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Should I buy at MOC Today?

ktroncroz

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Hi All,

My family and I bought at 2BD/LO EOY Napilli Villa IV last year for about $25K on impulse.

I asked for guidance on this board and everybody said rescind so I did.

Well, we are back staying as renters at the MOC right now and love it.

We just finished our sales presentation. They offered the following:

Every Year 2BD/LO IV Napili Villa for $34,672.

This price includes $3500 rental credit and a 20% discount off the $46,900 base price.

We will likely put this on a marriot rewards credit card to get some extra points.

I poked at the resale market briefly and was seeing these units for $35k or so it seems like a reasonable deal.

Please let me know your thoughts, as I would like to do or not do this deal today (so I don't have to think about it for the rest of my vacation).

Thanks,
Kevin
 

DeniseM

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There is no way that they are selling you a unit at resale prices. Honestly, I can't believe you fell for this twice! :doh:
 

DeniseM

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Please look at these resales from redweek.com - no way is an IV going for 35K on the resale market. You could buy an ocean front unit for that price!


Price Week (Season) Use Type Unit View Bd/ Ba Occ
$5,000 Floating (High) Even Deed Garden 1/ 2 4
SOLD
$6,000 Floating (High) Odd Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
NEW!
$6,500 Floating (Varies) Even Deed Varies 1/ 2 4 View
$6,999 Floating (High) Odd Deed Mountain 1/ 2 4 View
$7,450 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4
SOLD
$7,500 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 6 View
$7,900 Floating (High) Even Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4
SOLD
$7,900 Floating (High) Even Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4
SOLD
$8,000 Floating (High) Even Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4 View
$8,995 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
NEW!
$9,000 Floating (High) Odd Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
NEW!
$9,000 Floating (High) Odd Deed Mountain 1/ 2 4 View
$9,000 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$9,400 Floating (High) Even Deed Island 1/ 2 4 View
$9,400 Floating (High) Odd Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$9,500 Floating (High) Even Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
$9,888 Floating (High) Annual Deed Mountain 1/ 2 4 View
$10,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
$10,050 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$10,500 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Island 1/ 2 4 View
$10,995 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$11,500 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Ocean view 1/ 1 4 View
$11,500 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Varies 1/ 2 4 View
$12,000 Floating (High) Even Deed Mountain 2/ 3 8 View
NEW!
$12,750 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
$12,900 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$13,000 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$13,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$13,500 Floating (Varies) Even Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
$13,760 Floating (High) Odd Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4 View
$14,300 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$14,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 6 View
$15,000 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$15,500 Floating (High) Odd Deed Ocean view 2/ 2.5 8 View
$15,900 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$16,000 Floating (High) Odd Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8
SOLD
$16,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$16,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$16,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 1/ 2 4 View
$16,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$17,400 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$17,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 2/ 3 8 View
$17,800 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 2/ 3 8
SOLD
$17,900 Floating (High) Even Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
NEW!
$18,000 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$18,500 Floating (Varies) Even Deed Golf course 2/ 3 8 View
$19,750 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4 View
$19,995 Floating (Varies) Even Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$19,995 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 5 View
$20,000 Floating (Varies) Odd Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$20,500 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Varies 2/ 3 8 View
$21,900 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 2/ 3 8 View
$23,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$24,000 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Ocean view 1/ 2 4 View
$24,600 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 1/ 2 4 View
$25,000 Floating (Varies) Annual Deed Garden 2/ 3 8 View
$26,750 Floating (High) Annual Deed Mountain 2/ 3 8 View
$28,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Garden 2/ 3 8 View
$28,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$29,900 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 3 8 View
$30,000 39 (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 2 8 View
$31,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$33,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$33,500 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 3 8 View
$34,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 3 8 View
$34,900 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 2/ 3 8 View
$38,900 52 (High) Annual Deed Pool 2/ 3 9 View
$39,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 3 4 View
$45,995 33 (High) Annual Deed Mountain 2/ 3 8 View
$49,000 52 (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 3 8 View
$49,000 1 (High) Annual Deed Oceanfront 2/ 2 8 View
$65,000 Floating (High) Annual Deed Ocean view 2/ 2 6 View
 
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ktroncroz

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Thanks but the comparisons you provided aren't valid.

The 2Bd/3BA units are in the old hotel building without a the full kitchen and full amenities of the Lahaina and Napili Villas.

Looking at Redweek.com I see the following for the Villas:

Lahiana:

22 timeshare resale postings, $35,000 - $150,000
0 points/credits for sale see details below

Napili:

3 timeshare resale postings, $39,900 - $110,000
0 points/credits for sale see details below


If you can pull the sales for either of these locations for 2BD/2BA that would be a good comparison.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

timeos2

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Why pay too much?

We just finished our sales presentation. They offered the following:

Every Year 2BD/LO IV Napili Villa for $34,672.

This price includes $3500 rental credit and a 20% discount off the $46,900 base price.

We will likely put this on a marriot rewards credit card to get some extra points.

I poked at the resale market briefly and was seeing these units for $35k or so it seems like a reasonable deal.

Please let me know your thoughts, as I would like to do or not do this deal today (so I don't have to think about it for the rest of my vacation).

Thanks,
Kevin



Unbelievable that anyone would even consider a retail purchase at this time for those prices. Any resale will be half that price or less. If there aren't any available today there will be soon. You are throwing away tens of thousands of dollars if you buy into this offer. It's your money but you would be wasting it. There isn't something better you can do with it?
 

DeniseM

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A quick look at the TUG Ads shows this one for $25K that seems to be what you are looking for:

Seller Description

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Vi
MM1
$25000.00
Maint $1818.00

Floating (Every Year)
wk: 01 / 2010 - wk: 50 / 2010
Friday/Saturday/Sunday
Red/Platinum

Bedrooms Two Bedroom Lockout
Bathrooms 2 Bathrooms
Sleeps Sleeps 8
This Post Will Expire On: 12/12/2009
Two bedroom lockout with mountain view in the new Napili Tower Villas. Enjoy two weeks for the price of one on beautiful Kaanapali beach!


I don't know much about the Marriott, but you could buy Ocean FRONT at the Westin Ka'anapali for $35K.
 
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billymach4

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:wave:

Listen up. Marriott needs the revenue. Someone has to buy as developer so we can enjoy the resales. I say go ahead and make my day.:hysterical:
 

dioxide45

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The problem is that the new towers in Maui are fairly new. So those that are selling are trying to recoup much of their purchase price. They haven't had their weeks on the market for years like many others so they may not be willing to sell for dirt cheap (at least not yet). There is also a lower supply out there for these newer units, so prices will be a little higher.

You may be able to find someone who will accept an offer at 50% of retail, but it will take lots of offers and grouchy responses from the sellers you contact.
 

GaryDouglas

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Agreeing wtih Dioxide, the units are too new to see all that many at low prices yet. I have been following resales on eBay for some time and the newer units rarely come up for sale at highly discounted prices. If you feel comfortable making offers to sellers on RedWeek, TUG, etc. at whatever percent reduction of current retail you are willing to pay and wading through the 'grouchy responses' looking for a truely desparate seller, go for it. Maybe talking to someone like Shelly at Transaction Realty would be helpful. But, if you don't want to do any of that, you want it now, not two, three or four years from now, you want an easy transaction with Marriott perks and money is not the most important factor in your evaluation, then go with Marriott.
 
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gmarine

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Dont forget the prices that you are seeing on the internet are ASKING prices. Very rarely are timeshares ever sold at the asking price. Most of the time actual selling price is thousands less. If your that desperate to throw away money toss some this way. ;) :)
 

Smooth Air

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Kevin, there is a saying "If you have to ask the question, then you already know the answer." This "deal" that you are considering will still be there months from now. The prices are going to go down, not up. So, try to enjoy your vacation & put this on the back burner.
Take a look @ some resales. Contact a reputable timeshare Sales person. You do not have to buy today! Take your time. Now go to the beach & have some fun!

Smooth Air:cool:
 

m61376

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An example of a recently sold unit at $21,300 here.

While you may (or may not) decide to buy directly, you just spent $3500 to rent a week, so spend the week enjoying yourselves and not on the computer trying to decide whether or not to buy. As others have said, defer your decision until after you get home and the "vacation high" has subsided. Contacting Shelley as suggested and/or other resale agents and getting a clearer picture of the market, perhaps contacting the person who posted the ad on Tug and/or other sellers to get a clearer view of the market would all be in your best interests before you sign on the dotted line. Check out the recent thread in the Starwood forum about the increase in Maui taxes which presumably will also impact Marriott's MF's.

Give yourself the time to digest all the info. BEFORE buying anything. Also- are you looking at an island view unit because the view from the room doesn't really matter to you or simply because of financial considerations? Make sure you won't regret not having bought an ocean view. The flip side to this property being new and fewer resales with higher resale prices is that there is a greater distance for prices to fall as more resales hit the market. So- buy to use, to enjoy, but be fairly certain you will be happy with your purchase.

And, while Gary is right and ultimately you may feel the deal is worth it for convenience of transaction, etc., it would be far better to reach that conclusion after spending a little time checking out your other options than to buy now and then regret later.

One more thing- and there have been several discussions about this from others more familiar with the properties- make sure you are well aware of what some of the older units have been selling for lately, especially some of the Ebay bargains. Some of the Hawaii units have sold for shockingly low prices and some even prefer the older section for location, view and the extra bathroom. I am not saying that the newer villas aren't nicer (I have no personal experience to offer any opinion there), but you may want to check them out rather than dismissing the possibility; you at least owe it to yourself to realize what prices they have been selling for and making sure that the price difference is worth it to you. Again- I am not saying they are not worth the extra $$'s, just that you can buy OF for far less than the island view you are considering, so you should be fully aware of what's out there before buying anything.
 
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sernow

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Kevin,

You rescinded last year because you had bought on impulse and thought it may have been a bad decision. Now having thought about it for an entire year, you still want to buy, and you're getting a better price than last year. You want it, so buy it if you can afford it and are comfortable with the price.
 

wuv pooh

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If you are buying to use every year then I think it is a marginal deal to me:

$35,000 x .05 = $1,750 + $1,715 MF = $3,465 vs. $3,500 rent

You would probably do better to keep your flexibility by renting for a few years and then buying a resale further down the road.

If you are buying and not planning on using it every year I would pass. Any trade you make will be a trade down because it is the top of the line. You would do better to buy a Platinum Manor Club for $8k and taking the chance to trade up into MOC every 3 years or renting when you want to go.

Some on this board are able to do OK by renting the lock off piece and staying in the 1 bd. That could make the deal much better if you are happy staying in the 1 bd, but I don't know how much the 1bd rent for.
 

LisaRex

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FYI, Maui County just tripled property taxes for timeshares because they are now using best retail value (e.g. full developer price) for their valuations. At the Westin, we're looking at an additional $400 per week per 2 bdrm (unless we can successfully fight the increase). The new Marriott towers were very similarly priced to the Westin, so your increase will be similar.

I paid $50k (resale) for my OF unit before the market crashed. This was when Westin was asking $80k. I used this tactic:

1. I set a budget. (Mine was $50k) That was the going resale rate for OV, but I wanted OF. (I'm all about the view.)

2. I contacted a dozen Westin OF resellers via SellMyTimeshareNow and MyResortNetwork. (Redweek prices seem high.) and told them that I was a serious buyer, had $50k burning a hole in my pocket, and were they interested?

3. Within 2 days, I was contacted by a distressed seller who made an offer of $55k. I told her no and thanked her for her time.

4. An agent contacted me with an offer for an OF unit at the south tower for $52k. I really wanted the north.

5. I forwarded the email with the $52k offer to the distressed seller, told her that I really preferred north, and asked if she would reconsider before I accepted the other offer.

6. She offered $52k with her paying the MFs. She also offered to make a July reservation on my behalf at 9am EST at 12 months out so that we would get locked in for a summer week the following year.

***

If I were to buy again, I'd use the same tactic, perhaps mentioning the increase in MFs and screen-shotting any comparable sales near my price. I wouldn't hesitate to work with an agent, either, because they have lots of sellers and know how antsy they are to sell. Just be sure that his commission is paid by the previous owner.

Given that MFs are the same for IV and OF owners, why in the world wouldn't you try and get an OF unit for the same price that you were willing to pay for IV? If you're like me, you're rarely going to trade because the MFs are so high at your home resort and most resorts would be a step down. And you pay the same amount year after year whether you're looking at the Pacific Ocean or a wall. Why not go for the former? And we OF owners have an edge over OV and IV owners when it comes to renting our unit, should we decide to not use it all and want to command the top going rate.
 
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m61376

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And we OF owners have an edge over OV and IV owners when it comes to renting our unit, should we decide to not use it all and want to command the top going rate.

Although your entire post was great, I think this part deserves highlighting. Living on the East coast, buying in Hawaii is impractical for us because of the flight. As an occasional visitor, as a renter I would only rent at least an OV and would pay a little more in rental for an OF. I would not even consider renting an IV and would expect to pay more for an OV at least (as I would if staying in a hotel in Hawaii). In a bad economy such as now when it is hard to rent, I'd venture to guess that the OF units still get rented.

Kevin, even if the view isn't important to you and your family, consider that the occasional visitor will likely care about the view.
 

ktroncroz

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Thanks..

Thanks for the great advice everyone.

My wife and I discussed last night and we are not going to purchase for the following reasons:

1) Flexibility - MOC is perfect for us with our 3.5 year old twin boys right now, but as the boys get older we are going to want to go other places. Yes, Maui is the best place to trade, but $1800 in MF to not stay here isn't good. If you buy here you should stay here.

2) Marginal deal - as pointed out above. I should mention we are staying 10 days for $3500 not 7, so deal looks even worse.

3) Concerns about the MF - Its sounds like they are going to go way up over the next year.

So we are going to continue renting for the next few years and see what happens.

Don't worry I am enjoying my vacation - very, very much!

Thanks,
Kevin
 

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Kevin, I think that is the right decision. I also believe resale prices will come under significant further pressure if the property tax change goes through, and MF's increase from $1,800 to ~$2,100 per year for a 2BR -- just from the taxes alone, versus true operating expenses.

Candidly, that might be an ideal time to buy resale if you can afford the MFs as I suspect alot of people will be distressed by that change in the current economy.

Good luck and good choice passing on the retail purchase!
 

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Worser and Worser

$35,000 x .05 = $1,750 + $1,715 MF = $3,465 vs. $3,500 rent

This math is really helpful. But the bottom line is actually worse than the math suggests. The above formula is based on the premise that you still have your $35,000 that is "earning" $1,750 a year. You don't. That $35,000 is reduced by the fact that you can't sell your unit at that price (most likely).

As an owner of an OF unit in one of the new buildings, I should add that it is hard to get good dates when you make reservations for a floating unit. There are many owners who take advantage of the 13 month priority given to owners of multiple weeks.

My advice to anyone who is going to buy at MOC is to get a fixed week unit. We know for certain that we will be able to enjoy the same unit (which is gorgeous) the same week every year. The fixed units hold their value better than the floating units.
 

m61376

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Lawlar- While I understand and appreciate your argument for a fixed week, the flip side of the coin which someone considering such a purchase is whether they are certain to be able to travel the same week every year. For example, we own two weeks and next year, both the weeks we reserved over the winter and over the summer, which we would have chosen to reserve again next year (and, if we own fixed weeks, which would have been the weeks we likely would have bought) present conflicts- a friend's son's Bar Mitzvah over the winter and a wedding over the summer. So fixed weeks, while great in theory, often don't work in everyday life because of family/friend conflicts.

So, just something else for a new buyer to consider. Personally, I like the flexibility of floating weeks and just recognize that I have to be fast in reserving them. Nothing is ideal I guess.
 

MOXJO7282

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If you really were to buy a Maui Marriott and have the resources, I would try to buy a resale 2 or 3 BDRM Fixed week 7 or 52 OF unit.

Then rent out the studio ever year to just about cover total MF. As mentioned a fixed week, especially a holiday week, we really hold its resale value and be easy to rent out.

And if you wanted to trade your 1BDRM side, a week 7 or 52 would trade like gangbusters and get you pretty much what ever you want elsewhere.
 

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Sales Pitch & Fixed

Hi All,

...
We just finished our sales presentation. They offered the following:

Every Year 2BD/LO IV Napili Villa for $34,672.

This price includes $3500 rental credit and a 20% discount off the $46,900 base price.


Thanks,
Kevin

The thing that irritates me when I read this post (I do tend to get cranky, now and then) is my memory of my trying to negotiate for a lower price when we bought our timeshare. The sales lady told me that Marriott never negotiates on price - it wouldn't be fair to those who paid full price.

I guess things change.

A fixed week is not for everyone. But it really works for us. And we picked a week that our grandkid has off every year. It also helps that the whales are visiting the islands when we go to Maui. There is more a feeling that you own something if you have the same unit each year.

If we had to do it all over again, would we? Heck no. We would use the money more wisely.
 

GregT

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If we had to do it all over again, would we? Heck no. We would use the money more wisely.


Lawlar makes an interesting point -- if I personally had to do it (buy direct) over again, would I? I'm not sure -- but I'm sure glad I own it now, I love it.

Like Lawlar, I have a fixed week chosen specifically for a time period when my kids get out of school and I feel like I truly own it -- I love the unit, same view, same spot, for years to come -- and having timeshares "forces" me to make vacation plans.

Please never consider this an investment -- view it as a luxury item, a true discretionary expense, which are few and far between these days -- but if you love Maui (and MOC) and take this view -- then I think this is a terrific opportunity to buy a resale unit.

But then again, I think this terrific opportunity will be there for years to come.

Good luck to all,

Greg
 
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