agree with your earlier comment about RTUs). Why anyone assumes their kids will want to deal with this stuff is beyond me -- my dd knows the golden rules (location, quality and ebay) ... and that will get her through life just fine!

Thank you for your analysis, Jerseygirl. These are some aspects I have come to realize about TS -- and I am sure I still have A LOT more to learn. I am focusing initially on the quality/cost of the TS purchase (I previously use the word investment, meaning something in which I put money, not any form of real estate speculation), then comparing it with how much I spend to get access to similar resorts on a rental basis (I also like the luxury of a second room and kitchen), and trying to figure out my vacationing needs in the next 10-years -- not an easy task. So, I am currently reviewing my past and current vacation and conference expenses to guess-timate my future needs. TUG forum members, such as you, are offering valuable help in the process.

 

[clsmit]

Sophie -- Another thing you might want to consider is just renting wherever and whenever you want to go -- the ultimate flexibility for no headaches. For Orlando, renting either a condo or a timeshare is easy and convenient. For other locations, either a vacation home, condo, or timeshare will be available just about anywhere at anytime. Or even a hotel room!

With a 4 year old, getting places to stay during the school year will become even more important very soon, and soon after that even your summer vacations will be taken up with band camp or sports camp or both! (I'm living that right now -- my summer 2010 isn't locked in due to unknown camp dates and I'm getting nervous about it!)

So you might want to keep your options even more open until you decide what your vacation habits might be when school becomes a bigger part of your life.

And welcome to TUG!!

 

[Sophie]

With a 4 year old, getting places to stay during the school year will become even more important very soon, and soon after that even your summer vacations will be taken up with band camp or sports camp or both! (I'm living that right now -- my summer 2010 isn't locked in due to unknown camp dates and I'm getting nervous about it!

Yes, I am worried about the time constraints school is going to put on our vacation planning and budget. I rarely travelled during the summer in the past, due to the higher costs, especially when travelling to Europe to visit my family or going on a cruise.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Having just returned from Orlando (for work meeting) - I do not know why anyone would want to buy a TS there other than for exchanging reasons. There are 1000s in a very small area - and most it seemed next to some sort of highway.

I stayed at the Marriott Sabal Palms (2Bd nonLO, ~1500sqft) for about $300 per night (rented via Marriott) when I could not get in the Marriott World Center (hotel). It was nice and recently remodeled, and much better than the hotel next door for about the same price, but tacky.. (as most things in Orlando are).