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Recent Owner Updates With Tales of Vistana/MVC Merger

iowaguy09

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Just chumming for any TUGGERS with recent owner updates that included discussions about how the MVC/WVC/SVC consolidation (yes, still speculative at best) might go down?
 

duke

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I was told that current 5 Star Elite will be upgraded to Marriott Titanium.
 

mjm1

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At a recent owner update/sales presentation we were told they still anticipate a release in Q1 2022. No details available at this time and they wouldn’t speculate.

Best regards.

Mike
 

dioxide45

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So many different stories. SVV is all about telling people that changes are coming in 2022 and you will be able to use the Dashboard to book Marriott properties with your StarOptions at a 32:1 ratio to DC points.

The sales reps really have no details as to what or how anything is really going to be implemented. I do think some cross booking function will exist, but how that will happen is anyone's guess. However, one thing to look at is how other timeshare companies have implemented these kinds of things. Wyndham/Worldmark, Wyndham/Shell, Embard/Diamond. There really weren't many changes in any of those systems that impacted how people used their existing ownerships. I suspect Marriott, Westin & Sheraton will be the same.
 

daviator

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I got completely different (and probably equally incorrect) stories at WKORV and WDW this year. The sales folks know something is coming, they don’t know what, and they are making things up from rumors and maybe-truths that are floating around.

I don’t expect big changes for owners of deeded weeks, there isn’t that much they can legally do. Probably some kind of overlay program, maybe opt-in for a fee, that allows some reciprocal access at six months or something. But that’s just speculation too.

32:1 transfer ratio is a joke. I can’t imagine any WVC owner wanting to use MVC properties at that ratio. Maybe some of the Sheraton properties would find that more appealing, I don’t know.
 

cubigbird

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What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued. What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new. I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away. It's a good position to own a deed. Stay tuned.
 

dioxide45

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If I'm Bonvoy titanium, do I get 5-star elite (3-star now)?
No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.
 

dsmrp

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No, it is the other way around. Certain levels of 5 Star Elite with Vistana get Platinum Bonvoy status, all other owners get gold (developer or requalified purchases only). Your Bonvoy status gets you nothing in Vistana.
When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?
 

controller1

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When it was Starwood, a developer purchase or maybe it was 3*, got you Starwood Gold, then it became Bonvoy Gold. So nothing new yet, right?
When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.
 

daviator

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When it was Starwood and as is currently, any developer purchase gets the owner Gold status in the hotel loyalty program. To receive 3-Star Elite requires owning a minimum of the equivalent of 159,000 StarOptions with a minimum of two VOIs. Only 5-Star Elite (649,000 StarOption minimum) gets an owner Platinum status in the hotel loyalty program.
The Marriott Vacation Club elite program is much more generous when it comes to Bonvoy status, and it's much easier to get Bonvoy Platinum and even Titanium at the top couple of levels. So this is a benefit that's likely to improve for Vistana owners as they bring the two programs closer together.
 

rcv82

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What I fear is these flex trusts get devalued. What is currently a week of points today is less than a week of points in any new program, ie: 148,100 options that is a week today is less than a week at the same resort at the exact time in anything new. I agree though a deed for a week is a deed for a week and that can't be taken away. It's a good position to own a deed. Stay tuned.
Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week.

For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions.


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daviator

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Just like with the deeded weeks, legally I think they would have to preserve the value of home options in Flex. If you have 148,100 Westin Flex HomeOptions you own the right to a weeks worth of 2br use at any of the 8 Westin properties in high season. They cannot legally devalue and say now you need to buy more to get a week.

For both deeded and Flex, I believe they can legally change around the value of StarOptions or any other exchange currency any way they want. In my last update (April at WKORV) they suggested the system would likely look more like the MVC system where the point values vary much more by property than with Vistana. This was in attempt to sell Maui oceanfront as that would likely be substantially more valuable in the new system than with the current StarOption values. This suggests there would not be a fixed (say 32:1) conversion ratio. While I think this was just speculation from the sales rep, look at how SPG became much more like Marriott in the merger and not the other way around. And in this speculation the existing StarOptions would go away as they thought Marriott would be unlikely to maintain two exchange currencies. While I’m not a lawyer, in my reading of the disclosures this looks like something they could legally do as long as they maintain your deeded week or HomeOptions.


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Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts? I’m not sure they can get rid of it. I need to go back and examine my documents.

If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.
 

MommaBear

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I just went to a MVC presentation, and for the small sum of $45,000, I could buy into the Marriott club and be guaranteed entrance "because everyone in Vistana is going to have to do this to have access to Marriott resorts". Don't think it's going to happen this way, but I'm sure some people have been sucked in.
 

rcv82

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Aren't VSN and StarOptions in the deed for mandatory resorts? I’m not sure they can get rid of it. I need to go back and examine my documents.

If they do something that disadvantages owners, the whole thing will get tied up in lawsuits, and they know if. So I’ve got to imagine they will tread carefully.
I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
 

sherakay

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DVC has been changing point values every year it seems like. Re-shuffling according to demand. I doubt there will be much blow back if they re-shuffle SO.

I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
 

daviator

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I have three types of ownerships: a mandatory (WKORV), voluntary (SMV), and Westin Flex as a mixture of requalified resale and developer purchases, so all are in VSN. I went back and took a look at the various disclosures for each of these. For both the WKORV and SMV, the documentation is very clear that they can change the value in the network to reflect relative demand. For the Flex, it is a little less obvious, but it appears they could change the network value (currently StarOptions) but would have to leave the HomeOptions as sold. The WKORV disclosures have multiple pages describing the "club", "network", "point assignment" and the ability to adjust network point assignments every year as long as the total points assigned reflect the total units available in the network. It's a long but well written description.

I agree that even if they could do this from the disclosures, they would open themselves up to being sued over misrepresentation from the sales reps even if legally covered in the disclosures. So I think it is more likely that they will use a separate exchange between Vistana and MVC (which they could vary based upon deposited ownership), but leave StarOptions as the internal Vistana exchange. But from everything I read, while they have to leave alone what you bought in terms of deeded weeks or HomeOptions, they could substantially change the network value assignments and not violate the disclosures as long as the total network points is equal to the units available in the network.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to read my WKORV disclosures (I did read them when I bought, but that was two decades ago!)

So this might upend the age-old practice of buying for maximum SOs at minimum MFs. MVC/Vistana could decide that WKORV ownerships that used to be worth 148,100 SOs are now worth 180,000 SOs (just pulling numbers out of thin air) but WDW ownerships that used to also be 148,100 SOs will now be worth only 116,200 SOs because they are less in demand.

So your ability to book at your home resort (during home resort period) wouldn't change, but your ability to use SOs inside of 8 months could get better or significantly worse based on where you own. And perhaps unsurprisingly, in many cases the resorts with the lowest MFs may also get fewer SOs.

Hmm. That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there. I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.

On the other hand, if my WKORV got more SOs and my WDW got fewer, it might be almost a wash in terms of personal impact on me. Once you get to 8 months, it doesn't matter where the SOs are coming from.

It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Although many people have expressed the belief that Marriott will want to combine and simplify, I don't think it's in their interest to simplify. I think it's in their interest to make things even more complicated. The more complex they make it, the more people fail to use any or all of their ownership, and they make money when they're able to monetize nights going unused by owners. That won't affect TUGgers too much as most folks here put in the effort to learn to make the system work for them.
 
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Hmm. That would definitely turn one of the main sales rep arguments into misrepresentation (when I bought at WDW, the sell was definitely "buy here because our MFs are lower for the same amount of SOs" which, at the time, was a strong argument that convinced me to buy there. I can imagine some pretty serious gnashing of teeth by those who are more litigious than I.
That's small potatoes compared to "You are investing in a piece of valuable Maui real estate and as you know over time real estate will always increase in value". Mine has 'appreciated' from $45K to $15K in just 16 years :)

I'm also pretty sure when they sold me WKORV-N pre-construction on the premise that all units had ocean view, the model they showed did not include Building 8 which I presume they must have built by mistake :)
 

Eric B

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I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010. For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700. Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out. I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.
 

Corey Watson

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I’ve only owned WSJ for a short time, but understand that the SOs assigned to specific weeks/unit types were raised sometime after 2010. For example, a 1 BR VGV Platinum Plus used to be 81,000, but is now 95,700. Historically, the speculation that SO values can be changed has born out. I haven’t heard of any that went down, though, which would be a tougher choice for them to make as it would be more likely to really upset owners of that resort.
By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued. Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.
 

rcv82

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By raising the value of some resorts (ie 81,000 for 1 week changing to 95,700 for 1 week) it has the effect of devaluing other ownerships but without the obvious appearance of those ownerships being devalued. Those who own weeks that would now be worth more SOs actually benefit from the moves.
Yes, agree. But it could also have a side benefit of making some of the higher demand resorts/rooms more available, granted for more points. For example, I will never let my WKORV Ocean Front Deluxe units, with their $3300 maintenance fees, convert to StarOptions, even at 176,700 StarOptions. And it is rare that somebody does (2020 with Covid was an anomaly). Which means they are almost impossible to book on StarOptions. It they we worth substantially more StarOptions maybe I would. But probably not (I bought them to use them).


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DavidnRobin

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SOs for WSJ VGV have increased twice.
SOs for WKORV and WKORVN OF were also increased.

WKORVN always had 3 view levels - even in preconstruction sales.
(We bought WKORVN OF preconstruction and then rescinded when we found TUG in 2005, then bought OFD WKORV resale)


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dioxide45

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I don't think they can as easily increase or change StarOption values at resorts now. With weeks now conveyed to a trust at a specified point value, I think they are kind of stuck. The points now have to remain the same. They can adjust values to book into a season or certain date, as long as they keep the overall allocation the same within the entire trust, but can't really increase the Options they offer an owner. Perhaps the only ones they could change would be those not yet having weeks conveyed to the trust, like Oceanfront in Maui or WSJ.
 

BuckeyeAndy

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Hi Everyone,

We went to an owners update while staying at Westin Nanea and heard a lot of interesting updates that are similar to what is being posted here. The sales person we talked to said that they expected by Q2 of 2022 that you would be able to trade your star options and convert to Marriott Destination club points and book a Marriott Villa property. Of course, there are no specifics on how many points different Vistana properties would get in the Marriott DVC program. In addition, they did say there have been discussions that the Elite program might have 3 and 4 star owners get Platinum Bonvoy status and the 5 stars might get Titanium Elite. There are no guarantees on anything but the pitch is that you should buy more at the Westin properties (they had availability at WKORV, WKORVN and Nanea) as they will have great trading power in the Marriott Villas program and I assume properties bought on resale might not have the ability to trade to Marriott DVC directly. While it seems there is a lot of speculation in all of these things, it does sound like there will be some changes coming to bring the programs closer together sometime in 2022. Probably best to wait until they materialize before making decisions based on speculation!
 
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