Petition to congress to allow deedback of timeshares

[Jazdddy]

If can take a second to sign petition this will be asked of congress to add to the timeshare transparency bill act in process of being passed which to be honest isn’t really doing much. The bill only says that they need be transparent about the maintenance, and exit solution etc. but could still basically bury a lot of It in the paperwork on uneducated victims/customers… and it still could technically put on the contract they refuse to deedback even after mortgage paid off and the “owner” tricked by the salesman who says it’s the amazing opportunity will be stuck in lifetime perpetual contract of a valueless liability, not asset. We petition Congress to add a mandatory "Right to Relinquish" amendment to this bill.

Sign the Petition

Petition to Congress for Simple Developer Deedback on Timeshares

c.org

 

[davidvel]

I don't see how Congress can force a company to take another person's worthless and liability-ridden property upon demand.

 

[LannyPC]

Issues like this were discussed in these threads:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/p...share-exit-section.357673/page-3#post-2989986

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/p...share-exit-section.357673/page-2#post-2988549

As noble as a law like this would seem, there are many complications and unanswered questions.

 

[Jazdddy]

Issues like this were discussed in these threads:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/p...share-exit-section.357673/page-3#post-2989986

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/p...share-exit-section.357673/page-2#post-2988549

As noble as a law like this would seem, there are many complications and unanswered questions.

i don’t even think of it as noble I just think the law of like assets of real estate and timeshares which have no resale value need be revisited… I think would need couple hundred thousand of the petition signed before sending it to 119th congress that’s passing the transparency bill and ask them to look into adding this, usually a lot these laws are by state. but because this bill is currently being processed to passed through it would be an amazing time if they amended it to really help on national level

 

[Jazdddy]

I don't see how Congress can force a company to take another person's worthless and liability-ridden property upon demand.

If it’s mortgage paid off and they still won’t take it back then the sale was made for something worthless and the contract is null and void because there needs be actual consideration in a contract.. how can it be considered legal representation for them to both sell u something for 40k let’s say and at same time it be worthless and refuse take back. Congress can say that it needs be part of the contract written in for consumer protection

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I don't see how Congress can force a company to take another person's worthless and liability-ridden property upon demand.

Really needs to be done by the states. I could certainly see a state licensing scheme that requires those who sell timeshares to have something in place so that purchasers can surrender the deed back to (the developer, the holding company, some other mandatory creation organization) upon request provided there is no mortgage.

 

[dioxide45]

Really needs to be done by the states. I could certainly see a state licensing scheme that requires those who sell timeshares to have something in place so that purchasers can surrender the deed back to (the developer, the holding company, some other mandatory creation organization) upon request provided there is no mortgage.

The way I see it, no lawyer here, but timeshare companies are now selling products across state lines. Marriott sells a Florida based points product in all other states they do business. Wyndham, Hyatt, Worldmark, Hilton, all do the same. This would, in theory, put them in the prevue of federal regulation.

 

[RX8]

This mentions developer. What happens with sold out resorts? Are HOAs going to be forced to accept all deed backs?

 

[StarSailer]

Trying to force an original developer to accept returns in perpetuity is a bad idea. The petition as written needs work.

Maybe require the managing entity (develop or HOA) to -either-
a) Make a first offer
or
b) Provide sale assistance by advertising the available unit to visitors, guests, and fellow owners.

If an HOA doesn't want to accept the deed they can hand out fliers with available units on market to guests at check-in.

If a big name developer doesn't want resale advertised on site they have to make an offer / provide terms for deedback.

 

[Jazdddy]

Trying to force an original developer to accept returns in perpetuity is a bad idea. The petition as written needs work.

Maybe require the managing entity (develop or HOA) to -either-
a) Make a first offer
or
b) Provide sale assistance by advertising the available unit to visitors, guests, and fellow owners.

If an HOA doesn't want to accept the deed they can hand out fliers with available units on market to guests at check-in.

If a big name developer doesn't want resale advertised on site they have to make an offer / provide terms for deedback.

The thing is how can they sell u a deed of real estate from tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and then when that’s paid off it’s still not a gain for them to take back that’s the part where if mortgage is paid off and owner wants to hoa should have to take back in my opinion bc they are not mitigating damages/ the deed never had any real consideration it was a farce bad faith contract … and purposely holding u basically hostage for valueless deed of maintence there’s alot real estate law about this

but I understand it needs work I literally just wrote it yesterday bc I feel something has to change and the lawmakers of timeshare transparency act I feel like don’t fully undersrand
It even what is happening to so many owners forced w special assessments etc

If u read the petition there’s multiple statutes about this perpetual system that doesn’t jive with law book but to be honest if I can’t even convince you guys on tugbbs I doubt it’ll go much further bc nobody signed lmao well I tried haha

 

[Jazdddy]

The way I see it, no lawyer here, but timeshare companies are now selling products across state lines. Marriott sells a Florida based points product in all other states they do business. Wyndham, Hyatt, Worldmark, Hilton, all do the same. This would, in theory, put them in the prevue of federal regulation.

Because the timeshare transparency act for nationally in congress is currently in process to pass this is an auspicious time to try get it amended for real change in my opinion

 

[TUGBrian]

easier to simply make all sales divulge that there is zero resale value and zero buyback/giveback option available to owners when they buy!

 

[davidvel]

If it’s mortgage paid off and they still won’t take it back then the sale was made for something worthless and the contract is null and void because there needs be actual consideration in a contract.. how can it be considered legal representation for them to both sell u something for 40k let’s say and at same time it be worthless and refuse take back. Congress can say that it needs be part of the contract written in for consumer protection

The thing is how can they sell u a deed of real estate from tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars and then when that’s paid off it’s still not a gain for them to take back that’s the part where if mortgage is paid off and owner wants to hoa should have to take back in my opinion bc they are not mitigating damages/ the deed never had any real consideration it was a farce bad faith contract … and purposely holding u basically hostage for valueless deed of maintence there’s alot real estate law about this

but I understand it needs work I literally just wrote it yesterday bc I feel something has to change and the lawmakers of timeshare transparency act I feel like don’t fully undersrand
It even what is happening to so many owners forced w special assessments etc

If u read the petition there’s multiple statutes about this perpetual system that doesn’t jive with law book but to be honest if I can’t even convince you guys on tugbbs I doubt it’ll go much further bc nobody signed lmao well I tried haha

Sorry I can't follow your run on rambles with no capitalization nor other punctuation. What I can see is that you are just spewing out a bunch of quasi-legal terms that you clearly have no understanding of.

Consideration is not an ongoing thing, it is gauged at the time of contract. Buyer promises to pay, seller conveys the interest. Whether you think it has no value at that moment is irrelevant. Consideration clearly exists in developer sales. You also don't have an understanding of the rule or perpetuities. Totally inapplicable.

So if you buy a car and you think the maintenance, insurance, and other expenses make the car worthless, the manufacturer has to take it back? Same with a house or condo with special assessments? Further, the entity that sold it may or may not exist (they clearly won't if they ever passed such an illegal law.)

 

[StarSailer]

but I understand it needs work I literally just wrote it yesterday bc I feel something has to change and the lawmakers of timeshare transparency act I feel like don’t fully undersrand
It even what is happening to so many owners forced w special assessments etc

Well, lets crowd source a better petition then.

Here is my quick take that probably also needs work.

Petition for Increased Timeshare Owner Protection

1. Where as timeshare owners are not expected to take immediate possession, any original purchase or resale for more than 20% the original purchase price shall enjoy
the right to return for partial refund.
 1a. A refund shall be no less than 80% the purchase price if a refund is requested within the earliest of: 180 days of purchase, or 30 days of first available use.
 1b. A refund shall be no less than 70% the purchase price if a refund is requested within the latest of: 360 days of purchase, 60 days of first available use, or 20 days of first use or expiration of use.
 1c. If the purchase was funded by seller provided or promoted financing the refund shall be no less than the remaining balance owed.
 1d. The value of bundled incentives consumed by the purchaser may be deducted from the refund provided an incentive cash value was disclosed only to the extend that the refund is no less than least 50% the purchase price and item [1c] is still satisfied.


2. Timeshare owners with less than a 1/6th interest in a property shall hereby be assumed to have a right to request buyout by the developer, managing HOA, or fellow owners.
 2a. Owners have the right to request a first offer from developer still selling similar interests at the deeded location.
 2b. If the developer is not actively selling property deeds or rights of use at the location the owners may request a first offer from the managing HOA.
 2c. If the developer and/or HOA decline to exercise right of first offer, they shall provide timely sales assistance by posting a classified listing of the interest for sale in public view of guests and visitors at the resort and providing notice to any owners who have not opted out of resale notifications that the interest is on market.

3. Right to overnight consideration.
 3a. Any timeshare offer shall be valid for no less than 24 hours subject to the continued availability of either the promoted interest or an equivalent interest.

 

[davidvel]

Well, lets crowd source a better petition then.

Here is my quick take that probably also needs work.

Petition for Increased Timeshare Owner Protection

1. Where as timeshare owners are not expected to take immediate possession, any original purchase or resale for more than 20% the original purchase price shall enjoy
the right to return for partial refund.
 1a. A refund shall be no less than 80% the purchase price if a refund is requested within the earliest of: 180 days of purchase, or 30 days of first available use.
 1b. A refund shall be no less than 70% the purchase price if a refund is requested within the latest of: 360 days of purchase, 60 days of first available use, or 20 days of first use or expiration of use.
 1c. If the purchase was funded by seller provided or promoted financing the refund shall be no less than the remaining balance owed.
 1d. The value of bundled incentives consumed by the purchaser may be deducted from the refund provided an incentive cash value was disclosed only to the extend that the refund is no less than least 50% the purchase price and item [1c] is still satisfied.


2. Timeshare owners with less than a 1/6th interest in a property shall hereby be assumed to have a right to request buyout by the developer, managing HOA, or fellow owners.
 2a. Owners have the right to request a first offer from developer still selling similar interests at the deeded location.
 2b. If the developer is not actively selling property deeds or rights of use at the location the owners may request a first offer from the managing HOA.
 2c. If the developer and/or HOA decline to exercise right of first offer, they shall provide timely sales assistance by posting a classified listing of the interest for sale in public view of guests and visitors at the resort and providing notice to any owners who have not opted out of resale notifications that the interest is on market.

3. Right to overnight consideration.
 3a. Any timeshare offer shall be valid for no less than 24 hours subject to the continued availability of either the promoted interest or an equivalent interest.

AI is not going to change this.

 

[StarSailer]

AI is not going to change this.

?
I'm a bit of a luddite here. Are you suggesting I should have used AI?

 

[Jazdddy]

Sorry I can't follow your run on rambles with no capitalization nor other punctuation. What I can see is that you are just spewing out a bunch of quasi-legal terms that you clearly have no understanding of.

Consideration is not an ongoing thing, it is gauged at the time of contract. Buyer promises to pay, seller conveys the interest. Whether you think it has no value at that moment is irrelevant. Consideration clearly exists in developer sales. You also don't have an understanding of the rule or perpetuities. Totally inapplicable.

So if you buy a car and you think the maintenance, insurance, and other expenses make the car worthless, the manufacturer has to take it back? Same with a house or condo with special assessments? Further, the entity that sold it may or may not exist (they clearly won't if they ever passed such an illegal law.)

So how would u write it using statutes and case law btw just because you don’t like how I text doesn’t mean I don’t understand the law you misunderstood bc im is saying it’s a failure of consideration, not a lack of one

Lack of consideration means no exchange of value ever existed, making the contract void from day one (e.g., promising a gift).

Failure of consideration means a valid exchange was agreed upon, but one party completely failed to deliver their side of the bargain

The failure consideration /misrepresentation has already been successful in timeshare court cases in the past where plaintiff won because of it but only on individual cases not in sweeping new law kinda thing


Do u think it’s lawful the current way it is? If not instead of shitting on my intelligence maybe try write something yourself because I never said I had it all figured out

Also perpetuity laws /mitigation of damages definitely are applicable it hasn’t been successful yet in court but it still has been argued upon in the past and given the Right framing it could be successful

 

[StarSailer]

The petition doesn't work in part because sellers of anything need a date past which the deal is done. Even if a statute of limitations was added that doesn't help owners who age out of being able to use what they bought after decades of use.

The pending Timeshare Transparency act is a nice bit of standardization, but it does not address how too many buyers are hustled through signatures pages with verbal lies. Too many sob stories about buyers discovering 2-6 months after signing that they overcommitted and bought more than they can afford or learned only after receiving account creation documentation that they can't book trips the way the timeshare was promised.

My working theory is that:
Short term, owners need an extended partial refund period that is fair to both buyer/developer and incentivizes the developer not to unnecessarily delay account creation.
Long term, owners at sold out resorts need marketing assistance and developers continuing to sell should be incentivized to voluntarily take deeds back.

There should probably also be fairer resale vs retail treatment protection (*cough* Westgate, HICV, *cough*) but that is another mess.

 

[Jazdddy]

The petition doesn't work in part because sellers of anything need a date past which the deal is done. Even if a statute of limitations was added that doesn't help owners who age out of being able to use what they bought after decades of use.

The pending Timeshare Transparency act is a nice bit of standardization, but it does not address how too many buyers are hustled through signatures pages with verbal lies. Too many sob stories about buyers discovering 2-6 months after signing that they overcommitted and bought more than they can afford or learned only after receiving account creation documentation that they can't book trips the way the timeshare was promised.

My working theory is that:
Short term, owners need an extended partial refund period that is fair to both buyer/developer and incentivizes the developer not to unnecessarily delay account creation.
Long term, owners at sold out resorts need marketing assistance and developers continuing to sell should be incentivized to voluntarily take deeds back.

There should probably also be fairer resale vs retail treatment protection (*cough* Westgate, HICV, *cough*) but that is another mess.

I disagree about original developer sellers need an experation date where the deal is done … I think it should be mandated into all timeshare contracts IF mortgage is paid off they have to take it back or something along those lines because if they refuse they’d be admitting it to be deceitful biz practice to sell it…but if u guys disagree you have right to

I understand where your coming from sanctity of the deal ….but timeshares are not like regular real estate or any other asset let’s be honest I don’t even think it should legally allowed to be considered a deed

 

[Jazdddy]

easier to simply make all sales divulge that there is zero resale value and zero buyback/giveback option available to owners when they buy!

i tried to say that just to have zero giveback option but maybe my petition got too convoluted lol .. maybe you can make one …I’ll sign lol

 

[sponger76]

If it’s mortgage paid off and they still won’t take it back then the sale was made for something worthless and the contract is null and void because there needs be actual consideration in a contract.. how can it be considered legal representation for them to both sell u something for 40k let’s say and at same time it be worthless and refuse take back. Congress can say that it needs be part of the contract written in for consumer protection

When you buy a house or condo the developer/seller can't be forced to take it back, regardless of a drop in value. Owning a house or condo also entails ongoing costs, at the very least maintenance/repairs and property taxes. With a condo, there are additional costs usually for employees that manage the overall property. A timeshare is basically a condo, it's just that instead of being responsible for the full expenses attributed to a unit, a week owner is only responsible for 1/52nd of those expenses. Yes, timeshares typically have more staff and other things to upkeep but the idea of shared expenses amongst owners at that location is still the same. Just as with houses and condos, regardless of your personal feelings a timeshare is indeed legally considered real estate. Also, who do you give the deed back to if the original developer/seller no longer exists (often the case with older, smaller/independent timeshares)? All that exists in those cases is the HOA. If you force the HOA to take the deed, you are really forcing other individual owners like yourself to take on the ownership and associated costs. As much as I dislike how timeshare salespeople push lies, I don't agree with treating this particular type of real estate differently in forcing deedbacks. I do however have a *slightly* better view of timeshare companies that do accept them.

 

[rickandcindy23]

What about the owners in a legacy resort? Do they have to pay for these returned weeks, when there is no way to sell them.

 

[Jazdddy]

When you buy a house or condo the developer/seller can't be forced to take it back, regardless of a drop in value. Owning a house or condo also entails ongoing costs, at the very least maintenance/repairs and property taxes. With a condo, there are additional costs usually for employees that manage the overall property. A timeshare is basically a condo, it's just that instead of being responsible for the full expenses attributed to a unit, a week owner is only responsible for 1/52nd of those expenses. Yes, timeshares typically have more staff and other things to upkeep but the idea of shared expenses amongst owners at that location is still the same. Just as with houses and condos, regardless of your personal feelings a timeshare is indeed legally considered real estate. Also, who do you give the deed back to if the original developer/seller no longer exists (often the case with older, smaller/independent timeshares)? All that exists in those cases is the HOA. If you force the HOA to take the deed, you are really forcing other individual owners like yourself to take on the ownership and associated costs. As much as I dislike how timeshare salespeople push lies, I don't agree with treating this particular type of real estate differently in forcing deedbacks. I do however have a *slightly* better view of timeshare companies that do accept them.

Okay now u and Rick and Cindy are giving very good points about how it could be burden on other owners …and that is the other side they string it all together so you guys are right it’s not so simple , I think at very least idea that it’s a deed needs be changed … especially bc it’s like a condo” when it’s rlly not…‘ownership rights is barely by thread especially ones that end up being more an exchange program like sapphire w no real home resorts yet still a deed …& it still makes not ton sense when you look at numbers of how something can be sold such high price and valueless in resale at same time it’s not easy subject that’s for sure


To answer both your questions I think still there’s point in one my original points that if they can tell u buy a 50k mortgage and if U give that back paid off free with 50k paid up and it’s so burdensome toll on other owners then whole thing is sham and shouldn’t exist as is and need be modified in how it’s viewed as an asset


Also the Q of what if original developer no longer around sold to then secondary new one I think they as part that sale would need take on clause paid off mortgage can be deeded back.. again I know it’s not perfect solution I giving and may be even worse than what’s current situation but I still feel the current situation is bad enough that something needs change

 

[bizaro86]

Trying to force an original developer to accept returns in perpetuity is a bad idea. The petition as written needs work.

Maybe require the managing entity (develop or HOA) to -either-
a) Make a first offer
or
b) Provide sale assistance by advertising the available unit to visitors, guests, and fellow owners.

If an HOA doesn't want to accept the deed they can hand out fliers with available units on market to guests at check-in.

If a big name developer doesn't want resale advertised on site they have to make an offer / provide terms for deedback.

I love the idea of making any resorts that don't have a developer taking back any unit for $0 hand out a list of every resale available to everyone who checks in.

That would absolutely shame all the big players into it, because they wouldn't want to flag resales to their potential marks. And for the independents where the developer is gone and the hoa can't take deedbacks that helps flag resales for those checking in, which are probably the best bets to take on units.

Seems win-win, and because of the option isn't making the developers do anything.

 

[sponger76]

Also the Q of what if original developer no longer around sold to then secondary new one I think they as part that sale would need take on clause paid off mortgage can be deeded back.. again I know it’s not perfect solution I giving and may be even worse than what’s current situation but I still feel the current situation is bad enough that something needs change

Once sales are complete the resort is completely owned by individual owners. If the developer is not actively managing the property after sales are complete (often the case) they no longer have any involvement at all with the resort. And if that developer goes out of business and isn't bought by someone else, you are still stuck with no one to deed back to except the other owners via the HOA. Your intent to help owners who want out is good, but your implementation has a ton of holes that I don't believe can be filled. Again, despite what you might wish, it is legally considered real estate, particularly at resorts where people own deeded weeks, and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.