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Resale points EVER be counted towards VIP status???

cbyrne1174

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They can limit resale in an EXTREMELY easy way without having to make a new trust. All they have to do is create a new ownership fee and change the transfer fee to a much higher number.

Example:
New membership: $5,000
Transfer Fee:$2,500

That would making purchasing resale cost a min of $7,500 with no benefits. It's much easier to create/increase a fee then to mess with inventory.
 

bnoble

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what I think will happen is that Wyndham will come up with a way to allow resale contract benefits to stay intact for VIP owners, while altering the structure used for resale only owners over time
They could have done this when creating CWA. The template in Diamond was already there, in that resales in that system revert only to the underlying colleciton/resort, and only a new developer purchase can requalify them. I can't remember if Marriott's points product was before or after CWA, but it works the same way too.. In fact, I am stills surprised Wyndham didn't structure CWA this way, but it seems like it is only a matter of time.
 

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They could have done this when creating CWA. The template in Diamond was already there, in that resales in that system revert only to the underlying colleciton/resort, and only a new developer purchase can requalify them. I can't remember if Marriott's points product was before or after CWA, but it works the same way too.. In fact, I am stills surprised Wyndham didn't structure CWA this way, but it seems like it is only a matter of time.
I’m not familiar with Diamond. So to be clear, any Diamond resale contract is only valid for the deeded resort it’s from and/or the resort collection it is tied to?


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dgalati

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I have been told by many on the inside at Wyndham that the day of resale deeds being able to be used with VIP a discounts is about to be discontinued. The costs to the club and its owners has been compared to the days of a few mega renters buying millions of resale points then stripping deeds and benefiting from the 3 years of use without paying developer price for the points.
 

cbyrne1174

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I have been told by many on the inside at Wyndham that the day of resale deeds being able to be used with VIP a discounts is about to be discontinued. The costs to the club and its owners has been compared to the days of a few mega renters buying millions of resale points then stripping deeds and benefiting from the 3 years of use without paying developer price for the points.
Wyndham has been too shady in the past for me to trust making a developer purchase. I like the idea of just using resale for as long as I can until I either can't enjoy it anymore or its been restricted to an unusable level, then defaulting or giving it back. If they do something that makes resale only accounts unusable like Diamond did, they will most likely grandfather the current resale owners. I can't imagine any resale owners keeping their membership if the points are only good at the resorts they are deeded to. Wyndham can't handle having a massive amount of people defaulting by not grandfathering us in.
 

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The changes they made to combat mega renters affected everyone, but the target was definitely the mega renters. The amount of people that would be affected by resale changes would be much larger. They also have to be careful about making resale points even less desirable. The harder it is to unload a resale contract (because it has to many restrictions), the more people would walk away leaving Wyndham and the resorts holding the bag. Ovations can only take so much inventory before they will have to start rejecting or being more selective. From what I hear, Diamond is even harder to unload on the resale market then Wyndham is because of their restrictions on resale. If they make changes it might be more like we cannot use them at new resorts that open up. Or we cannot use them with new programs like they did with Wyndham rewards. Also, if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale, it would make VIP less desirable too. There will be fewer willing to upgrade or buy in.


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Wyndham has been too shady in the past for me to trust making a developer purchase. I like the idea of just using resale for as long as I can until I either can't enjoy it anymore or its been restricted to an unusable level, then defaulting or giving it back. If they do something that makes resale only accounts unusable like Diamond did, they will most likely grandfather the current resale owners. I can't imagine any resale owners keeping their membership if the points are only good at the resorts they are deeded to. Wyndham can't handle having a massive amount of people defaulting by not grandfathering us in.
This would create havoc for the HOAs, especially at the less desirable resorts. It would drive up maintenance fees to cover the maintenance costs of those who walked away.
 

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They can limit resale in an EXTREMELY easy way without having to make a new trust. All they have to do is create a new ownership fee and change the transfer fee to a much higher number.

Example:
New membership: $5,000
Transfer Fee:$2,500

That would making purchasing resale cost a min of $7,500 with no benefits. It's much easier to create/increase a fee then to mess with inventory.
If they do that, it would make resale even more undesirable and therefor harder for people to get rid of. Once Ovations has their full and starts rejecting requests, people will start to walk away. Marriott has done the high fee thing but they have less inventory and less resorts, so there is not as much on the market. I’m willing to bet that the people buying Marriott resale already own Marriott. They already have an investment in Marriott and are looking to expand their ownership and willing to pay the fee to do it. Either way, Wyndham cannot get away with that model. There is simply too much inventory in the resale market. I’m not talking just Wyndham. I mean the entire resale market is huge. There is a lot of other systems out there that sellers have to contend with.


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This would create havoc for the HOAs, especially at the less desirable resorts. It would drive up maintenance fees to cover the maintenance costs of those who walked away.
Which in turn would spur more of the left behind owners to abandon their ownership creating a death spiral for those resorts.
 

bnoble

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I’m not familiar with Diamond. So to be clear, any Diamond resale contract is only valid for the deeded resort it’s from and/or the resort collection it is tied to?


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That’s my understanding, yes. In other words only the underlying resort/collection is deeded. Participation in The Club is not.

Which in turn would spur more of the left behind owners to abandon their ownership creating a death spiral for those resorts.
Except that hasn’t seemed to be the case. At the very least, such inventory just gets recycled back into the sales arm. The developer can magically re-qualify anything. They just won't for a resale-only buyer.
 
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TheHolleys87

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Anything is possible, but taking this route would inevitably upset the segment of owners who have collectively and historically made the largest dollar investments into Wyndham over time. Doing anything that upsets your most loyal segment of owners is not good business practice no matter how you slice it. This is why the statement "subject to change" while legally accurate with respect to the entire VIP program, which could include termination of the entire program, is highly unlikely.

Since I'm in a sharing mood, what I think will happen is that Wyndham will come up with a way to allow resale contract benefits to stay intact for VIP owners, while altering the structure used for resale only owners over time. What I'm about to say is going to be a bit controversial, but I think something along this line will come into existence in the foreseeable future. Long story short, Wyndham will create a new trust, similar to CWA, that will start to hold resale contracts and deeds. Call it CWR (Club Wyndham Resale) for sake of argument. When resale only purchasers file the paperwork with Wyndham to transfer ownership, the deed(s) associated with that resale contract will be transferred into the CWR trust. The CWR trust can then have limits placed upon it when trading into CWP or any of the other trusts that already exist. Initially this new trust will not have any limits placed upon it when trading into CWP other than the current limits already in place for resale contract owners - such as no Club Pass or Plus Partners program access for example.

Moving forward, what this allows Wyndham to do is to segment resale inventory via the new trust - and to control what other inventory resale owners can access over time. This same approach would also allow VIP owners - who also hold resale contracts - to keep their VIP privileges attached to resale contracts - because the VIP resale contracts will not be transferred into the CWR trust - the inventory attached to these contracts will stay intact within the current trusts (CWA/CWS). Here's the controversial part. We've all heard rumors that Wyndham may place additional limitations on resale owners. Much like Disney is now placing limits on resale, and Hilton has started down this same path. Wyndham, IMHO, will follow suit, it's simply a question of how and when. Let's assume for a moment that 50% of Wyndham ownership is now resale only owners. What this approach would allow Wyndham to do is to then start placing limits on what inventory CWR can access in the other trusts and can even potentially alter the trading power for CWR into CWP. Would Wyndham do something like this? Very gradually over time would be the only way it could work. The way they would probably start doing this is to draw a line in the sand and say that after a certain date, all new resale contracts processed by Wyndham will migrate into CWR, while current resale holders will stay intact in the current trusts. This would start moving net new resale inventory into CWR that would grow over time. What Wyndham may choose to do is to limit resale only owners to only the inventory available within the CWR trust, while the developer points owners can access all inventory across all trusts. If we assume that the ownership is 50/50 today for sake of argument, that means that developer points owners would have access to 100% of the available inventory - while resale owners only have access to 50% of the available inventory - and only inventory owned by other resale owners. There are lots of caveats here - but something like this is what I would at least consider doing if I were Wyndham - and wanted to truly start to place more value on owners who purchase developer points vs resale only owners and to gradually head in a different direction over time by gradually placing more limits on resale owners.

Using the above listed model, Wyndham could also then easily allow for VIP owners with resale contracts to also use their resale points with Club Pass and other trusts/programs, while ensuring that resale only owners remain restricted since the CWR trust - because the rulesets are enforced more simply and more easily at the trust level - unilaterally - instead of the current system where the rulesets are dependent upon the contract flag itself (if the contract is flagged resale).

This is something that would need to occur very gradually as doing so too quickly would result in resale owners dumping their ownership enmasse. But over time an approach like this would place more value on purchasing developer points - because you would get access to 100% of the system - while also devaluing resale ownership - because resale only owners would only receive access to a minority of the inventory in the system over time. This is what Disney has already started down the path of doing, and Hilton is not far behind from what I've heard.
Just a question re the bolded statement - if someone with developer points then buys a contract that’s been transferred to the CWR trust, do you think Wyndham would transfer it back to the CWP trust? Or would a given contract be “stuck” in CWR? I assume that if it could move from CWP to CWR it could move back the other way but want to confirm you see it that way.
 

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Except that hasn’t seemed to be the case. At the very least, such inventory just gets recycled back into the sales arm. The developer can magically re-qualify anything. They just won't for a resale-only buyer.
Yes but at one point (not sure if this is still the case) Diamond was allowing owners to bring their resale points back into the Club and use them outside the collection, provided they buy half the amount of points retail. So if you had 10,000 resale, if you bought 5,000 retail, you would have 15,000 to use in any of the collections. If Wyndham did that, maybe they’d be able to get away with limiting resale. Maybe. I don’t know if that’s still the case. If they stopped that, it might hurt sales. From what I have read, Diamond is not easy to unload. Harder then Wyndham, because of the restrictions. I think they have a deedback program too which probably helps, but if it got overwhelmed, I’m sure they would restrict it or start rejecting requests.




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Just a question re the bolded statement - if someone with developer points then buys a contract that’s been transferred to the CWR trust, do you think Wyndham would transfer it back to the CWP trust? Or would a given contract be “stuck” in CWR? I assume that if it could move from CWP to CWR it could move back the other way but want to confirm you see it that way.
Just like today, inventory can be added and removed from the trusts. Inventory is added and removed from CWA on an ongoing basis. Moving inventory from CWR to CWS or CWA would not be a big deal as a result - in the scenario I outlined.


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Hello all, I am fairly new to timesharing. Have been Wyndham owner for over 5 years. Now I am on the crossroad to purchase from developer, offered:
1. 105k CWA points, ability to consolidate my 2 deeded resorts of Palm Are 84k points and Ocean Walk 105k points into CWA, which in turn will lower my maintenance fee. With this purchase, they told me that I will be a VIP Gold (since I also have 2 PIC plus). All for the price of $16575.

2. Resale of traditional deeded resort of 105k pt for only total of $2500 with transfer fees, closing cost, etc.

Obviously my wallet will choose the second option. But when I mentioned to the guy from WVO telesales (corporate team) about my decision to bring in the resale points, he mentioned that those resale points will not qualify me to get VIP benefit and I will not be able to consolidate them all to CWA.

Please help!

Hayde
 

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I would go for #1 IF AND ONLY IF those PICs don't fall off because you are trading in a contract. Trading in 2 contracts to end up with 294k CWA is absolutely fair. Your MF aren't particularly low to begin with but CWA is 5.99/k.

A resale for $2500 is not really a good deal unless it is coming from Wyndham and counts. I imagine that it is not, though.
 

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Hello all, I am fairly new to timesharing. Have been Wyndham owner for over 5 years. Now I am on the crossroad to purchase from developer, offered:
1. 105k CWA points, ability to consolidate my 2 deeded resorts of Palm Are 84k points and Ocean Walk 105k points into CWA, which in turn will lower my maintenance fee. With this purchase, they told me that I will be a VIP Gold (since I also have 2 PIC plus). All for the price of $16575.

2. Resale of traditional deeded resort of 105k pt for only total of $2500 with transfer fees, closing cost, etc.

Obviously my wallet will choose the second option. But when I mentioned to the guy from WVO telesales (corporate team) about my decision to bring in the resale points, he mentioned that those resale points will not qualify me to get VIP benefit and I will not be able to consolidate them all to CWA.

Please help!

Hayde
I agree that $2,500 is not a good deal for 105,000. Just watch eBay. This time of year, prices are much lower. If you watch Timeshare Nation, they usually get CWA contracts 1 or 2 times a month. TN points are 100% free to you.

The timeshare sales guy is correct that resale will not count towards VIP status and as far as I know, they won’t take them on trade.

Your maintenance fees for the new points (including the 105,000 you have to buy to do the trade) will be $1,937 a year or $161.45 a month. That includes the program fee. As mentioned by Bendadin, CWA is $5.99 per 1,000 points. The program fee is currently 60 cents per 1,000 points bringing it up to $6.59 per 1,000 points. 105k+105k+84k= 294k points. 294 times $6.59 is $1,937.46.

I’m guessing that is more then what you are paying now in maintenance fees. Your base rate for the maintenance fees may go down, but because you’re adding additional points, the overall cost goes up. None of this includes the maintenance fees on your PIC weeks.

IF you can use Gold VIP benefits and IF you can use all those points, then the whole deal might be worth it. Don’t assume you’ll always get discounts and upgrade. Most of mine (as Gold VIP) have been upgraded, but it’s usually one bedrooms to two bedrooms. Most discounts happen during high season. I did get (2) two bedrooms (at a discount) upgraded to 3 bedrooms during prime season, but that was not at the most popular resort in the area. I wouldn’t count on that in most cases. My point is, don’t make discounts and upgrades a deciding factor to go Gold VIP. Consider them as just bonuses. If you travel a lot during prime season and book two or three bedrooms, your chances of getting upgraded get much smaller then someone who booked a one bedroom. Look at the other Gold benefits and decide if those are worth $16k to you. I do not regret going Gold VIP. I get a lot of use out of the benefits. Sure, the $35k total I paid for VIP Gold would buy a lot of housekeeping credits, reservations credits, and guest certificates. If you try running the numbers, VIP Gold will likely never get a ROI. So don’t try to justify it with numbers. It never works. If the benefits are worth that much to you, and you can afford it, go for it.

Oh and don’t factor in renting points to offset costs. There are a lot of people doing that and Platinum owners provide the beat deals. Never buy points with the thought that you’ll offset the costs by renting. You’ll be competing with people like me who don’t care about making a profit. I charge just enough to pay the maintenance fees on the points I don’t use. I don’t rent often.


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bnoble

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Both of those things are true. They will not qualify you for VIP, and they will not be moved into CWA. The question is whether or not those things are worth the extra $14K you'd be paying for them. Also, be sure that you are *permanent* VIP Gold, and not just because of bonus points.
 

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How can VIPG get a free upgrade to Diamond status?
Sign up for a Wyndham rewards account and include your member number. It should give you instant Diamond status. Once that is done, go to Caesar’s rewards and look for the link to match status.


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WOW..thanks for all the great advise guys!!.
Richelle, you are so thorough. Thank you so much I really appreciate it!

I agree that $2,500 is not a good deal for 105,000. Just watch eBay. This time of year, prices are much lower. If you watch Timeshare Nation, they usually get CWA contracts 1 or 2 times a month. TN points are 100% free to you.

The timeshare sales guy is correct that resale will not count towards VIP status and as far as I know, they won’t take them on trade.

Your maintenance fees for the new points (including the 105,000 you have to buy to do the trade) will be $1,937 a year or $161.45 a month. That includes the program fee. As mentioned by Bendadin, CWA is $5.99 per 1,000 points. The program fee is currently 60 cents per 1,000 points bringing it up to $6.59 per 1,000 points. 105k+105k+84k= 294k points. 294 times $6.59 is $1,937.46.

I’m guessing that is more then what you are paying now in maintenance fees. Your base rate for the maintenance fees may go down, but because you’re adding additional points, the overall cost goes up. None of this includes the maintenance fees on your PIC weeks.

IF you can use Gold VIP benefits and IF you can use all those points, then the whole deal might be worth it. Don’t assume you’ll always get discounts and upgrade. Most of mine (as Gold VIP) have been upgraded, but it’s usually one bedrooms to two bedrooms. Most discounts happen during high season. I did get (2) two bedrooms (at a discount) upgraded to 3 bedrooms during prime season, but that was not at the most popular resort in the area. I wouldn’t count on that in most cases. My point is, don’t make discounts and upgrades a deciding factor to go Gold VIP. Consider them as just bonuses. If you travel a lot during prime season and book two or three bedrooms, your chances of getting upgraded get much smaller then someone who booked a one bedroom. Look at the other Gold benefits and decide if those are worth $16k to you. I do not regret going Gold VIP. I get a lot of use out of the benefits. Sure, the $35k total I paid for VIP Gold would buy a lot of housekeeping credits, reservations credits, and guest certificates. If you try running the numbers, VIP Gold will likely never get a ROI. So don’t try to justify it with numbers. It never works. If the benefits are worth that much to you, and you can afford it, go for it.

Oh and don’t factor in renting points to offset costs. There are a lot of people doing that and Platinum owners provide the beat deals. Never buy points with the thought that you’ll offset the costs by renting. You’ll be competing with people like me who don’t care about making a profit. I charge just enough to pay the maintenance fees on the points I don’t use. I don’t rent often.


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WOW..thanks for all the great advise guys!!.
Richelle, you are so thorough. Thank you so much I really appreciate it!
No problem. Happy to help.


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Sign up for a Wyndham rewards account and include your member number. It should give you instant Diamond status. Once that is done, go to Caesar’s rewards and look for the link to match status.


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Hello Richelle, Could you elaborate? I have had Gold Status with Wyndham Rewards since I signed up for the credit card (no annual fee) in February 2018. I do not have $75 Annual Fee card
By 'member number', I assume you mean Club Wyndham member number and 'Diamond Status' refers to the status in Wyndham Rewards. Where exactly do I enter the member number? Shouldn't it be there somewhere already? I am not able to find it. I am a VIP-Platinum owner and none of the presentations I have attended ever touched upon this. I just binged Caesar's rewards and see that Wyndham Rewards has a linkage with Caesar's.
Sorry for so many ignorant questions! Thank you.
 

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Hello Richelle, Could you elaborate? I have had Gold Status with Wyndham Rewards since I signed up for the credit card (no annual fee) in February 2018. I do not have $75 Annual Fee card
By 'member number', I assume you mean Club Wyndham member number and 'Diamond Status' refers to the status in Wyndham Rewards. Where exactly do I enter the member number? Shouldn't it be there somewhere already? I am not able to find it. I am a VIP-Platinum owner and none of the presentations I have attended ever touched upon this. I just binged Caesar's rewards and see that Wyndham Rewards has a linkage with Caesar's.
Sorry for so many ignorant questions! Thank you.
I think the link was posted but it probably got buried. Go to the link below. It will ask you to login. Use your Wyndham Rewards login. It will later ask you for your Club Wyndham member number. Make sure you include the zeros at the beginning of your member number. The link below was grabbed direct from Club Wyndham’s website. So if this one doesn’t work for you, log into your owner portal, and on the main page is link to the announcement. It’s titled “Add an element of awesome to your rewards”.


https://www.wyndhamhotels.com/wyndham-rewards/claim-diamond/cwreachdiamond
 

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Wow! As easy as that! I got the Diamond following your link! I have to educate myself as to what Diamond will get me!
I have never used Caesar's before. I must do some research. I guess I will sign up for Caesar's Rewards now and get the match!
Thanks a lot for your help!
 

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Resorts Owned
A few in SC, VA and FL, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, NY, UT, ME, WI, and TN plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
Yes but at one point (not sure if this is still the case) Diamond was allowing owners to bring their resale points back into the Club and use them outside the collection, provided they buy half the amount of points retail. So if you had 10,000 resale, if you bought 5,000 retail, you would have 15,000 to use in any of the collections. If Wyndham did that, maybe they’d be able to get away with limiting resale. Maybe. I don’t know if that’s still the case. If they stopped that, it might hurt sales. From what I have read, Diamond is not easy to unload. Harder then Wyndham, because of the restrictions. I think they have a deedback program too which probably helps, but if it got overwhelmed, I’m sure they would restrict it or start rejecting requests.

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Diamond's deedback program currently charges $1000 per contract and if you did not purchase from the developer you aren't eligible at all for the deedback program. They have done everything they can to restrict the resale market.
 
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