Rci weeks value of deposit

[vckempson]

Wow, when the facts don't go your way, you're like a politician, just ignore them.

So how's that profit thing work? ... thousands of Orlando trades equals... uhm, $179 times thousands, and dozens of South Africa trades are... $179 times dozens. Let me get my calculator out, cause I'm having trouble with all this high math. Have I got it yet where they make their money? After 29 years as a Certified Financial Planner with a background in accounting I think I get the whole profit thing.

That's exactly what you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge, though. They reward those depositors from areas that contribute significantly to their bottom line. They are very objective about that, painfully and maybe unfairly so, but there's nothing subjective about it.

Anyway, as I pointed out once before, just because the grocery store has lots of coca cola and only a little RC Cola, it doesn't mean that coca cola is not selling; quite the opposite in their case. Likewise, seeing lots of open inventory and high TPU deposit values at VV Pkwy (or any other Orlando resort that always has hundreds of available units) might mean that the weeks are constantly getting booked and resupplied by depositors. While there is always a big supply, (or oversupply as you've suggested) of Coca Cola, the profits are much larger than RC Cola because of turnover. Once again, that's the "utilization" factor that goes into the deposit calculation. When YOU own RCI, then YOU get to have it based on supply and demand only. Till then, their decision is to include volume in the equation.

Do I think RCI is this great, honest company? No, not really. Am I defending Orlando because of my ownership? Maybe, but the Orlando purchase was completed after the release of points lite, because of RCI's transparency. Suddenly I could see exactly where I'd get the most bang for the buck. It doesn't matter to me if it's there or Tim Buck Two. If it changes drastically, goodbye Orlando and hello Tim Buck Two. And again, ultimately, I don't care why I get great TPU values, only that I do, and that it's disclosed. There is some comfort knowing that VV gets just what all the other Orlando resorts get for TPU deposit values. But, if it's all a sham, if it really is because RCI is in bed with VV then I'll have a drink to great relationships and enjoy the ride while I can.

 

[timeos2]

What could be a crazier way to run a company than to take in worthless items (blue weeks that even the owners see no value in) and give out things that have a value (the always snapped up Orlando weeks)? That's what looking to RCI or any trade company to do is asking. THAT sounds like a loser.

Or lets pay way more in value points to a remote, out of country resort week because there aren't many even though we get 100 requests for the in US ones vs 1 for the out of country spot. If we get three we have too many to find takers for so we have to cut the price to get it moved. That is a way for the company to make a go of it?

RCI pays for and hands out the values it is fairly certain it can get. Taking in thousands of European studios or small one bedrooms for high values, if they even existed, wouldn't make sense as the demand for them is extremely limited. Having more doesn't increase that it just means more leftovers. Paying more and requiring more in trade makes no sense when the demand doesn't support it. Thats what RCI spends it's time/money doing - balancing values and demand to hopefully maximize profit and minimize waste. And they do pretty well at it based on the reported figures. So playing games with an area or resort makes no sense at all - and it's highly unlikely to be occurring as it would just hurt their ottom line in the long run.

Makes for great conspiracy posts though. Easy to make the case when you make up the fact to support it.

 

[vckempson]

RCI pays for and hands out the values it is fairly certain it can get. Taking in thousands of European studios or small one bedrooms for high values, if they even existed, wouldn't make sense as the demand for them is extremely limited. Having more doesn't increase that it just means more leftovers. Paying more and requiring more in trade makes no sense when the demand doesn't support it. Thats what RCI spends it's time/money doing - balancing values and demand to hopefully maximize profit and minimize waste. And they do pretty well at it based on the reported figures. So playing games with an area or resort makes no sense at all - and it's highly unlikely to be occurring as it would just hurt their ottom line in the long run.

Makes for great conspiracy posts though. Easy to make the case when you make up the fact to support it.

Call me naive, but I couldn't agree more. Factor in the added transparency of TPU values, where we can all see where the value is, and we're way way ahead of the old days. No longer do we put our precious week into this big black hole, and hope and pray that we get something in return that we might like back.

 

[tschwa2]

I agree too. We can see what RCI gives weeks going in and what they charge to exchange into(tpu's and fees). We can see they aren't always equal. Sometimes the member benefits and sometimes they don't. If the member is not able to get what they perceive as equal or better they will take there business elsewhere. Unfortunately RCI has the best availability going for many places despite the fact that they may not do the best job assigning points for some resorts or some areas. I like II for some areas but haven't found any independents that can give me the value RCI still can.

 

[Carolinian]

It seems to me that you are the one either not comprehending facts or ignoring them. Facts like what RCI employee and longtime Tugger Bootleg told us that VV@P was the resort with the biggest oversupply of inventory in the entire RCI system. Facts like RCI giving 50 points lite for deposit of a VV@P week but only charging 10 points lite for exchanging in to the very same week. The latter tells you what it is REALLY worth. Ditto the fact that for years anyone with a blue week anywhere got easily trade into VV@P most any time, with a few exceptions, that they wanted it. Reason? A blue week most anywhere had the same real value as a VV@P week.

You also don't seem to grasp how a high value week leads to a chain of exchanges and is therefore more profitable than taking in a run of the mill week instead. In my earlier days at TUG, a fellow Tugger laid it out clearly. The rare high value week is snapped up rather quickly, often from ongoing searches (my summer UK weeks, for example,never hit the online availibility of any exchange company I have deposited them with) and if they work the system correctly, they take in another similar high value rare week, that again gets taken quickly and on and on, as long as they take in comparable weeks in trade. These chains of exchanges are far more profitable than taking in a week that sits on the shelf because they already have a glut of them in stock, like VV@P. When they have to give out two rare weeks for that 50 point lite VV@P week that they will eventually only get 10 points lite for, if they are lucky, that is not a profitable operation.

What you also fail to grasp is why RCI is doing this from their own profit motive. It is not internal to the exchange operation but external to it. The other place RCI makes money is from membership fees. The developer is actively selling new owners weeks, points, or whatever at VV@P, and RCI takes in membership fees for its bottom line from those new members. To help stoke those new membership fees, RCI is using its exchange system as a loss leader (since you always want to make retail comparisions, I suspect you know what that is) to rake in those new members. That way of operating corrupts the integrity of the exchange system. If you look at the resorts that are getting hosed on points lite values, they mostly have one thing in common; they are mature resorts no longer in developer sales. It is not at all surprising that in the run up to Points Lite, RCI was sharing info on it early on with active developers and some major management companies but was often leaving the sold out resorts competely in the dark, and that occured on both sides of the pond. With RCI, the term ''sold out resort'' often has a sinister double meaning.

You also keep pushing the retail store analogy which just does not apply to a timeshare exchange situation. The retailer uses his own money to buy his own stock based on his experience of how much he will sell. A timeshare exchange company takes whatever deposits a member is willing to give and has little control over what those deposits will be or how they fit in with anticipated demand. When they are heavily discounting something like they are with VV@P, that shows that demand is not as high as what members are depositing. A fair and objective system would then adjust the value given for deposits downward to their real value, but that would upset the developer in this case, so that is unlikely.

If RCI wants to overvalue overbuilt areas, fine let RCI have them, and owners elsewhere should move to other exchange companies. I think RCI has, probably unwittingly, already sown the seeds of that for high value high season weeks when they started allowing members to combine weeks. This is going to reduce the inventory of high value weeks, as people with two middling weeks trade for them, leaving the high value weeks owners with much less ability to trade like for like. SFX must be salivating at this, for they are the logical exchange company for those owners to flee to. Allowing VV@P owners to trade into high value weeks just piles it on even more.

Wow, when the facts don't go your way, you're like a politician, just ignore them.

So how's that profit thing work? ... thousands of Orlando trades equals... uhm, $179 times thousands, and dozens of South Africa trades are... $179 times dozens. Let me get my calculator out, cause I'm having trouble with all this high math. Have I got it yet where they make their money? After 29 years as a Certified Financial Planner with a background in accounting I think I get the whole profit thing.

That's exactly what you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge, though. They reward those depositors from areas that contribute significantly to their bottom line. They are very objective about that, painfully and maybe unfairly so, but there's nothing subjective about it.

Anyway, as I pointed out once before, just because the grocery store has lots of coca cola and only a little RC Cola, it doesn't mean that coca cola is not selling; quite the opposite in their case. Likewise, seeing lots of open inventory and high TPU deposit values at VV Pkwy (or any other Orlando resort that always has hundreds of available units) might mean that the weeks are constantly getting booked and resupplied by depositors. While there is always a big supply, (or oversupply as you've suggested) of Coca Cola, the profits are much larger than RC Cola because of turnover. Once again, that's the "utilization" factor that goes into the deposit calculation. When YOU own RCI, then YOU get to have it based on supply and demand only. Till then, their decision is to include volume in the equation.

Do I think RCI is this great, honest company? No, not really. Am I defending Orlando because of my ownership? Maybe, but the Orlando purchase was completed after the release of points lite, because of RCI's transparency. Suddenly I could see exactly where I'd get the most bang for the buck. It doesn't matter to me if it's there or Tim Buck Two. If it changes drastically, goodbye Orlando and hello Tim Buck Two. And again, ultimately, I don't care why I get great TPU values, only that I do, and that it's disclosed. There is some comfort knowing that VV gets just what all the other Orlando resorts get for TPU deposit values. But, if it's all a sham, if it really is because RCI is in bed with VV then I'll have a drink to great relationships and enjoy the ride while I can.

 

[Carolinian]

Orlando weeks are hardly ''always snapped up''. On the contrary, there is always a glut of them.

You also take a very provincial attitude as to demand. What the demand is for European weeks from Americans is no more relevent that what the demand for Orlando weeks is from Herfordshire or Burgundy or Hessen. Demand is the total demand worldwide from the RCI system. Supply, likewise is the totality of supply from all sources worldwide.

Trying to lump all of Europe as one would be like trying to lump all parts of the US as one, which is utter nonsense. Just like some areas of the US have better supply / demand curves, like Sanibel-Captiva or the Keys, so does Europe. There are indeed overbuilt places in Europe. The Canary Islands are probably Europe's version of Orlando, but Hungary, Finland, and the coast of Spain are also overbuilt. Places like the British Isles, especially England and Ireland, on the other hand, have very good supply demand curves.

Let me give you a good example. I am sure as an HOA BOD member that you are familar with RCI's VIP program, where they allow HOA BOD members and some management staff to do special trades. A VIP member can get any exchange week RCI has anywhere in the world, except one place, just by giving any week of the same color and size, regardless of trading power. One place in the world is ringfenced where you cannot use VIP to trade in, because the supply there is very limited and the exchange demand from their regular members enormous. Do you know where that one place in the world is? London, England.

You also seem to ignore other parts of RCI's agenda, like pandering to developers to seek new members and using the exchange system as a loss leader to do that, their rental empire, etc. Those bend and distort the way they run their exchange system.

What could be a crazier way to run a company than to take in worthless items (blue weeks that even the owners see no value in) and give out things that have a value (the always snapped up Orlando weeks)? That's what looking to RCI or any trade company to do is asking. THAT sounds like a loser.

Or lets pay way more in value points to a remote, out of country resort week because there aren't many even though we get 100 requests for the in US ones vs 1 for the out of country spot. If we get three we have too many to find takers for so we have to cut the price to get it moved. That is a way for the company to make a go of it?

RCI pays for and hands out the values it is fairly certain it can get. Taking in thousands of European studios or small one bedrooms for high values, if they even existed, wouldn't make sense as the demand for them is extremely limited. Having more doesn't increase that it just means more leftovers. Paying more and requiring more in trade makes no sense when the demand doesn't support it. Thats what RCI spends it's time/money doing - balancing values and demand to hopefully maximize profit and minimize waste. And they do pretty well at it based on the reported figures. So playing games with an area or resort makes no sense at all - and it's highly unlikely to be occurring as it would just hurt their ottom line in the long run.

Makes for great conspiracy posts though. Easy to make the case when you make up the fact to support it.

 

[chriskre]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

Great debate but obviously he can't be persuaded no matter what logical argument to the contrary.

As for me I'm almost persuaded by this thread to buy a high TPU week at VV Parkway and let RCI put their foot on the scale if they want to.

I could use more vacations.

 

[tombo]

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

Great debate but obviously he can't be persuaded no matter what logical argument to the contrary.

As for me I'm almost persuaded by this thread to buy a high TPU week at VV Parkway and let RCI put their foot on the scale if they want to.

I could use more vacations.

So far I have held strong and not purchased a cheap Vac Villages on E-bay but this thread has me seriously considering buying one myself, and I don't need another timeshare anywhere.


I need to keep repeating I am a timeshare addict and I DO NOT need to log onto E-bay for any reason.......

 

[Carolinian]

There are people who believe that Orlando is not overbuilt in timeshare, just like there are people who beleive the world is flat. While the experience of many many timesharers on that should be enough, the authoritative info from Bootleg, and specifically mentioning VV@P as the single resort with the biggest oversupply in the entire RCI system, should be conclusive. But I know that Team Orlando will never give up, so it is like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Carolinian]

I had an interesting email on a point I had not thought about which may be influencing RCI's behavior. The suggestion was that maybe RCI's numbers were skewed by including their rentals to the general public from exchange deposits in calculating ''demand'' which would favor those areas in which RCI had spent more effort building a rental network, such as the US, over areas where it had not done so much on building its rental empire. I can certainly believe that RCI might think that way, and if so it is just one more way in which RCI's rental program is corrupting the integrity of its exchange program.

I tried to get the person who sent the email to post her thoughts herself, as she laid them out in more detail than my summation, but she did not want to get on the receiving end of some of the more strident pro-RCI posters here. I have thicker skin so I don't care. I'll call 'em like I see 'em.

 

[tombo]

Perhaps RCI concentrates on the US because there are currently a total of 68,445 weeks available for exchange in the US, there are 46,846 available in Mexico, a total of 31,490 weeks for exchange in ALL of Europe, there are 9,621 available in the Caribbean, a total of 2,541 available for exchange in ALL of Africa and the Middle East, and downward from there. Perhaps RCI concentrates on where they have the most timeshare weeks built, owned, deposited, and traded for like any smart business would. Perhaps the fact that there are more weeks for trade in the US and Mexico combined than there are timeshares available in the rest of the world combined makes a difference.

Unlike Europe where they have a house with 3 bed rooms and call it a timshare, in the US they build huge timeshares with many 2 and 3 bed units, and the developers sell many timeshares to large numbers of people who will join RCI and exchange. The US is the big dog in timeshares. Most of the US timeshare owners travel mainly in the US. Orlando has a ton of timeshares, but t is one of the top travel destinations in the US, and probably the number one timeshare destination with regards to total number of travellers. The developers built where the demand was. You will not see a lot of mega timeshare resorts built in Kansas BECAUSE THERE IS LITTLE DEMAND. Demand drives developers to build timeshares. Demand is what the US has.

To get a fair and unbiased view of where people are interested in visiting and owning, just look at TUG and the demand for topics of discussion. The US has 5 different sections on TUG to discuss regional timeshares. US eastern has 3832 threads with 34,512 posts. Just the state of Florida (where Orlando is) has 3871 threads with 34,512 posts, Central US has 1375 threads with 9342 posts, Western US has 4019 threads with 35,368 posts, and Hawaii has 2312 threads with 24,613 posts.

Let's look at the demand and interest in ALL of Europe. There is a total of one area to post about Europe timeshares and discussing all of Europe there are a GRAND TOTAL OF 753 threads and a total of 6,445 posts. Every one of the 5 US regions have more interest, more threads, and more posts than TUG has generated on discussions about ALL of Europe. Wake up. Most timeshare people are rarelly (if ever) concerned about travelling to, trading for, or buying Europe resorts. Oh let's not forget that powerhouse and hotbed of demand that is South Africa. There are 645 TOTALthreads and a whopping 4919 posts about ALL of South Africa. If you remove posts about what value RCI places on the South Africa weeks they own, the number of threads and posts would drop drastically since that seems to be one of the main topics of discussion.

If (as Carolinian charges)RCI does have a conspiracy to ignore the demand and undervalue those hard to get exchanges in Europe and South Africa favoring the US and Orlando, then I am afraid that TUG is in on it too. Perhaps TUG is deleting threads on those hard to get areas. Perhaps RCI is paying TUG to reduce the number of actual posts and threads on what Carolinian knows to be the number one hardest to get timeshares in the world. Write your congressmen. Demand an investigation. The RCI bias against Europe and South Africa has been joined by TUG!!!!! It is a worldwide conspiracy between RCI, TUG, and Vacation Villages at the Parkway!!!!! It must be exposed. It must be stopped.

Give us a break. You post on Europe and South Africa threads and the same few TUGGERS and TUG's SERIAL GUEST Carolinian (who for some reason refuses to join TUG) will answer. In fact Carolinian might personally be responsible for the largest number of posts on both the South Africa and the Europe threads.

There is little interest from most timeshare owners on TUG with regards to owning or exchanging for Europe or South Africa. Just look at the number TUG discussions if you have any doubts. Look at the posts about TUGGERS looking for Disney, Hawaii, Hitlon Head, and compare it to the occasional request for info on Europe or SA. And before TUG is accused of being only an American web site, yes TUG is open to all from all countries, and many TUG members are from overseas. In fact as you can see TUG is even open to perpetual guests who blindly believe against all evidence that Europe and South Africa are Mecca for timeshare travellers.

RCI is doing what they should. They are concentrating on their core business and largest income stream, and that is the US, not Europe, and definetelly not South Africa.

 

["Roger"]

I had an interesting email on a point I had not thought about which may be influencing RCI's behavior. The suggestion was that maybe RCI's numbers were skewed by including their rentals to the general public from exchange deposits in calculating ''demand'' which would favor those areas in which RCI had spent more effort building a rental network, such as the US, over areas where it had not done so much on building its rental empire....

This is hardly a new idea. I suggested that much the same was happening ten years ago when Carolinian was complaining about how the Orlando area was being overpointed in the Points system. For the record, here is a different take on the issue....

Orlando is an area where families who own no timeshare often make a lifetime trip for the sake of their kids. (Not everybody can take trips across Europe three or four times a year.) They would like more room than what a hotel can provide. What RCI did (or appears to have done) is set up a "points for products" option within the Points system. (People give up points and receive a cash amount to use for airlines tickets, car rentals, etc.) In essence (the way I see it) is that RCI is renting units and paying the Points owner part of the procedes (taking a cut I am sure).

One possibility would have been for RCI to always rent owner's actual deposit, but that would have been tremendously ineffecient. They would have had to advertise all over the country, sometimes only having a single unit in a given area for a given month to offer. Better to concentrate on renting in areas of high demand for one time rentals (Orlando, Hawaii, etc.)

So now on to the second option for RCI. They could have given low point values to the people in these locations because in the timeshare world (as a closed market) they are overbuilt. Then they could have turned around and made a nifty profit renting in the open market to the general public. In essence, they could have stolen some of the open market value for an Orlando rental from the people who deposited units. They didn't do that.

The bottom line is that RCI (at a fee via arbitrage) has been willing to rent units for people in the Points system. Rather than taking units from whereever they were deposited (and depleting the number of timeshare units in scarce areas), they have rented in those areas that overbuilt from a timesharing point of view, but have a higher value in the open market.

The corruption that Carolinian refers to is that he thinks that RCI should have kept the timeshare system closed. If that had occurred, maintenence fees for Orlando would have been high (the timeshares there are competively luxurious) and the timeshare trading values would have been low (but the system would have been free of corruption).

Regardless of what you the morality (or whatever) of keeping the timeshare system closed, personally, I don't think that was an option. Taking my own case as an example, I am less and less interested in timesharing because in many cases, with the dawn of the Internet (which Carolinian has claimed for years has had no bearing on timesharing), it is often easy to find rentals. Sometimes there are great deals on RCI (if you are willing to go in seasons that often are not that attractive), but often I see rentals for just what I want and are not connected with timesharing at all. In my opinion, trying to pretend that RCI could completely isolate itself from this form of competition would be like ATT saying that it could ignore cell phones because they had built the greatest phone system in the world under Crystal deHahn. (Just joking about the reference to Crystal.)

 

[Carolinian]

TUG is a US-based site. The fact that more of its members post on boards dealing with US destinations is no more relevant in the grand scheme of things than the fact that few posters on European based boards post about US timeshares.

The numbers you post are all SUPPLY side and say nothing about the DEMAND side. Because RCI, and for that matter other exchange companies, rarely have much inventory in San Francisco, Charleston, New York, or London, do you think this means there is no demand for them????

Mexico is another area where there has been a glut recently, as shown by a number of posts by Tuggers familiar with the area. Yet you seem to see it as a high demand low supply area. The fact that a lot of stuff is just sitting there in the bank shows a poor supply / demand curve, not a good one.

You think timeshare developers built where there is demand? Obviously you have not followed prior discussions on these boards on that subject. Timeshare developers build where there is TOUR FLOW, and as long as there is tour flow they will keep building there with no regard to what they may do to the exchange system. If they can figure out a way to still get tour flow in a popular area fpr tours, they will do so without building. Points schemes help them do that. Peppertree / Equivest kept selling points on the Outer Banks long after they had essentially sold out (as weeks) their inventory at their last resort. They told buyers, ''don't worry, you can use your points for summer at the Outer Banks'', even though there was little inventory to back that up. They told the buyers not to worry that the week they were deeded was in the Midwest because ''points are points''. Needless to say, before long they had a bunch of mad points members once bought to trade into that nice resort they had toured on the OBX but were no that their was no room in the Equivest / Peppertree points Inn. Or take Charleston, SC, one of the places that Bootleg told us had a lot more demand than supply in the RCI system. They have a points developer playing the same game there, taking their tour flows, deeding them points somewhere else since their Charleston resort is long sold out, and playing the shell game with them. Points help them maintain sales in areas with high tour flows without having to build new inventory. And places like Charleston or the Outer Banks are expensive places to build a new timeshare.

Perhaps RCI concentrates on the US because there are currently a total of 68,445 weeks available for exchange in the US, there are 46,846 available in Mexico, a total of 31,490 weeks for exchange in ALL of Europe, there are 9,621 available in the Caribbean, a total of 2,541 available for exchange in ALL of Africa and the Middle East, and downward from there. Perhaps RCI concentrates on where they have the most timeshare weeks built, owned, deposited, and traded for like any smart business would. Perhaps the fact that there are more weeks for trade in the US and Mexico combined than there are timeshares available in the rest of the world combined makes a difference.

Unlike Europe where they have a house with 3 bed rooms and call it a timshare, in the US they build huge timeshares with many 2 and 3 bed units, and the developers sell many timeshares to large numbers of people who will join RCI and exchange. The US is the big dog in timeshares. Most of the US timeshare owners travel mainly in the US. Orlando has a ton of timeshares, but t is one of the top travel destinations in the US, and probably the number one timeshare destination with regards to total number of travellers. The developers built where the demand was. You will not see a lot of mega timeshare resorts built in Kansas BECAUSE THERE IS LITTLE DEMAND. Demand drives developers to build timeshares. Demand is what the US has.

To get a fair and unbiased view of where people are interested in visiting and owning, just look at TUG and the demand for topics of discussion. The US has 5 different sections on TUG to discuss regional timeshares. US eastern has 3832 threads with 34,512 posts. Just the state of Florida (where Orlando is) has 3871 threads with 34,512 posts, Central US has 1375 threads with 9342 posts, Western US has 4019 threads with 35,368 posts, and Hawaii has 2312 threads with 24,613 posts.

Let's look at the demand and interest in ALL of Europe. There is a total of one area to post about Europe timeshares and discussing all of Europe there are a GRAND TOTAL OF 753 threads and a total of 6,445 posts. Every one of te 5 US regions have more interest, more threads, and more posts than TUG has generated on discussions about ALL of Europe. Wake up. Most timeshare people are concerned about travelling to, trading for, or buying Europe resorts rarelly if ever. Oh let's not forget that powerhouse and hotbed of demand that is South Africa. There are 645 TOTALthreads and a whopping 4919 posts about ALL of South Africa. If you remove posts about what value RCI places on the South Africa weeks they own, the number of threads and posts would drop drastically. Many of the SA timeshare owners only care about how they are valued in RCI because most seem have no desire to go to the timeshares they own, they want to exchange them for somewhere in the US from the majority of posts I have read.

If (as Carolinian charges)RCI does have a conspiracy to ignore the demand and undervalue those hard to get exchanges in Europe and South Africa favoring the US and Orlando, then I am afraid that TUG is in on it too. Perhaps TUG is deleting threads on those hard to get areas. Perhaps RCI is paying TUG to reduce the number of actual posts and threads on what Carolinian knows to be the number one hardest to get timehsares in the world. Write your congressmen. Demand an investigation. The RCI bias against Europe and South Africa has been joined by TUG!!!!! It is a worldwide conspracy between RCI, TUG, and Vacation Villages at the Parkway!!!!! It must be exposed. It must be stopped.

Give us a break. You post on Europe and South Africa threads and the same few TUGGERS and TUG's SERIAL GUEST Carolinian (who for some reason refuses to join TUG) will answer. In fact Carolinian might personally be responsible for the largest number of posts on the Europe threads.

Just like RCI deposits, there is little interest from most timeshare owners on owning or exchanging for Europe or South Africa. Just look at the TUG discssions if you have any doubts. And yes TUG is open to all from all countries. In fact as you can see TUG is even open to perpetual guests.

RCI is doing what they should. They are concentrating on their core business and largest income stream, and that is the US, not Europe, and definetelly not South Africa.

 

[Carolinian]

WOW! Are you still in denial over the now well established fact that RCI is renting weeks deposited for EXCHANGE that have NOTHING at all to do with points or cruises or anything like that???? Did you sleep through the lawsuit?

And RCI is, in fact, renting exchange inventory not just in Orlando but ALL OVER the US. I have seen plenty of them on the Outer Banks. Look at any of RCI's rental outlets if you doubt that. And I have seen plenty of those on the Outer Banks that are without question exchange deposits. You also ignore the info from RCI employees on various boards that RCI often takes prime exchange deposits given to the weeks system (and probably points too) that have nothing to do with PFD or cruises or anything that would give them an excuse to do so, and put it directly into their rental pool.

This is hardly a new idea. I suggested that much the same was happening ten years ago when Carolinian was complaining about how the Orlando area was being overpointed in the Points system. For the record, here is a different take on the issue....

Orlando is an area where families who own no timeshare often make a lifetime trip for the sake of their kids. (Not everybody can take trips across Europe three or four times a year.) They would like more room than what a hotel can provide. What RCI did (or appears to have done) is set up a "points for products" option within the Points system. (People give up points and receive a cash amount to use for airlines tickets, car rentals, etc.) In essence (the way I see it) is that RCI is renting units and paying the Points owner part of the procedes (taking a cut I am sure).

One possibility would have been for RCI to always rent owner's actual deposit, but that would have been tremendously ineffecient. They would have had to advertise all over the country, sometimes only having a single unit in a given area for a given month to offer. Better to concentrate on renting in areas of high demand for one time rentals (Orlando, Hawaii, etc.)

So now on to the second option for RCI. They could have given low point values to the people in these locations because in the timeshare world (as a closed market) they are overbuilt. Then they could have turned around and made a nifty profit renting in the open market to the general public. In essence, they could have stolen some of the open market value for an Orlando rental from the people who deposited units. They didn't do that.

The bottom line is that RCI (at a fee via arbitrage) has been willing to rent units for people in the Points system. Rather than taking units from whereever they were deposited (and depleting the number of timeshare units in scarce areas), they have rented in those areas that overbuilt from a timesharing point of view, but have a higher value in the open market.

The corruption that Carolinian refers to is that he thinks that RCI should have kept the timeshare system closed. If that had occurred, maintenence fees for Orlando would have been high (the timeshares there are competively luxurious) and the timeshare trading values would have been low (but the system would have been free of corruption).

Regardless of what you the morality (or whatever) of keeping the timeshare system closed, personally, I don't think that was an option. Taking my own case as an example, I am less and less interested in timesharing because in many cases, with the dawn of the Internet (which Carolinian has claimed for years has had no bearing on timesharing), it is often easy to find rentals. Sometimes there are great deals on RCI (if you are willing to go in seasons that often are not that attractive), but often I see rentals for just what I want and are not connected with timesharing at all. In my opinion, trying to pretend that RCI could completely isolate itself from this form of competition would be like ATT saying that it could ignore cell phones because they had built the greatest phone system in the world under Crystal deHahn. (Just joking about the reference to Crystal.)

 

[tombo]

TUG is a US-based site. The fact that more of its members post on boards dealing with US destinations is no more relevant in the grand scheme of things than the fact that few posters on European based boards post about US timeshares.

Well since TUG is US based, why are you not posting on the european TUG equivalent? Surelly with the huge demand for European timeshares, Europe has to have a timeshare web site where europeans can discuss European timeshares like us Americans do on TUG. That is where you should concentrate you educational efforts. Few here care about availability in Europe or South Africa.

Yes we TUGGERS are mainly US based and ignorant to the HUGE worldwide demand for Europe and SA. Yes few here care about discussing how RCI is slighting the greatest timeshare deposits in the world which are located in Europe and SA (according to you). Of course the fact is that there is no equivalent to TUG in Europe in terms of numbers of members (and guests like you) because the US timeshare market dwarfs the european market.

The facts show that few on TUG care to discuss, buy, or exchange for European timeshares or South African timeshares. When is the last time people got excited about a bulk deposit of SA weeks with RCI? Look hard for that thread. I can direct you to plenty of threads where where TUGGERS get excited about Disney and HGVC Orlando deposits. Facts hurt don't they.

The numbers you post are all SUPPLY side and say nothing about the DEMAND side. Because RCI, and for that matter other exchange companies, rarely have much inventory in San Francisco, Charleston, New York, or London, do you think this means there is no demand for them????

You have ZERO FACTS with regards to DEMAND. Please prove me wrong and post your facts about the demand for weeks in Europe or SA with RCI and reference them. You have stated many times that the demand for England, France, etc, etc, is higher than the demand for many US locations, but you never show any evidence that what you are saying is a fact. You have your opinion and nothing but your opinion about demand for Europe and South Africa in RCI.

I showed you FACTS about availability with RCI in black and white. I showed you FACTS about numbers of threads, nuimbers of posts on tug.

Here is another FACT: The Outer Banks was not chosen as a Top 25 beach by Trip Adviser travellers in 2011 even though you act as though it is the hardest trade around. You tout the OBX in most of your posts as an example of high demand locations. The fact is that the OBX didn't even make the top 10 in the US on the 2011 list. Once again your opinions become facts because you believe them to be true. you have no evidence, only heresay and opinions presented as facts.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/TCBeaches

Please enlighten us with facts that are verifiable. Please reference places to verify DEMAND. Facts is facts. So far you have not presented any facts, only opinions. Opinions are fine, but to assume your opinions are always correct and everyone who disagrees is wrong is ridiculous.

PS Bootleg USED to post on TUG. Bootleg USED to work for RCI. Bootleg has not worked for RCI or posted on TUG since the weeks program changed.That horse is dead. On the other hand I did channel Bootleg the other night using a Ouija Board, and when asked if he like the new weeks program, the answer was yes.

 

[vckempson]

Originally Posted by Carolinian

It seems to me that you are the one either not comprehending facts or ignoring them. Facts like what RCI employee and longtime Tugger Bootleg told us that VV@P was the resort with the biggest oversupply of inventory in the entire RCI system...

If you look at the resorts that are getting hosed on points lite values, they mostly have one thing in common; they are mature resorts no longer in developer sales...

You also keep pushing the retail store analogy which just does not apply to a timeshare exchange situation.

I don't discount that there may be an element of truth in what you say. But you are so closed minded to even acknowledge any potential validity to what others are saying here.

I'm not an Orlando groupie, but factually speaking I'm getting TPU's at a cost of $12 each, which is wonderfully cheep. I don't need to defend it, because it is what is. If my reasoning is all wrong, so what? I'm still getting cheap TPU's to trade. Yes, Orlando is overbuilt, but being overbuilt doesn't reduce whatever the actual number of trades or rentals that are in fact happening. That's unknown to us both, but the "utilization factor" is what ultimately drives the validity of our respective positions. Yes, there is excess supply. That might mean it's just sitting there or it might well mean that there's a lot of booked weeks that are constantly resupplied by the available excess supply. That was the only purpose of my coke analogy.

The one thing that is abundantly clear, though, is that VV at Pkwy isn't getting any preferential pointing over any other resorts in Orlando. In looking at TPU deposit values, it doesn't seem to matter if it's 1. an old or new resort 2. in development or mature, 3. large or small resort, 4. well reviewed or not 5. Gold Crown or No crown, the majority of them are all in the same ballpark if you compare similar units for the same week. Thus, even if you are right, it's all of Orlando that's getting special treatment, not just one resort. What does seem to matter, if you want lots of TPU's, is to get a lockout for a valuable fixed week somewhere. Split it on deposit and you'll double your points.

While it's just my opinion, I believe that Orlando is one of the most visited destinations in the world. I actually own weeks in South Africa... never been there, though. Until recently, I've never owned in Orlando... but I've been there 4 or 5 times in last 10 years. That's purely anectdotal, but probably representative of many in the US.

All in all, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'm exhausted and the weekend is here to relax and go have some fun.

 

[vckempson]

One other thing about TPU values. With any formula, there are several inputs. It's not always the same factor that leads to high values. Any one input that is an outlier can skew the final number. If utilization is a high number in Orlando, that alone could account for the high TPU values. If you're somewhere else and the demand input is high, or the supply input is low, that could well be the driver of high TPU values. It's not always the same situation that gives you that extra umph.

 

["Roger"]

WOW! Are you still in denial over the now well established fact that RCI is renting weeks deposited for EXCHANGE that have NOTHING at all to do with points or cruises or anything like that???? Did you sleep through the lawsuit?.

I was simply responding to why Orlando resorts might be receiving the number of points that they do. That was the topic of conversation in my earlier post (and looking back at what was quoted in my post readers can verify that).

 

[MichaelColey]

Not everything is high in Orlando. There are some prime weeks that get great trading value, but there are dog weeks as well. It's the same almost anywhere.

I think there's a lot more market value and a lot less manipulation in the calculations than some would claim.

 

[tombo]

I did a little more research to find FACTS about timeshares by country.


According to The European Timeshare Industry Report 2008, published by the Resort Development Organisation (RDO) and written by The Christel DeHaan Tourism and Travel Research Institute, University of Nottingham, UK, there were a total of 73,540 timeshare units in European resorts in 2007.


http://www.rciaffiliates.com/europe/industry/facts-figures

As of January 1, 2007, there were 1,641 timeshare resorts in the United States. The total number of weekly equivalent intervals owned was approximately 6.5 million.
http://www.vacationbetter.org/content1202

6.5 million timeshare intervals in the US in 2007. Only 73,500 timeshare units in all of Europe in 2007. The fact that anyone can ever trade for a week in Europe should show proof of lack of demand. Can you imagine how hard it would be to exchange for a US week if the entire country only had 735,000 units? With 73,500 you could forget it.

From ARDA:
"The American Resort Development Association ARDA has published:
•A total of 1,767,000 households own timeshares in the US. The number of timeshare intervals owned by consumers in the US is growing at a compound rate of 9% per year! Over three million households worldwide now own a vacation interval, with owners residing in 200 countries!"

So more than half of the timeshare owning households WORLDWIDE are US households. There are over 200 countries with timeshare owners, yet the US has more timeshare owners than the other 200 plus countries combined! Who should RCI cater to? Obviously they should and do cater to their largest market which is the US.

http://wapatotimeshares.com/why-ts-makes-sense_292.html

Facts are great things.

 

[chriskre]

One thing I'd like to add.

If I wanted to go to Europe, I'd use II (which I've done before) , SFX or DAE instead, since they seem to get more European inventory. If I want to go to Orlando, RCI is usually the clear winner with inventory unless I want to splurge with a Marriott in II.

Yup call me guilty but I'm one of those sinners who is renting those oversupplied weeks from any of the nice Orlando TS's.

Interestingly enough I never use any of my TS's to trade back into Orlando, other than my DVC points. I always either use last call, HGVC open season, 9K instant exchanges, DAE bonus weeks or II getaways or AC's. Since I go to Orlando probably 6 or 7 times a year you know that I'm happy that there are lots and lots of cheap options to stay in since I've become quite a bit of a motel snob and won't ever be caught dead in a motel in Kissimmee. Since most of the money that RCI makes off of me is from my Orlando stays, I totally understand as a customer of RCI why they'd thumb my scale at VV Parkway.

 

[Carolinian]

In fact I DO post on TUG's European equivalent, and was a moderator there for several years.

In fact when I looked at the rare hard to get locations and how RCI was underpointing many of them, I used examples from the Caribbean and mainland US, as well as Europe. For some reason, you hate Europe and therefore want to focus on it. You even brag that you had a free trip to Europe and did not take it. I doubt there are many other Tuggers who hate Europe that much.

You still do not seem to comprehend that a supply and demand system is based on the TOTALITY of supply VERSUS the totality of demand. Availibility online is ALL about the supply side and says NOTHING, NADA, ZIP about demand. If anything, it has the opposite meaning of what you try to attribute to it. If things are still sitting around online like they are for Orlando, that tells you that supply exceeds demand. You won't find all those excesses sitting around for New York, San Francisco, Charleston, St. John, or London.

Well since TUG is US based, why are you not posting on the european TUG equivalent? Surelly with the huge demand for European timeshares, Europe has to have a timeshare web site where europeans can discuss European timeshares like us Americans do on TUG. That is where you should concentrate you educational efforts. Few here care about availability in Europe or South Africa.

Yes we TUGGERS are mainly US based and ignorant to the HUGE worldwide demand for Europe and SA. Yes few here care about discussing how RCI is slighting the greatest timeshare deposits in the world which are located in Europe and SA (according to you). Of course the fact is that there is no equivalent to TUG in Europe in terms of numbers of members (and guests like you) because the US timeshare market dwarfs the european market.

The facts show that few on TUG care to discuss, buy, or exchange for European timeshares or South African timeshares. When is the last time people got excited about a bulk deposit of SA weeks with RCI? Look hard for that thread. I can direct you to plenty of threads where where TUGGERS get excited about Disney and HGVC Orlando deposits. Facts hurt don't they.



You have ZERO FACTS with regards to DEMAND. Please prove me wrong and post your facts about the demand for weeks in Europe or SA with RCI and reference them. You have stated many times that the demand for England, France, etc, etc, is higher than the demand for many US locations, but you never show any evidence that what you are saying is a fact. You have your opinion and nothing but your opinion about demand for Europe and South Africa in RCI.

I showed you FACTS about availability with RCI in black and white. I showed you FACTS about numbers of threads, nuimbers of posts on tug.

The world has not changed in terms of supply and demand since Bootleg quit posting, and indeed another Tugger recognized him on a call to RCI so he does apparently still work there. To see that Vacation Village at Parkway still has a glut of inventory on RCI, all you have to do is look at their weeks availible online.

The availibility tables in the European version of the RCI directory, which are based on both supply AND demand DO indeed show that South Africa has a better supply / demand curve than Orlando, and much of Europe does as well, but not everywhere. Overbuilt is overbuilt anywhere, and in Europe that includes the Canary Islands (the Orlando of Europe - red all year, warm all year, a nice place to go but just too much timeshare), the Costa del Sol in Spain, Finland, and Hungary. How can you verify that? Get the European version of the RCI directory. The US office used to send it you if you paid them for it, but since I started posting about those tables, they have quit doing that. You'll have to talk to your buds at RCI about how to get one.

For any area, the key is not whether they are tops of the list of anything. It is whether or not there is more demand than the supply that is in the timeshare system. Anyone who has tried to trade in there in summer knows it has a pretty healthy supply / demand curve.

Here is another FACT: The Outer Banks was not chosen as a Top 25 beach by Trip Adviser travellers in 2011 even though you act as though it is the hardest trade around. You tout the OBX in most of your posts as an example of high demand locations. The fact is that the OBX didn't even make the top 10 in the US on the 2011 list. Once again your opinions become facts because you believe them to be true. you have no evidence, only heresay and opinions presented as facts.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/TCBeaches

Please enlighten us with facts that are verifiable. Please reference places to verify DEMAND. Facts is facts. So far you have not presented any facts, only opinions. Opinions are fine, but to assume your opinions are always correct and everyone who disagrees is wrong is ridiculous.

PS Bootleg USED to post on TUG. Bootleg USED to work for RCI. Bootleg has not worked for RCI or posted on TUG since the weeks program changed.That horse is dead. On the other hand I did channel Bootleg the other night using a Ouija Board, and when asked if he like the new weeks program, the answer was yes.

 

[Carolinian]

Do you think the rest of us are stupid? Your little sleigh of hand in comparing number of UNITS in Europe with number of INTERVALS in the US was not as slick as you thought it was. The number of intervals is going to be about 50 times the number of units. Don't play this apples and oranges shell game. Compare the same statistic, either units for both or intervals for both, not units for one and intervals for the other.

I did a little more research to find FACTS about timeshares by country.


According to The European Timeshare Industry Report 2008, published by the Resort Development Organisation (RDO) and written by The Christel DeHaan Tourism and Travel Research Institute, University of Nottingham, UK, there were a total of 73,540 timeshare units in European resorts in 2007.


http://www.rciaffiliates.com/europe/industry/facts-figures

As of January 1, 2007, there were 1,641 timeshare resorts in the United States. The total number of weekly equivalent intervals owned was approximately 6.5 million.
http://www.vacationbetter.org/content1202

6.5 million timeshare intervals in the US in 2007. Only 73,500 timeshare units in all of Europe in 2007. The fact that anyone can ever trade for a week in Europe should show proof of lack of demand. Can you imagine how hard it would be to exchange for a US week if the entire country only had 735,000 units? With 73,500 you could forget it.

From ARDA:
"The American Resort Development Association ARDA has published:
•A total of 1,767,000 households own timeshares in the US. The number of timeshare intervals owned by consumers in the US is growing at a compound rate of 9% per year! Over three million households worldwide now own a vacation interval, with owners residing in 200 countries!"

So more than half of the timeshare owning households WORLDWIDE are US households. There are over 200 countries with timeshare owners, yet the US has more timeshare owners than the other 200 plus countries combined! Who should RCI cater to? Obviously they should and do cater to their largest market which is the US.

http://wapatotimeshares.com/why-ts-makes-sense_292.html

Facts are great things.

 

[Carolinian]

One other thing about TPU values. With any formula, there are several inputs. It's not always the same factor that leads to high values. Any one input that is an outlier can skew the final number. If utilization is a high number in Orlando, that alone could account for the high TPU values. If you're somewhere else and the demand input is high, or the supply input is low, that could well be the driver of high TPU values. It's not always the same situation that gives you that extra umph.

Utilization is the percentage of something that is used. An area with an oversupply is likely to have weeks going to waste, so their utilization will not be that great.

 

[Carolinian]

I was simply responding to why Orlando resorts might be receiving the number of points that they do. That was the topic of conversation in my earlier post (and looking back at what was quoted in my post readers can verify that).

You make the tired old defense of RCI rentals that they are just from RCI Points Partners exchanges. We all know that this is not so. Heck a Tugger even posted that she found her own summer OBX week on RCI's rental lists and knew that it had been deposited for exchange and had nothing to do with Points Partners, PFD, cruises, etc.