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Palm Beach County Florida - Pools Reopening (Ocean Pointe & Oceana Palms)

dioxide45

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We have an AC booked in to Oceana Palms for Memorial week and got an email today with this snippet;

Dear Owners and Guests:

We hope you and your families are safe and healthy during this trying time. Presently, Palm Beach County has chosen to open several recreation activities within the county – this will include our pool reopening.

Other amenities on property will continue to remain closed as we evaluate the situation, and the beach remains closed.


I suspect this impacts the pools at Ocean Pointe too. According to the article included in the email from Oceana Palms, it looks like Palm Beach County is opening up certain recreational activities.
 
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Unbelievable! How do they expect social distancing rules to be adhered to in pools?

I can understand the desire to open up some businesses in an effort to keep some sort of economic activity going but is there really any requirement to open pools? The US has over a third of the reported Covid-19 cases in the world yet some counties believe opening communal pools is a sensible decision!
 

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I am a proponent of letting people make their own informed decisions. Opening pools in a desert or beach environment with temperatures reaching 80+ degrees doesn't seem unreasonable. People can practice their own social distancing by their seat selection. The sun and pool chemicals will kill the virus quickly, so the primary risk is if you are within 6 ft of someone coughing or sneezing. Oceana Palms also provides beach chairs if you want more personal space. Sitting in or by the pool is a lot safer than shopping in most retailers plus you are getting vitamin D. For those who don't want to take the risk, they don't have to use the pools. It is their free choice!

I'm more concerned about our depleted natural immune systems due to the lockdown policies and gym closures. Let people make their own choices regarding risk/ benefit tradeoffs. I can work out in a well maintained gym, wipe down the equipment and maintain 6 ft. social distance at most Planet Fitness's, or at MVC resort fitness facilities. It has been over 8 weeks since gyms in Ohio have been closed, with no opening in sight. Most health professionals (not academians) would support the fact that the benefits of weight training and cardio exercise has substantial positive impact on immunity, blood pressure and other health conditions. The benefits fare outweigh the risk. I agree that some gyms are breeding grounds to spread illness, but most can be safely opened by establishing reasonable policies and trusting members to do the right thing.
 
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I've been working out at home. A brisk 1 1/2 hour dog walk incorporating hills followed by a HIIT session in the garden using sandbags (phenomenal bits of equipment, no need for racks of dumbells or other expensive equipmen), some battle ropes, kettlebells and a slam ball). I'd say in the few weeks I've been working out at home I'm in a better shape than slogging it out for hours in the gym. The dog walking provides the ideal fat loss exercise whilst the HIIT session covers the cardio and strength aspect and all done in the the vitamin D producing sunshine.

The problem is you can't trust everyone to be sensible and do the right thing. We've all witnessed or read reports of people who think the rules and guidance don't apply to them so at this point gyms aren't an essential business. In fact, since I've realised the improvement in my fitness and strength as a result of exercising at home (particularly with sandbags, the ones with no handles are an absolute beast but there's a reason they're a military staple) I've cancelled my gym membership. There's no reason to go to a gym and cardio and strength exercises can all be performed by bodyweight alone so no requirement for additional equipment.

I'm not entirely convinced that simply being outside in high temperatures is sufficient to destroy the virus. Brazil has a huge infection rate and it's only just coming out of the summer months, plus you have the high infection rates in other hot countries, particularly South East Asia. There's not enough understanding about the virus and its transmission to simply say "sitting in the hot sun will kill the virus", there's a whole world of difference between controlled laboratory studies and real life conditions.

There are too many idiotic and/or selfish people to say that people should make their own informed decisions. It's times like this when people need to be told what to do, like it or not. It is that very reason why places such as South Korea managed to contain the outbreak so quickly and successfully. There were no cries of "individual freedoms, the constitution etc", people obeyed the orders and now they're in a significantly better position than most other countries.
 

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For those folks who are anxious to get back into the pool please use extreme caution. Do not go into the pool if there are a lot of people in it, and be careful of what you touch when entering and exiting the pool.

The thought being that the handrails (or ladders) being used to get in and out of the pool can be major carriers of the Corona Virus.......

Stay safe!



.
 

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I agree you can work out at home. I agree there are advantages to the gym, at least some of them, depends on their features. You can definitely not trust everyone, agree with that. It is true we don't know for sure about the virus, but country examples to prove a point are not too relevant either. I can find other countries that disprove such theories too. In the US, I note for example that the NE and north central states have by far worse stats than the south and west for the most part, and southern cases come in many cases from the North.

I do agree that countries that are not (as) free may have an advantage in this case.

That being said, Florida has actually done well virus wise. While you can say they have a lot of cases, keep in mind there was a lot of influx from NYkers and others in the NE. That has somewhat skewed the data. And add to that, the large aging population. The reality is the stats show 57 deaths per million people in Florida. That lower than Ohio, considered one of the best responses in the nation. I won't compare to NY as I believe that isn't fair, I don't think it's fully understood why they suffered so much. Considering they had so many NE people coming in, and, the aging population, and still have lower death rate speaks pretty good about either what they did, or, perhaps weather, or, not sure what else. While people are loving to pick on them, it's amazing how well they have done. So I don't know I agree that the images shown on TV are completely representative as to what has transpired in the state as a whole.

If I were at the resort and there were a lot of people in the pool, I wouldn't go in. No big deal. If there were just a few, I'd go in. the virus does not spread as easy outside vs inside like a nursing home, way different cases.

I do think summer will bring some less spread. I doubt it will make spread impossible. But I believe it will lower R0. We will never reduce cases to 0 no matter what we do, and at some point, no matter how aggressive or conservative you are, you will open up and cases will go up. There will be risk. Such is life.

When California opens up in 2 weeks or so (phase 1 according to reports), they will be in worse shape than Florida currently is.
 
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I'm not entirely convinced that simply being outside in high temperatures is sufficient to destroy the virus. Brazil has a huge infection rate and it's only just coming out of the summer months, plus you have the high infection rates in other hot countries, particularly South East Asia. There's not enough understanding about the virus and its transmission to simply say "sitting in the hot sun will kill the virus", there's a whole world of difference between controlled laboratory studies and real life conditions.

Of course viruses can spread during the warmer months because people, still spend time inside in air conditioning and in close spaces at home, work, stores, etc. Even outside, if you are very close together, you can get sick. But a lot of studies have shown that most viruses in the air and on surfaces don't do well in sunlight - and there is increasing evidence this new virus behaves the same way. Last week DHS discussed some preliminary research that showed the virus only last a couple minutes on surfaces in summer-type sun. So, while that doesn't eliminate the risk, it mitigates it to a great extent. If people are responsible and socially-distance from non-family members, I think giving people the freedom to go outside to the beach, pool, etc. in warm sunny weather should reduce the chances of spread. It's certainly safer than going into a grocery store or being cooped up inside where viruses can circulate easily year-round.

There are too many idiotic and/or selfish people to say that people should make their own informed decisions. It's times like this when people need to be told what to do, like it or not. It is that very reason why places such as South Korea managed to contain the outbreak so quickly and successfully. There were no cries of "individual freedoms, the constitution etc", people obeyed the orders and now they're in a significantly better position than most other countries.

But the cultural norms of some of the Asian countries are so very different than the U.S. and most of Europe. Even democracies like South Korea are used to a somewhat more controlled, even regimented, society than we are in the West, so it's easier to get compliance. Particularly in the U.S., where individual freedoms are central to what many constituencies see as their core constitutional rights worth fighting for, draconian edicts will likely get less compliance than softer measures that endeavor to educate the public and build a sense of mutual benefit. There will always be the selfish ones who ignore all rules, but peer pressure from others can help with most people. Being "told what do do" is not something most Americans, at least, would accept for a long time. We will be dealing with the virus for a long time, so the faster we move toward getting people to understand how voluntary compliance with basic preventative measures can help ease the more draconian restrictions, the more sustainable the behaviors will be over the long term that will be needed. Just my 2-cents.
 

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Life is full of all kinds of risk. Period. We all have to evaluate our circumstances and risk tolerances and make informed decisions. As many posters have said in previous notes, statistically this virus is affecting a small, high risk group. They need to be protected of course and must be given every medical tool and information to lessen their risk. The rest of us need to go on with life.
 

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This has proven to be a fallacy. Infections and fatalities are being experienced across the board, no-one is immune.

Correct, all age groups are impacted, but the elderly and those with other serious health issues are statistically an outsized portion of the fatalities. According to the CDC, those over 75 are about 60% of the deaths and those over 65 about 80%.

If the goal is to minimize or eliminate all COVID deaths then our economies should be shuttered until there is a vaccine or cure, but the social and economic cost of that would be incredibly tragic as well. We have to find a middle ground that balances the economic damage with the illness and death. We make a conscious decision as a society to accept the level of traffic deaths that accompany a 70 mph speed limit on US Interstate highways. We try to minimize them with vehicle safety and traffic rules, but we could reduce traffic deaths further by limiting speeds to 35 mph. We have determined, however, that the practical and productivity benefits of the higher speeds outweigh the additional deaths. All deaths are tragic, but we balance economic and health considerations all the time for other things. Since COVID-19 is going to likely be with us for a long, long time, we have to learn to co-exist with it in a way that is sustainable over a longer time frame. Continued economic shutdown is not a long term strategy.
 
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Not only that, but, it's false that we will ever have a total economic shutdown of course, there will always be people working. Remember the reporter who asked why couldn't we send everyone home? Well, you can, but we have a lot of people still working. Healthcare, food, truckers, etc. etc. So, it is simply not possible to eliminate the virus as you can never keep everyone home.

Assuming one does get some immunity after catching the virus, then, delaying opening a long time will actually make things worse once you do reopen (unless a cure comes before reopening). There's likely a fine line as far as what is best. But keeping everyone home likely isn't it, nor is sending everyone to work as before likely it.
 

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If the Villages in FL with Thousands of retired residents some of whom are very at risk Octogenarians or older opens their pools then iam ALL IN with this timeshare opening its pool. :cautious:
 

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This has proven to be a fallacy. Infections and fatalities are being experienced across the board, no-one is immune.
Correct. The statement should have been "this virus overwhelmingly has a disproportionate impact on a small few who have pre-existing health conditions." Yes, you could quote examples of outliers where a normal healthy 30-year-old contracted the virus and sadly passed from the infection, but the VAST majority of those impacted are in a very narrow group of demographics of unhealthy individuals.

My view of this is if the local health care system can handle the impact, then a measured loosening of restrictions is appropriate. In the more densely populated areas (like Maryland where I live) we'll have to take a little more time.
 

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I suspect this impacts the pools at Ocean Pointe too. According to the article included in the email from Oceana Palms, it looks like Palm Beach County is opening up certain recreational activities.

I just called Ocean Pointe, they said no pool open yet.

Also - WPTV just featured my little 5 year old hitting trick shots around the house. His name is Cameron, check out the WPTV website or the YoutTube page to see it...super cute! :)
 

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Correct. The statement should have been "this virus overwhelmingly has a disproportionate impact on a small few who have pre-existing health conditions." Yes, you could quote examples of outliers where a normal healthy 30-year-old contracted the virus and sadly passed from the infection, but the VAST majority of those impacted are in a very narrow group of demographics of unhealthy individuals.

My view of this is if the local health care system can handle the impact, then a measured loosening of restrictions is appropriate. In the more densely populated areas (like Maryland where I live) we'll have to take a little more time.
Additionally, recent testing of a broader sample of people (not just those who were sick) show that 95%+ show no or mild symptoms. Death rates have been less than .5%. Hospitals have been losing money due to empty beds and many with other health issues are afraid to go to the doctor/ hospital. Almost one-third of the deaths in Ohio have been in nursing homes. Studies have shown that a strong immune system is the key to fighting off the disease. All of the current policies are negatively impacting the immune systems for a majority of our population. If a vast majority of people don't get very sick, it is better that they get exposed to it gradually over the summer rather than wait to open things up during the height of the flu season when hospitals are needed for a broader range of conditions. Most of the medical professionals I know believe it would be better to quarantine those who are sick or at risk than the 95% who aren't.

Social distancing can still be maintained except in densely populated areas or crowds. I support maintaining the ban on public events, but most businesses(including gyms and restaurants) can open and provide social distancing environment by limiting capacity.
 

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Great topic.

i believe that shutting down everything has been harmful to a lot of people - economically, socially and mentally. I cringe when Fauci says we should never shake hands again. This virus has caused damage in unprecedented ways and much of it because of the quarantine - but I even concede we did need to try and slow it down until we knew more - but we are also getting a lot of conflicting information and you can't trust everything you hear. It is really hard to know at this point.

I think we have to try and open things back up and be a free society. It will take time and if you want to stay home you should. We have never stopped the flu and it kills people and we have always accepted that - but we also do not know everything yet about CV19 and this could be worse than we think. There are 2 opposing forces here and i cannot say either is wrong - but we cannot allow one side to dominate.
 

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I agree that the initial actions taken to slow the spread of the virus made sense at the time until we had more information. The key driver was the concern about hospital capacity being overwhelmed. My concern now is that it the media reports only information to enhance the fear and to get people to conform to their policies. The government health 'experts' are primarily from academia or government, which explains the initial absurd model forecasts. Dr Acton's (Ohio) only true medical experience was during her residency training and internships. Since then she has only worked in university, foundation management, or government policy roles. She recently said that wearing mask should become our new social norm, like wearing a seat belt.

The incidence among hospitalized patients (and deaths) is being inflated due to hospital management pressure to classify cause as being COVID 19 because they get substantially more money for those patients. The currently reported key statistics don't provide the information the public has a right to know in order to truly understand the impact of the disease. There seems to be no consistency between states and the definitions of the measures have been changed. The goal of flat and declining cases is unrealistic since significantly more testing is being done which results in more cases being identified among 'healthier' individuals.

It would be helpful if the following information be provided on a consistent basis:
  1. Separate the 'institutional' cases (nursing homes, prisons, etc) from the general population reporting
  2. Report : Total number tested, total confirmed cases, total confirmed hospitalizations (active and cumulative), total deaths (Don't ever include 'expected non-confirmed cases in these key statistics because that pollutes the data with potentially inaccurate or biased assumptions)
  3. As more test results become available, add a report for those confirmed positives: % with no symptoms, Mild symptoms (no hospital required), Hospitalized, ICU, Deaths
  4. As Antibody test results become available, it will be very helpful to know the % of people who have the antibody in a specific region. Initial results in areas of NY and CA appear to indicate a lot more people have the antibody than expected, illustrating many had COVID 19 without knowing or needing medical care.
I haven't seen any official report regarding the percent of confirmed cases that have no or mild symptoms because testing has primarily only been conducted among those with symptoms. The only information I've seen is the test results for prisons and military locations which appear to show very few people actually get sick.
 

JIMinNC

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I haven't seen any official report regarding the percent of confirmed cases that have no or mild symptoms because testing has primarily only been conducted among those with symptoms. The only information I've seen is the test results for prisons and military locations which appear to show very few people actually get sick.

Popular Mechanics on USS Theodore Roosevelt

NIH Diamond Princess

The best laboratory may be the cruise ships and the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier since all or a high percentage of the people on board those ships were tested.

According to the first article linked above from Popular Mechanics, 50% of the sailors who tested positive had no symptoms. Now that is a very young, healthy population, so it may not be indicative of the population at large.

According to the NIH, of the 634 passengers who tested positive aboard the Diamond Princess in Japan, 328 (50.5%) were asymptomatic, but that was a much older crowd. They apparently did not track specifically which people may have later developed symptoms, so they estimated using some mathematical models that it may have been an eventual asymptotic percentage of 17.9% with an statistical error range of 15.5% to 20.2%, but this is an estimate only.
 

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I cringe when Fauci says we should never shake hands again. This virus has caused damage in unprecedented ways and much of it because of the quarantine - but I even concede we did need to try and slow it down until we knew more - but we are also getting a lot of conflicting information and you can't trust everything you hear. It is really hard to know at this point.

I love it when he says that! Why do I want to touch your sweaty/un-clean hand? We can't just wave or bow or smile?

Don't get me started on the kiss hello! (insert funny Seinfeld quote here).

Also - the quarantine caused much of the damage? Really? Tell that to all the people that survived because we stayed home and stopped buying clothes and eating out for a few weeks.
 

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The quarantine itself didn't cause much of the virus damage, yet.

1. It has been documented in many publications that sending sick people *home* to stay with already quarantined family was a bad idea. The NY governor stated this as well a month ago. It's something some other countries have done much better. By sending the positive test people home with family (does not apply if living alone of course), they almost guarantee they will infect other family members. Just like in nursing homes and other confined environments. So, this isn't the lockdown itself, but the lockdown combined with quarantining at home. Here's one article about this: https://www.vox.com/2020/4/28/21238456/centralized-isolation-coronavirus-hong-kong-korea

2. Too much of a quarantine will mean and very bad resurgence when the quarantine is lifted. I don't think we're close to that limit yet, but, if you kept everyone home till Sept, that would be a very very bad idea. You'll have too large of a population that has not been exposed yet and a very quick rise in cases. CNBC had an article yesterday which stated that a very strict lockdown for 3 months would be as bad as no lockdown at all. Assuming herd immunity applies here was the assumption. It would delay exposure too long. They called a strict lockdown 40% of core workers, and 90% of everyone else.

The kiss hello? Yuck, totally agree.
 

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Popular Mechanics on USS Theodore Roosevelt

NIH Diamond Princess

The best laboratory may be the cruise ships and the USS Theodore Roosevelt aircraft carrier since all or a high percentage of the people on board those ships were tested.

According to the first article linked above from Popular Mechanics, 50% of the sailors who tested positive had no symptoms. Now that is a very young, healthy population, so it may not be indicative of the population at large.

According to the NIH, of the 634 passengers who tested positive aboard the Diamond Princess in Japan, 328 (50.5%) were asymptomatic, but that was a much older crowd. They apparently did not track specifically which people may have later developed symptoms, so they estimated using some mathematical models that it may have been an eventual asymptotic percentage of 17.9% with an statistical error range of 15.5% to 20.2%, but this is an estimate only.
These are very interesting case studies. I find it interesting that only 16% of the total people on the aircraft carrier tested positive after continued exposure to the others on the ship. Only 1 death is also surprising and it would be interesting to know whether there were other underlying conditions present. The fact that only 50% of both samples exhibited symptoms also illustrates that most healthy people probably wouldn't even know they are sick. That compares favorably to the common cold and most flu strains. These studies don't discuss the level of severity or duration among those who experienced symptoms, but other research seems to indicate overall healthy individuals generally recover quickly without complications.

I've watched interviews with medical professionals who have worked extensively with COVID 19 patients and they've said the patient's immune system dramatically impacts the severity of the disease's impact. The challenge is that most people probably don't know they can be spreading the disease, although this is also the case with cold and flu (you are most contagious before your symptoms kick in).

My approach whether I am in a gym or at a timeshare will be to assume I am carrying the germs, so I will maintain my distance and not sneeze or cough near anyone. I'll wear a mask when on a plane or in an area where I'm close to others for an extended period of time.
 

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The quarantine itself didn't cause much of the virus damage, yet.

2. Too much of a quarantine will mean and very bad resurgence when the quarantine is lifted. I don't think we're close to that limit yet, but, if you kept everyone home till Sept, that would be a very very bad idea. You'll have too large of a population that has not been exposed yet and a very quick rise in cases. CNBC had an article yesterday which stated that a very strict lockdown for 3 months would be as bad as no lockdown at all. Assuming herd immunity applies here was the assumption. It would delay exposure too long. They called a strict lockdown 40% of core workers, and 90% of everyone else.

The kiss hello? Yuck, totally agree.
Our immune systems are also suffering due to the greater stress, reduced ability to exercise (especially weight training), lack of fresh air in many cases, and less exposure to the common bacteria that enhance our ability to fight off illness.

No kisses from strangers for me either (my wife is Greek so I sometimes have no choice). I'm OK with a fist bump rather than a handshake.
 

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I am a proponent of letting people make their own informed decisions. Opening pools in a desert or beach environment with temperatures reaching 80+ degrees doesn't seem unreasonable. People can practice their own social distancing by their seat selection.
Yes, people using their own descisions about social distancing has worked so well in the areas where beaches have been opened up. After a disaster over the weekend all beaches and parks in California are being shut down.
 
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