Nursing Home losses

[Panina]

Sadly our most vulnerable were hit hard.

Additional 1,700 Coronavirus Deaths Reported in New York State Nursing Homes

At least 4,813 residents with confirmed or presumed cases of COVID-19 have died at New York nursing homes since March 1

time.com

NJ Surpasses 8,000 Deaths From New Coronavirus; Gov. Murphy Puts Focus on Hard-Hit Nursing Homes

New Jersey has hit a grim milestone in its fight against the new coronavirus as the death toll on Tuesday surpassed 8,000. More than half the deaths have occurred in long-term care facilities like nursing homes.

www.nbcphiladelphia.com

 

[Zac495]

My mother is locked down and safe (so far ) in PA. I miss her a lot. Very frightening.

 

[b2bailey]

This is a sad but fascinating situation.
There are many facets to the idea of including nursing home deaths as part of the general population. First, most, if not all would have co-morbidity causes (or they probably wouldn't have been confined to such care homes.) Second, and possibly more relevant to the situation, I would venture to speculate that many were admitted with DNR on file. Because of these two aspects, it would seem the likely danger to general population is indeed lower.

 

[Panina]

My mother is locked down and safe (so far ) in PA. I miss her a lot. Very frightening.

I can feel your concern and pain. I hope you can see her soon.

 

[Panina]

This is a sad but fascinating situation.
There are many facets to the idea of including nursing home deaths as part of the general population. First, most, if not all would have co-morbidity causes (or they probably wouldn't have been confined to such care homes.) Second, and possibly more relevant to the situation, I would venture to speculate that many were admitted with DNR on file. Because of these two aspects, it would seem the likely danger to general population is indeed lower.

I think the numbers will be much higher in nursing homes, group homes, etc then we even know now.

Just heard on a tv newscast 50% of the deaths in Massachusetts were in nursing home.

Makes me wonder how many of these residents could have been saved if things were done differently.

 

[Blues]

My mother is locked down and safe (so far ) in PA. I miss her a lot. Very frightening.

I share your concern. My FIL is locked down in a senior living center, and he's going crazy. He's a spry and fit 90, though he has COPD which puts him at great risk. He also has severe vision and hearing loss. The latter gives my DW fits, as she calls him 2-3 times a day, and can be heard screaming into the phone "No Dad, I said ..."

 

[Bunk]

This is a terrible situation. I don't understand what happened in New York. New York State and New York City required nursing homes to admit patients who tested positive for Covid-19. You don't have to be an expert to know that if you move Covid-19 patients into nursing homes, a lot of seniors are likely to die. And that is what happened. I believe that these patients were moved into the nursing homes even though there were open beds for Covid-19 patients at the Javits Convention Center and the US Navy hospital ship.

 

[Monykalyn]

This is a terrible situation. I don't understand what happened in New York. New York State and New York City required nursing homes to admit patients who tested positive for Covid-19. You don't have to be an expert to know that if you move Covid-19 patients into nursing homes, a lot of seniors are likely to die. And that is what happened. I believe that these patients were moved into the nursing homes even though there were open beds for Covid-19 patients at the Javits Convention Center and the US Navy hospital ship.

Yes Gov Cuomo refused to allow the NH residents with covid to go Javits (from what I read). You just can't effectively social distance in a NH. Several have some form of dementia that makes it very hard and you cannot physically lock them in a chair in a room either, nor should you ever want to do that! Plus PPE for staff is in short supply. I am still waiting for the first CV19 patient in one of my homes I visit. We've dodged that one so far. Currently creeping weight loss is starting to be a concern.

I share your concern. My FIL is locked down in a senior living center, and he's going crazy. He's a spry and fit 90, though he has COPD which puts him at great risk. He also has severe vision and hearing loss. The latter gives my DW fits, as she calls him 2-3 times a day, and can be heard screaming into the phone "No Dad, I said ..."

Glad he is healthy! Hope you get to see him in person soon. I worry about the mental stress our residents are undergoing being cut off from family. And I'd bet you FiL is going crazy cuz he's bored out of his skull right now (no fault of the center, just can't have the socialization or activities he may enjoy).

My mother is locked down and safe (so far ) in PA. I miss her a lot. Very frightening.

I hope you can give her an in person hug soon! Glad she is safe! I know this must be very hard on both of you.

 

[Miss Marty]

One of the deadliest outbreaks of the coronavirus has been at the Holyoke Soldiers' Home, a state-run nursing home for veterans in Western Massachusetts

 

[dioxide45]

From what I understand and have read, in some cases (many?), COVID patients were sent to nursing homes after discharge from hospitals. They weren't necessarily over the illness and could have still been contagious but were well enough not to need critical care. Who would require nursing homes to take in COVID patients and place those living in those home in harm's way?

 

[Panina]

From what I understand and have read, in some cases (many?), COVID patients were sent to nursing homes after discharge from hospitals. They weren't necessarily over the illness and could have still been contagious but were well enough not to need critical care. Who would require nursing homes to take in COVID patients and place those living in those home in harm's way?

Those who didn’t think it out. Seems many didn’t,

 

[WVBaker]

From what I understand and have read, in some cases (many?), COVID patients were sent to nursing homes after discharge from hospitals. They weren't necessarily over the illness and could have still been contagious but were well enough not to need critical care. Who would require nursing homes to take in COVID patients and place those living in those home in harm's way?

... state directive that prohibits facilities from turning away sick COVID-19 patients, even if it means exposing others to the deadly virus.

In March, officials told nursing-home operators that they would be required to accept patients infected with the novel coronavirus who were discharged from hospitals but are still recovering and in need of care. Not only did the directive strain the state's health-care system, it also put virus-free patients in New York's nursing homes in jeopardy.

Go to FOX news as it may be a little political.

 

[Panina]

... state directive that prohibits facilities from turning away sick COVID-19 patients, even if it means exposing others to the deadly virus.

In March, officials told nursing-home operators that they would be required to accept patients infected with the novel coronavirus who were discharged from hospitals but are still recovering and in need of care. Not only did the directive strain the state's health-care system, it also put virus-free patients in New York's nursing homes in jeopardy.

Go to FOX news as it may be a little political.

Almost all the news agencies and all cable channels have discussed this issue. Political it’s not. Hopefully being it is being reported on, changes to protect the most vulnerable will occur. It just was nuts to send positive patients to nursing homes.

 

[WVBaker]

Almost all the news agencies and all cable channels have discussed this issue. Political it’s not. Hopefully being it is being reported on, changes to protect the most vulnerable will occur. It just was nuts to send positive patients to nursing homes.

I'll take your word however, if they slap me, I'm blaming you.

How Cuomo's 'special effort' for nursing homes exacerbated coronavirus cases: 'They die alone. You can't have a proper send-off'

Deaths in NY nursing homes skyrocket following policy that forces care centers to take in patients with COVID-19.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Panina]

I'll take your word however, if they slap me, I'm blaming you.

How Cuomo's 'special effort' for nursing homes exacerbated coronavirus cases: 'They die alone. You can't have a proper send-off'

Deaths in NY nursing homes skyrocket following policy that forces care centers to take in patients with COVID-19.

www.foxnews.com

There are articles from many states, I wouldn’t just single out one.

 

[Brett]

One of the deadliest outbreaks of the coronavirus has been at the Holyoke Soldiers' Home, a state-run nursing home for veterans in Western Massachusetts

and in many, many other places
fortunately my mother's assisted living facility recognized the threat early and restricted visitation

 

[Panina]

Lack of details: States vary on reporting nursing home COVID-19 deaths, frustrating families

States vary on reporting COVID-19 data on nursing home deaths, infections. Experts say it's crucial to fighting outbreaks. What you need to know

www.lohud.com

As coronavirus deaths in nursing homes skyrocket, House Dems urge Trump admin to track cases

“We fear that there may be hundreds if not thousands more COVID-19 cases that have gone unreported,” Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., wrote in a letter.

www.nbcnews.com

Everything you need to know about coronavirus outbreaks in Kentucky nursing homes

Nursing homes have quickly become one of the greatest hot spots for the coronavirus in Kentucky. Here's what you need to know.

www.courier-journal.com

A good mix better , there are many more easily found in a search, then just posting one to keep it out of pointing to one politician. It is mind blowing that many states have the problem.

 

[davidvel]

I'll take your word however, if they slap me, I'm blaming you.

How Cuomo's 'special effort' for nursing homes exacerbated coronavirus cases: 'They die alone. You can't have a proper send-off'

Deaths in NY nursing homes skyrocket following policy that forces care centers to take in patients with COVID-19.

www.foxnews.com

I am sure there must be a similar story on CNN, but couldn't find it in a quick search.

 

[WVBaker]

Panina
There was no intention to point to any one politician. This was the only article I had read to this point. I certainly can't vouch for the veracity or intent of any news source or story, nor would I attempt to.

 

[davidvel]

This is a sad but fascinating situation.
There are many facets to the idea of including nursing home deaths as part of the general population. First, most, if not all would have co-morbidity causes (or they probably wouldn't have been confined to such care homes.) Second, and possibly more relevant to the situation, I would venture to speculate that many were admitted with DNR on file. Because of these two aspects, it would seem the likely danger to general population is indeed lower.

This is an astute observation of how statistics can not always be what they seem. However, based on what you describe, the risk to the general population is actually higher, not lower if those things were equalized among age groups.

If in fact there are a disproportionate number of people in the 60+ group that have DNRs and other non-intervention orders such as no intubation/ventilation, etc. (which I agree is certainly true), then you would expect a higher number of people to die in this group than if they were accepting all modes of care (although ventilation success for COVID19 patients is under 20%, so not a panacea.)

Put another way, if the olders didn't have these orders in place, they may receive a higher level of care and expect (at least some) better outcomes, lowering the death % in this population. And vice-versa, if youngers had more of these standing orders, you would expect their death rates to be higher.

If that factor is removed from all age groups, then the actual death rate effect of the virus would be higher for youngers and less for olders, meaning the virus itself is more risky (aka deadly) to youngers (all things being equal) than the statistics show.

Similarly, olders in nursing homes are dying simply form being in a nursing home, not being able to get out, and away from others, and being constantly and consistently exposed when someone is infected in the home. Scientists are certain that such exposure leads to worse cases than incidental exposure where your body can then mount antibodies against a much smaller amount of virus. If you put all these people in single residences, and placed a large number of younger people in nursing homes, you undoubtedly would see a shift in the "death rates" toward the younger.

So many variables are in play that it is often hard to tell what is causative and what may only be associative.

 

[Panina]

Panina
There was no intention to point to any one politician. This was the only article I had read to this point. I certainly can't vouch for the veracity or intent of any news source or story, nor would I attempt to.

I understand your intent but others might not.

Early on I was discussing with loved ones nursing homes. It was so obvious to me the wrong decisions.

My departed dad was in a very good one and there were a small number of deaths due to the virus reported. As media noticed now there are 12x more suspected deaths due to the virus there. Sadly when all the numbers are reported accurately I believe they will even be much higher.

 

[Brett]

This is an astute observation of how statistics can not always be what they seem. However, based on what you describe, the risk to the general population is actually higher, not lower if those things were equalized among age groups.

If in fact there are a disproportionate number of people in the 60+ group that have DNRs and other non-intervention orders such as no intubation/ventilation, etc. (which I agree is certainly true), then you would expect a higher number of people to die in this group than if they were accepting all modes of care (although ventilation success for COVID19 patients is under 20%, so not a panacea.)

Put another way, if the olders didn't have these orders in place, they may receive a higher level of care and expect (at least some) better outcomes, lowering the death % in this population. And vice-versa, if youngers had more of these standing orders, you would expect their death rates to be higher.

If that factor is removed from all age groups, then the actual death rate effect of the virus would be higher for youngers and less for olders, meaning the virus itself is more risky (aka deadly) to youngers (all things being equal) than the statistics show.

Similarly, olders in nursing homes are dying simply form being in a nursing home, not being able to get out, and away from others, and being constantly and consistently exposed when someone is infected in the home. Scientists are certain that such exposure leads to worse cases than incidental exposure where your body can then mount antibodies against a much smaller amount of virus. If you put all these people in single residences, and placed a large number of younger people in nursing homes, you undoubtedly would see a shift in the "death rates" toward the younger.

So many variables are in play that it is often hard to tell what is causative and what may only be associative.

"not being able to get out and away from others" is a factor but many of the elderly are in nursing homes because they can't live independently and have physical and/or cognitive disabilities and consequently cannot "get away" from the virus infected populace

 

[davidvel]

Lack of details: States vary on reporting nursing home COVID-19 deaths, frustrating families

States vary on reporting COVID-19 data on nursing home deaths, infections. Experts say it's crucial to fighting outbreaks. What you need to know

www.lohud.com

As coronavirus deaths in nursing homes skyrocket, House Dems urge Trump admin to track cases

“We fear that there may be hundreds if not thousands more COVID-19 cases that have gone unreported,” Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., wrote in a letter.

www.nbcnews.com

Everything you need to know about coronavirus outbreaks in Kentucky nursing homes

Nursing homes have quickly become one of the greatest hot spots for the coronavirus in Kentucky. Here's what you need to know.

www.courier-journal.com

A good mix better , there are many more easily found in a search, then just posting one to keep it out of pointing to one politician. It is mind blowing that many states have the problem.

I skimmed these (with all their evil popups, etc.) but couldn't find anything that remotely said that those nursing home deaths were due to state politicians requiring nursing homes to accept patients who had been ill with COVID 19. Maybe I missed it?

 

[Brett]

I skimmed these (with all their evil popups, etc.) but couldn't find anything that remotely said that those nursing home deaths were due to state politicians requiring nursing homes to accept patients who had been ill with COVID 19. Maybe I missed it?

I don't think you have missed it
(politicians requiring nursing homes to accept patients who had been ill with COVID 19)

 

[davidvel]

"not being able to get out and away from others" is a factor but many of the elderly are in nursing homes because they can't live independently and have physical and/or cognitive disabilities and consequently cannot "get away" from the virus infected populace

Right. My example was only a hypothetical to control for the difference. For example, assuming resources were available, if all of these people in assisted living or nursing homes were in their own home with appropriate care (and ID precautions), they wouldn't be constantly exposed to these other residents.