no more renting-transferring of Wyndham pts. between owners

[Jya-Ning]

I don't know....I guess it feels like I was just a little late to the party and the cops already showed up.

You need first play with your contract, see if you like it or not. You can alway pool point together to make it like 1 in 3 year vacation deal.
I have 84k and play it for 5 years before I add more points, and I mainly use it through internal reservation and for 2 years, I mainly get 2 BD+. At that time, you will know if you want to add another contract or get rid of it.

Wyndham is constant try to make changes, so just add that into your consideration

Jya-Ning

 

[Jya-Ning]

Wow, great analysis. But, How can anyone try to make a decent rental product build on a entity that is constant change is really beyond me. Maybe I am old fashion, I would think any quality business is built on stability, realiable, and quality. Until Wyndham can provide them, there is no way their rental market can real high performance quality.

You sure can make money to just in and out, in that case, who will care about the quality and the brand name. Even their Extra Holiday is push on lower end customer.

At this moment, it will make sure the resale market will be only for people that don't take the contract in. Which means PCC company will rule. And it will make sure most of the resale buyer will not be able to get too much value on its current year MF payment. Again, it favor PCC. If I don't know, I may think they want to help PCC on their resale.

It also kill all family refer in their retail business. Why have mutiple accounts? You can not pool point together

It also make sure push renter to concentrate on get the good/valuable week. Which means home resort will rule. In stead of trying to liquid the product, it make it more illiquid.

It also make sure that you will stay in low point area. Hugh point will mean very possible hugh loss unless you know your life will not changed. But wait a min, Wyndham is changed every year, so hugh points will guarantee you will face a hugh loss.

They behavior like they have monopoly, and is high end product. Alas, in traveling, TS is only one of the options in all the possible choices, and Wyndham is one of the products.

I really can not figure out anyone will take this kind of action in a bad economic situation like that. Maybe the purpose is to make sure there is some point rental value. Just like you close stock market in afraid of it get crashed at 911.

Jya-Ning

 

[lprstn]

Well I am going against the group on this one. I really don't care about them taking this away. Why, because I generally USE all my points. I don't rent them out that much, but when I do I have more than enough guest certs to do so. Therefore, the average person who wants to just use the Wyndham system won't have the desire to run out and sell it.

Let's remember, Wyndham and all other TS are businesses, and their first and only desire is to stay IN BUSINESS....

I mean they can't make everyone happy. First the complaint is that we complain that the resale value is low, then we complain that there isn't enough availability because people where holding reservations til the last minute, then we complain that VIP is a waste of money and is forever changing.

As owners we have a voice, but we have to be realistic and understand that Wyndham and all TS are in the business to make money, and if they see it go out the door with Mega Renters, people renting their points, people holding up reservations because they want to rent out a hot spot at a hot time, then if it were my business, I would try to lock out that abuse of the system if I could.

Even with this, Wyndham is still a good product, in which I have many great vacations with every year, and for less than a penny a point, it is still a great bargain on the resale market, if your goal in buying it is to use it, and not make a big business out of it.

 

[jdb0822]

Its just greed, plain and simple.

By eliminating the rental of points among owners that leaves only one option for renting points... renting thru Wyndham, who just as a coincindence raised the point rental fees. (to $10/k I believe).

The ability to rent points to owners by-passed the 99/129 guest fee since you were not making an actual reservation and instead were just tossing someone your points.

I've only been with Wyndham for a year (resale of course) and I am amazed at just how much they have taken away.

I am also amazed at the continued moves they make to make points on the resale market worth less and less.

 

[ace2000]

Its just greed, plain and simple.

How can you say such a thing... this was all done because several owners requested these changes. Don't ya know???


:hysterical:

 

[bnoble]

I mean they can't make everyone happy.

Fair enough.

But, point me to even one person who thinks this is better. If you can find me even a single person who is happier that transfers can't happen, I might---might---buy it.

Notice that "happier that they can't happen" is not the same as "don't care if they do or don't."

 

[cruisin]

How can you say such a thing... this was all done because several owners requested these changes. Don't ya know???


:hysterical:

They took a poll, and this is what owners want. We have heard this over and over....

 

[joestein]

I know a lot of people are thinking that this only affects renters of points, but that is not the case.

I have an account (trades through RCI), my wife has a seperate account (Trades through II) and my SIL has an account.

We transfer points back and forth between accounts as necessary for whatever we want to book.

All units we book are for our and our family/friends use only, we never rent.

This puts a big crimp in our plans.

All of us planned on going to Glacier Canyon this summer, and I would have to transfer points to them for them to be able to have enough for the reservation. Sadly, with my wife working for Merrill Lynch, they told us that we can't book any additional vacation time until after the merger is finished and new policies are put in place. This is delaying us booking the trip. Hopefully we can accomplish this before they stop the point transfers.

Joe

 

[bnoble]

Joe, I completely understand your situation, and have been thinking about that all along. It would be interesting to know how many other families do something similar.

With a bit of luck, the answer will be "a lot"---because that means there will be a lot of complaints, getting this overturned.

 

[bookworm]

I know a lot of people are thinking that this only affects renters of points, but that is not the case.

I have an account (trades through RCI), my wife has a seperate account (Trades through II) and my SIL has an account.

We transfer points back and forth between accounts as necessary for whatever we want to book.

All units we book are for our and our family/friends use only, we never rent.

This puts a big crimp in our plans.

All of us planned on going to Glacier Canyon this summer, and I would have to transfer points to them for them to be able to have enough for the reservation. Sadly, with my wife working for Merrill Lynch, they told us that we can't book any additional vacation time until after the merger is finished and new policies are put in place. This is delaying us booking the trip. Hopefully we can accomplish this before they stop the point transfers.

Joe

I agree that Joe will be one of many with this problem. This will affect more than our little rental community. The complaints from a large group of owners may be our only hope for change.
In the end, they will actually lose transaction fees out of the deal (we had to pay an extra fee this past year to transfer some points when we were out of transactions - in the future they won't get this.)

If nothing changes, I expect that there will be rental notices on the Forums board offering to make reservations for other people for x cost per point. The guest fee will be extra, of course, unless the rental is one of the few "complimentary" ones the owner has. Those without enough points will need someone else to reserve the rest of the days of their vacation. What a hassle and extra expense.

 

[ace2000]

I'm willing to bet that even the ones that don't think they need the feature of transferring and selling points, will need this feature at some point in the future.

Not wanting to be argumentative, just stating an opinion.

There was a time when I thought that I wouldn't need it. Then, I purchased more points (because of the ability to rent extra points out, if necessary). A person could be busy for a year, health issues could arise, or just the financial option of recovering your maint fees for a year.

This, and the mega-renters dumping, is why I believe the demand for resale Wyndham points is going to be drastically reduced and resale prices will drop drastically accordingly... you would think that would somehow affect everybody.

 

[Snorkey]

no more renting points? Worldmark?

Is this for Worldmark credits/points as well or for Wyndham only?

I thought Wyndham owns Worldmark also?

Has there been any big change to Worldmark with new BOD?

 

[BocaBum99]

I know a lot of people are thinking that this only affects renters of points, but that is not the case.

I have an account (trades through RCI), my wife has a seperate account (Trades through II) and my SIL has an account.

We transfer points back and forth between accounts as necessary for whatever we want to book.

All units we book are for our and our family/friends use only, we never rent.

This puts a big crimp in our plans.

All of us planned on going to Glacier Canyon this summer, and I would have to transfer points to them for them to be able to have enough for the reservation. Sadly, with my wife working for Merrill Lynch, they told us that we can't book any additional vacation time until after the merger is finished and new policies are put in place. This is delaying us booking the trip. Hopefully we can accomplish this before they stop the point transfers.

Joe

What I would consider doing is consolidating all of your ownerships into one account. Not sure how Wyndham does it, but there has to be a way. In this way, all of your Wyndham points are together and you can book Wyndham resorts in any combinations you need without having to transfer points around any more.

Then, I would pick up another ownership like a WorldMark for doing exchanging through RCI and II.

It doesn't cover all scenarios, but it may work better than your current situation when points transfers stop.

 

[timeos2]

It's just not logical or fair

I'm willing to bet that even the ones that don't think they need the feature of transferring and selling points, will need this feature at some point in the future.

Not wanting to be argumentative, just stating an opinion.

There was a time when I thought that I wouldn't need it. Then, I purchased more points (because of the ability to rent extra points out, if necessary). A person could be busy for a year, health issues could arise, or just the financial option of recovering your maint fees for a year.

This, and the mega-renters dumping, is why I believe the demand for resale Wyndham points is going to be drastically reduced and resale prices will drop drastically accordingly... you would think that would somehow affect everybody.

I have only rented outside of Wyndham once. But I do think this change is a negative and have expressed that opinion to the President at the email listed above. I have no problem with a limit on transfers but to cut them to ZERO is wrong. The system was never meant to be a rental bonanza and if limits are applied to that use so be it. But to say two owners can't swap or rent point on an occasional basis is wrong and I think violates the documents we purchased under. Of all the reasons often given for a class action vs Wyndham this one would, IMO, have the best chance of victory.

 

[BocaBum99]

I have only rented outside of Wyndham once. But I do think this change is a negative and have expressed that opinion to the President at the email listed above. I have no problem with a limit on transfers but to cut them to ZERO is wrong. The system was never meant to be a rental bonanza and if limits are applied to that use so be it. But to say two owners can't swap or rent point on an occasional basis is wrong and I think violates the documents we purchased under. Of all the reasons often given for a class action vs Wyndham this one would, IMO, have the best chance of victory.

I am wondering how your deeded week that is NOT held in trust is protecting owners at your resort from this edict by Wyndham. Please help me understand how you are better off with a deeded week in trust vs. Wyndham? WorldMark has no deeds. Everything is held in trust. And yet, they still will have the ability to transfer points between accounts. If Wyndham can just take actions without your approval, please help me understand how it makes any difference if the deed is in the name of the owner vs. the trust?

By the way, I disagree with your conclusion about potentially winning a class action law suit on this topic. Transferring points between accounts is a feature. It isn't a fundamental part of the ownership. There are plenty of point systems that do NOT allow transfers of points between accounts. It's a feature decision like white wall tires vs. all black. I don't see how a class action suit can be won on this topic alone.

 

[timeos2]

The deed and Association documents may be the keys.

I am wondering how your deeded week that is NOT held in trust is protecting owners at your resort from this edict by Wyndham. Please help me understand how you are better off with a deeded week in trust vs. Wyndham? WorldMark has no deeds. Everything is held in trust. And yet, they still will have the ability to transfer points between accounts. If Wyndham can just take actions without your approval, please help me understand how it makes any difference if the deed is in the name of the owner vs. the trust?

I'm not 100% sure that holding a deeded week in this case helps (as I'm sure it does in the Diamond Club system where I can opt out by simply not paying my annual fee one year). What the deeded UDI week does is give us specific rights under our purchase documents to vote for our local Board as well as the FSP Board members. It also spells out our right to "use, transfer, rent or inherit" the rights granted in the deed. Since those rights are automatically tied to the FSP system it would seem to me, and I'm not saying I'm right just in my opinion, that by limiting those rental rights via this system change they are attempting to make changes to my documented, purchased and legally filed deeded rights. I cannot unilaterally separate my week from the FSP system unless the system ceases to exist and I revert to my local, deeded, one resort ownership. In any case it would seem to be a strong legal argument to make.

By the way, I disagree with your conclusion about potentially winning a class action law suit on this topic. Transferring points between accounts is a feature. It isn't a fundamental part of the ownership. There are plenty of point systems that do NOT allow transfers of points between accounts. It's a feature decision like white wall tires vs. all black. I don't see how a class action suit can be won on this topic alone.

Yes, renting is a FSP "feature" and if other resorts in the system don't have deeded UDI rights then they may be able to change the rules. But in this case (which is the same for the majority of Wyndham resorts in the FSP system - there may be some of the newest ones that don't grant deeds but only have RTU) the ultimate basis for the rights I and thousands of others purchased under, as filed with the state that the resort is located in, specifically grant the right to rent as I stated above. Since they choose to tie the use to the FSP system I don't think they have a right to then change that secondary system to attempt to remove my primary deeded rights as an owner. That is the question a class action would have to address if it came to that.

 

[BocaBum99]

John,

You haven't lost your fundamental right to rent any reservation you book on your account. What you've lost is the ability to move one time points from one owner to another. That same owner can rent their timeshare to you by booking a reservation on their account and putting your name as the guest.
So, neither owner has lost the fundamental right to rent out their timeshare use time.

 

[bnoble]

I'm not 100% sure that holding a deeded week in this case helps ...Since those rights are automatically tied to the FSP system

I don't think so. If the Wyndham lawyers are smart (and they are), they have set things up so that FSP is layered on top of the property ownership. I know for a converted fixed week the points agreement is a separate contract (and not subject to deed restrictions). It would be interesting to see how the UDIs are set up, but I'll bet you my next "tour gift" that it's done the same way.

 

[timeos2]

John,

You haven't lost your fundamental right to rent any reservation you book on your account. What you've lost is the ability to move one time points from one owner to another. That same owner can rent their timeshare to you by booking a reservation on their account and putting your name as the guest.
So, neither owner has lost the fundamental right to rent out their timeshare use time.

As usual it gets down to interpretation and what was intended. That's why any "slam dunk" lawsuit usually isn't. I would make a case for the points as the primary facility for use being part of the intended use/transfer/rent/inherit while Wyndham may say "week" or reservation - that would be the battle ground if it happened. Who knows who would prevail? In any case I don't like the change and will do what little I can to fight it.

 

[Jya-Ning]

Wyndham only. Don't try to give them any excuse to say there are WM owner ask for it.

Jya-Ning

 

[Sandy VDH]

and just for clarification this is renting from other owners, so basically transfering points, it does not eliminate renting points from Wyndham.

 

[joestein]

What I would consider doing is consolidating all of your ownerships into one account. Not sure how Wyndham does it, but there has to be a way. In this way, all of your Wyndham points are together and you can book Wyndham resorts in any combinations you need without having to transfer points around any more.

Then, I would pick up another ownership like a WorldMark for doing exchanging through RCI and II.

It doesn't cover all scenarios, but it may work better than your current situation when points transfers stop.

I am not sure if we could combine the accounts since the ownership of each account is different, plus the access to both II and RCI is a big plus.

I don't think I want to invest anything more in TS at this time, especially ones connected to Wyndham. Plus, bonuses and raises are not going to be too good this year.


Joe

 

[DaveHenry]

Would this get Wyndham's attention?

Why don't we get their attention by hitting them where it hurts -- by stating that we plan to educate their uninformed sales prospects? Why don't we all write to the CEO of Wyndham saying that, because of these changes, we will take it upon ourselves to warn at least thirty people about Wyndham's actions and not to buy from Wyndham each time we visit a Wyndham resort? That we will accept offers to Wyndham presentation and talk about Wyndham's rip-off actions in a loud voice in the waiting room?

The threat of a lot of anti-Wyndham PR people might get their attention fast, since we have access to the people that they want to turn into suckers.

 

[timeos2]

If Wyndham had an once of sense they'd support resales. But no..

Why don't we get their attention by hitting them where it hurts -- by stating that we plan to educate their uninformed sales prospects? Why don't we all write to the CEO of Wyndham saying that, because of these changes, we will take it upon ourselves to warn at least thirty people about Wyndham's actions and not to buy from Wyndham each time we visit a Wyndham resort? That we will accept offers to Wyndham presentation and talk about Wyndham's rip-off actions in a loud voice in the waiting room?

The threat of a lot of anti-Wyndham PR people might get their attention fast, since we have access to the people that they want to turn into suckers.

To this moment in time Wyndham hasn't shown the slightest common sense about any move they have made. This is the latest in boneheaded changes I assume are supposed to help sales, but ends up hurting as even the slightly informed get word to avoid retail. Just another one of many to ensure the word gets out to all potential suckers. Don't threaten, just do it! Eventually the word will have to get through that they have to change their ways or go bust (for new sales).

 

[donnaval]

I doubt there will be any outcry over this, except from a few of us die-hard regulars who read here and the other boards.

A couple of years ago, Wyndham took away the right to put the WEEK YOU OWN into RCI. This move affected every single owner who ever purchased a deed with an underlying unit, and except for a few folks who spoke out, there was nothing more than a collective shrug over it.

Transferring points--feh. I have to believe a lot fewer owners transfer points than deposit into RCI, so don't consider it likely that any groundswell of outrage will occur. I've transferred a lot, in both directions, and it infuriates me that this valuable feature is being stolen from me. I'll be vocal and complain a lot but I don't expect my voice will be given any more attention than it has been in the past.

I purchased Wyndham, then Fairfield, a little over three years ago after taking a lot of time and effort to educate myself, and was confident I picked the right fit for me. It fit great for a year, but through no action of my own it is turning into restrictive, expensive money sink instead of the flexible, enjoyable and affordable system I purchased.

What would happen if some of us disgruntled owners formed a corporation and "sold" all our unwanted weeks to it, and let the corporation go bankrupt?