• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Recent Owner Updates With Tales of Vistana/MVC Merger

iowaguy09

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2021
Messages
188
Reaction score
129
Points
103
Resorts Owned
Westin Flex
Sheraton Flex
Just chumming for any TUGGERS with recent owner updates that included discussions about how the MVC/WVC/SVC consolidation (yes, still speculative at best) might go down?
 

duke

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2005
Messages
734
Reaction score
138
Points
403
Location
California
I was told that current 5 Star Elite will be upgraded to Marriott Titanium.
 

mjm1

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
3,541
Reaction score
1,292
Points
548
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Resorts Owned
Marriott: Resorts and Destination Club Points;
Westin Kierland Villas;
HGVC Flamingo & Blvd;
Hyatt Pinon Pointe
At a recent owner update/sales presentation we were told they still anticipate a release in Q1 2022. No details available at this time and they wouldn’t speculate.

Best regards.

Mike
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,359
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
So many different stories. SVV is all about telling people that changes are coming in 2022 and you will be able to use the Dashboard to book Marriott properties with your StarOptions at a 32:1 ratio to DC points.

The sales reps really have no details as to what or how anything is really going to be implemented. I do think some cross booking function will exist, but how that will happen is anyone's guess. However, one thing to look at is how other timeshare companies have implemented these kinds of things. Wyndham/Worldmark, Wyndham/Shell, Embard/Diamond. There really weren't many changes in any of those systems that impacted how people used their existing ownerships. I suspect Marriott, Westin & Sheraton will be the same.
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
1,189
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
I got completely different (and probably equally incorrect) stories at WKORV and WDW this year. The sales folks know something is coming, they don’t know what, and they are making things up from rumors and maybe-truths that are floating around.

I don’t expect big changes for owners of deeded weeks, there isn’t that much they can legally do. Probably some kind of overlay program, maybe opt-in for a fee, that allows some reciprocal access at six months or something. But that’s just speculation too.

32:1 transfer ratio is a joke. I can’t imagine any WVC owner wanting to use MVC properties at that ratio. Maybe some of the Sheraton properties would find that more appealing, I don’t know.
 

cubigbird

Tug Review Crew Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,725
Reaction score
634
Points
323
Location
Western US
Resorts Owned
Westin Lagunamar, Westin Kierland X2, Westin St John-Sunset Bay X2, Westin Desert Willow, Westin Aventuras
What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued. What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new. I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away. It's a good position to own a deed. Stay tuned.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,359
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
If I'm Bonvoy titanium, do I get 5-star elite (3-star now)?
No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.
 

dsmrp

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Messages
2,527
Reaction score
1,847
Points
398
Location
MI Washington
Resorts Owned
Sheraton Vistana, Waikoloa Bay Club, Hyatt Pinon Pt
No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.

When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?
 

controller1

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2017
Messages
3,042
Reaction score
1,940
Points
298
Location
Tulsa
Resorts Owned
Westin KORVN OF
Westin Nanea OF
Westin FLEX
When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?

When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
1,189
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.
The Marriott Vacation Club elite program is much more generous when it comes to Bonvoy status, and it's much easier to get Bonvoy Platinum and even Titanium at the top couple of levels. So this is a benefit that's likely to improve for Vistana owners as they bring the two programs closer together.
 

rcv82

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
398
Reaction score
293
Points
123
Location
Colorado
Resorts Owned
SMV
WKORV (OFD)
Westin Flex
MVC Trust
GTL
GP8
CWA
What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued. What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new. I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away. It's a good position to own a deed. Stay tuned.

Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week.

For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
1,189
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week.

For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts? I’m not sure they can get rid of it. I need to go back and examine my documents.

If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.
 

MommaBear

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
1,027
Reaction score
181
Points
273
Location
Harpswell, Maine
I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.
 

rcv82

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
398
Reaction score
293
Points
123
Location
Colorado
Resorts Owned
SMV
WKORV (OFD)
Westin Flex
MVC Trust
GTL
GP8
CWA
Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts? I’m not sure they can get rid of it. I need to go back and examine my documents.

If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.

I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
 

sherakay

Guest
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
119
Reaction score
30
Points
89
Resorts Owned
DVC Saratoga Springs
DVC has been changing point values every year it seems like. Re-shuffling according to demand. I doubt there will be much blow back if they re-shuffle SO.

I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
 

daviator

TUG Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
1,346
Reaction score
1,189
Points
373
Location
San Francisco, CA
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKORVN, WDW, Westin FLEX, Marriott's MOC, Abound (Trust) Points
I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to read my WKORV disclosures (I did read them when I bought, but that was two decades ago!)

So this might upend the age-old practice of buying for maximum SOs at minimum MFs. MVC/Vistana could decide that WKORV ownerships that used to be worth 148,100 SOs are now worth 180,000 SOs (just pulling numbers out of thin air) but WDW ownerships that used to also be 148,100 SOs will now be worth only 116,200 SOs because they are less in demand.

So your ability to book at your home resort (during home resort period) wouldn't change, but your ability to use SOs inside of 8 months could get better or significantly worse based on where you own. And perhaps unsurprisingly, in many cases the resorts with the lowest MFs may also get fewer SOs.

Hmm. That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there. I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.

On the other hand, if my WKORV got more SOs and my WDW got fewer, it might be almost a wash in terms of personal impact on me. Once you get to 8 months, it doesn't matter where the SOs are coming from.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Although many people have expressed the belief that Marriott will want to combine and simplify, I don't think it's in their interest to simplify. I think it's in their interest to make things even more complicated. The more complex they make it, the more people fail to use any or all of their ownership, and they make money when they're able to monetize nights going unused by owners. That won't affect TUGgers too much as most folks here put in the effort to learn to make the system work for them.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
1,180
Reaction score
811
Points
174
Resorts Owned
Westin KORVN and Lagunamar
Hmm. That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there. I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.

That's small potatoes compared to "You are investing in a piece of valuable Maui real estate and as you know over time real estate will always increase in value". Mine has 'appreciated' from $45K to $15K in just 16 years :)

I'm also pretty sure when they sold me WKORV-N pre-construction on the premise that all units had ocean view, the model they showed did not include Building 8 which I presume they must have built by mistake :)
 

Eric B

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2017
Messages
5,864
Reaction score
5,442
Points
499
Resorts Owned
Vacation Village, Wyndham, WorldMark, Vistana, Vidanta, Flora Farms, HGVC Max, and some independents
I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010. For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700. Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out. I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.
 

WatsonC2

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
150
Reaction score
75
Points
139
Resorts Owned
Sheraton Vistana Villages, Wyndham Grand Desert
I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010. For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700. Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out. I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.
By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued. Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.
 

rcv82

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2020
Messages
398
Reaction score
293
Points
123
Location
Colorado
Resorts Owned
SMV
WKORV (OFD)
Westin Flex
MVC Trust
GTL
GP8
CWA
By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued. Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.

Yes, agree. But it could also have a side benefit of making some of the higher demand resorts/rooms more available, granted for more points. For example, I will never let my WKORV Ocean Front Deluxe units, with their $3300 maintenance fees, convert to StarOptions, even at 176,700 StarOptions. And it is rare that somebody does (2020 with Covid was an anomaly). Which means they are almost impossible to book on StarOptions. It they we worth substantially more StarOptions maybe I would. But probably not (I bought them to use them).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

DavidnRobin

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
11,812
Reaction score
2,224
Points
698
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Resorts Owned
WKORV OFD (Maui)
WPORV (Kauai)
WSJ-VGV (St. John)
WKV (Scottsdale)
SOs for WSJ VGV have increased twice.
SOs for WKORV and WKORVN OF were also increased.

WKORVN always had 3 view levels - even in preconstruction sales.
(We bought WKORVN OF preconstruction and then rescinded when we found TUG in 2005, then bought OFD WKORV resale)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,359
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
I don't think they can as easily increase or change StarOption values at resorts now. With weeks now conveyed to a trust at a specified point value, I think they are kind of stuck. The points now have to remain the same. They can adjust values to book into a season or certain date, as long as they keep the overall allocation the same within the entire trust, but can't really increase the Options they offer an owner. Perhaps the only ones they could change would be those not yet having weeks conveyed to the trust, like Oceanfront in Maui or WSJ.
 

BuckeyeAndy

TUG Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
9
Reaction score
1
Points
363
Location
Portland, OR
Hi Everyone,

We went to an owners update while staying at Westin Nanea and heard a lot of interesting updates that are similar to what is being posted here. The sales person we talked to said that they expected by Q2 of 2022 that you would be able to trade your star options and convert to Marriott Destination club points and book a Marriott Villa property. Of course, there are no specifics on how many points different Vistana properties would get in the Marriott DVC program. In addition, they did say there have been discussions that the Elite program might have 3 and 4 star owners get Platinum Bonvoy status and the 5 stars might get Titanium Elite. There are no guarantees on anything but the pitch is that you should buy more at the Westin properties (they had availability at WKORV, WKORVN and Nanea) as they will have great trading power in the Marriott Villas program and I assume properties bought on resale might not have the ability to trade to Marriott DVC directly. While it seems there is a lot of speculation in all of these things, it does sound like there will be some changes coming to bring the programs closer together sometime in 2022. Probably best to wait until they materialize before making decisions based on speculation!
 

Blackberri

newbie
Joined
Aug 4, 2021
Messages
1
Reaction score
2
Points
13
Resorts Owned
Westin St John
I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.
I just heard the same thing at Cancun more or less. I inherited a deed for a fixed week (52 in St John no less, lucky me). They want to "consolidate" my ownership to MVC for $15-$24k in exchange for about 150-250k Staroptions. (Options can convert to Bonvoy and Interval, of course) I'm also skeptical that I'll only have the 23 Vistana properties to choose from after the merger, but I guess that could increase the pressure to roll over. I'm taking a wait and see approach while I enjoy my holiday time on the beach.
 
Top