[ 2017 ] New Westin Flex

[DannyTS]

I suspect many of the people who book 51-52 to rent them out because they fetch great rental price. Competition for the same weeks is what is causing the difficulty in booking them.

Like you, we just absolutely love the color of the water, incredible infinity pools, and the hospitality of the locals. We never had bad service at Oceano where we ate most of our breakfast or restaurants around the resort, we always enjoyed our stays.

I would add: a great location (arguably the best in Cancun for a non all inclusive) across the La isla mall and near so many restaurants, good wifi throuout the resort (even on the beach on spots relatively far from the hotel), a great layout (not too cramped, not too spread out), most condos have great OV, relatively inexpensive peso, I can go on and on.

 

[blondietink]

Count us in as happy Lagunamar owners, but we would never want to go there weeks 51=52 or spring break times. We just aren't into those kinds of crowds anywhere. I suspect, and could be wrong, that as the Cancun resort conversion comes online, some of the difficulty booking Lagunamar might subside. However, the location of the Cancun Resort is not in their favor as it is far away from everything where Lagunamar is in the middle of everything . Again, just my opinion. I would like to try the ocean/cove swimming at the Cancun resort, though, so might book a few days there on our next visit unless there is some reciprocal benefits between the resorts.

 

[canesfan]

Personally I think booking any of our properties for weeks 51 & 52 is a gamble. They are high demand and at the end of the year. You risk passing up reserving other weeks to book the end of the year to possibly not get the prime week. One year (long ago) I tried to do it for WSJ. Never again! We like to do WSJ in the winter months and I let all those months go by where I could’ve reserved to wait for that holiday week reservation that I didn’t get. It had absolutely nothing to do with Flex as it wasn’t created then.


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[iqmavin]

I'm not surprised - since they made Nanea a Flex resort, it was only a matter of time before they created a new group.

This is a way for VSE to repackage Westin Mission Hills which is struggling as a voluntary resort with high maintenance fees.

During the 12-8 month owner's priority period, Flex owners will only be able to exchange for reservations in the flex pool - not the deeded weeks inventory that already belongs to owners.

From the start, this will really impact Nanea, because all Nanea reservations will be available to everyone in this group during the owner's reservation period. But at least to begin with, it shouldn't impact the other 3 Hawaii resorts as much. But eventually, as more and more deeds are sucked into the Flex pool inventory, there will be less and less Staroption availability.

(If I was a Nanea owner, I would be be po'd about this!)

It will probably mean that after Jan. 4th, you will only be able to buy FlexOptions from the developer at the 6 resorts in this group, but you can still buy deeded weeks on the resale market. However, it may mean that VSE will actively pursue more resales, or exercise ROFR more often, to acquire inventory for the Flex Pool.

As Robert said, this is a bad deal for owners/buyers, and a good deal for VSE.

 

[iqmavin]

Aloha

your advice has been helpful in the past. Thought I’d impose on you again.

I just sat through an update at desert willows. We own off peak 56000 options. We also own St Johns that we purchased after market at a very low price for 196900. Today’s offer is for 15k new money we up our options at desert willow to 68000 flex and they grand father or WSJ into network. They also will give us 36000 options. Like the idea of getting St John into network. First time in awhile we’ve actually considered spending new money.

‘also like the idea of being able to buy hotel points at a discounted rate 330000 for 2275. Sitting on the fence on this. Insights?

 

[taterhed]

Just got back from an owner update at WMH. ............
Thanks for all of your insight!!

Don't forget: Marriotts in the area (if you also like the desert Marriotts) are also very inexpensive, trade with II preference, can be locked-off and 2 for 1 on exchange, etc.....Yeah, the MF's are not great, but for what they can trade to...it's a bargain on lock-off and retrade. IMHO.

Resale legacy Marriott weeks are great traders that will get you great trades when others won't (get the Marriotts on preference).

Buying cheap for SO's (bella) I understand. Buying for the desert (WDW) because that's the only place you want to be....I get it.
Flex?

Not so much.

 

[jabberwocky]

Not really sure how a flex discussion ended up talking about MVC.

I just talked my BIL out of doing exactly this. He was going to buy a fixed Marriott desert week. It would have had great trading power and he could have easily locked off for two weeks exchange.

He usually likes to go to the CA desert in summer so would have been trading for those. When I showed him the II getaway rates for a 2BR in summer he decided not to go ahead. After exchange fees + MF he is better off by around $800-1000 to go the getaway route.

Don't forget: Marriotts in the area (if you also like the desert Marriotts) are also very inexpensive, trade with II preference, can be locked-off and 2 for 1 on exchange, etc.....Yeah, the MF's are not great, but for what they can trade to...it's a bargain on lock-off and retrade. IMHO.

Resale legacy Marriott weeks are great traders that will get you great trades when others won't (get the Marriotts on preference).

Buying cheap for SO's (bella) I understand. Buying for the desert (WDW) because that's the only place you want to be....I get it.
Flex?

Not so much.

 

[jabberwocky]

What phase do you own at WSJ?

Assuming it isn’t mandatory I don’t really see much value in bringing it into VSN as it has a high MF/SO ratio so not really great for trading unless you are wanting Maui.

I’m assuming you have a 2BR WDW worth 56.3k options which is a gold (low season) week. As such it will have a high MF/SO ratio of over $0.03/SO.

Flex would be around $0.02/Option and would give you access to Hawaii as well. So over time this could make sense depending on how you will use it (additional flexibility) and how much future runway you have for vacations.

a couple of suggestions:

- you could lower your purchase price slightly by going to 67,100 options - 68,000 is an awkward number and doesn’t really align with most weeks in the calendar so you might have a few options wasted each year.

- if you are paying $15k this would allow you to retro in another voluntary property in addition to your WSJ. You could take a look at picking up a cheap MF/SO property that would also be a good trader. I don’t know if you have future plans for increasing your SO but it might be something to consider.

Aloha

your advice has been helpful in the past. Thought I’d impose on you again.

I just sat through an update at desert willows. We own off peak 56000 options. We also own St Johns that we purchased after market at a very low price for 196900. Today’s offer is for 15k new money we up our options at desert willow to 68000 flex and they grand father or WSJ into network. They also will give us 36000 options. Like the idea of getting St John into network. First time in awhile we’ve actually considered spending new money.

‘also like the idea of being able to buy hotel points at a discounted rate 330000 for 2275. Sitting on the fence on this. Insights?

 

[taterhed]

Just got back from an owner update at WMH. We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year. I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."

As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV. Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip. Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.

When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response. Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.

I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.

We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.

After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?" I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network. Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.

But I have to say that every time I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership. However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem. It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much. Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.

All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX? They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself. While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."

So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?

Thanks for all of your insight!!

Not really sure how a flex discussion ended up talking about MVC.

I just talked my BIL out of doing exactly this. He was going to buy a fixed Marriott desert week. It would have had great trading power and he could have easily locked off for two weeks exchange.

He usually likes to go to the CA desert in summer so would have been trading for those. When I showed him the II getaway rates for a 2BR in summer he decided not to go ahead. After exchange fees + MF he is better off by around $800-1000 to go the getaway route.

@jabberwocky
@mig1


The OP discussed buying a mandatory Westin to access the resorts they like in those areas.
I was suggesting that a Marriott purchase might provide the same ability to use/trade within the MVC legacy network--just as an alternative to a Westin Mandatory; with a much larger network.
Both Mandatory SO trading and Marriott preference Interval trading would be good options for the California/Arizona/Hawaii areas.

Both are much better than FLEX. IMO

I'm quite sure that ANYBODY can trade just about anything into the dessert 'hell weeks.' I'm sure the Getaways are scary cheap. If that's your bag....go for it on Getaway heaven.

I'm a Marriott/Westin owner. Great combo for the 3*++ timeshares.

 

[iqmavin]

What phase do you own at WSJ?

Assuming it isn’t mandatory I don’t really see much value in bringing it into VSN as it has a high MF/SO ratio so not really great for trading unless you are wanting Maui.

I’m assuming you have a 2BR WDW worth 56.3k options which is a gold (low season) week. As such it will have a high MF/SO ratio of over $0.03/SO.

Flex would be around $0.02/Option and would give you access to Hawaii as well. So over time this could make sense depending on how you will use it (additional flexibility) and how much future runway you have for vacations.

a couple of suggestions:

- you could lower your purchase price slightly by going to 67,100 options - 68,000 is an awkward number and doesn’t really align with most weeks in the calendar so you might have a few options wasted each year.

- if you are paying $15k this would allow you to retro in another voluntary property in addition to your WSJ. You could take a look at picking up a cheap MF/SO property that would also be a good trader. I don’t know if you have future plans for increasing your SO but it might be something to consider.

I appreciate your insights. The WSJ is a mandatory property at 196900 SO that convert to 318000 BP.

 

[DavidnRobin]

VSE Sales is no longer taking back WSJ to convert to Westin Flex. They were in Sept.
They are still taking back WKORV/N, WKV, and WPORV (and others?), but not WSJ.
The squeeze is on folks. Why take them back when they will be getting them back in foreclosures?

 

[dioxide45]

VSE Sales is no longer taking back WSJ to convert to Westin Flex. They were in Sept.
They are still taking back WKORV/N, WKV, and WPORV (and others?), but not WSJ.
The squeeze is on folks. Why take them back when they will be getting them back in foreclosures?

Is WSJ even in Westin Flex yet? I wasn't aware that they had conveyed any USVI weeks to the Flex trust. It would also be more expensive to take weeks back via foreclosure than it would through deedback, so that doesn't make any sense.

 

[DavidnRobin]

Is WSJ even in Westin Flex yet? I wasn't aware that they had conveyed any USVI weeks to the Flex trust. It would also be more expensive to take weeks back via foreclosure than it would through deedback, so that doesn't make any sense.

In 2 separate Owners Updates they offered to take back any of our VSE VOIs (actually one would not take back our WKORV OFD) including WSJ-VGV (for ~$14K per week), with new money, and convert to Westin Flex. I was curious what their current offer was (research), and was informed that they now would take back any except WSJ-VGV.

I never said it was a good deal or idea, just looking at my options (using, renting, selling, conversion...). I found it interesting that WSJ-VGV was now off the table, but our WKORV OFD (that is also not in Flex) could be converted to Westin Flex. They were willing to take back our WKORV-OFD for $65K at one time, but would need to bring in $20K (iirc).

I believe they are not taking WSJ deedbacks either based on Brian’s thread.

 

[dioxide45]

In 2 separate Owners Updates they offered to take back any of our VSE VOIs (actually one would not take back our WKORV OFD) including WSJ-VGV (for ~$14K per week), with new money, and convert to Westin Flex. I was curious what their current offer was (research), and was informed that they now would take back any except WSJ-VGV.

I never said it was a good deal or idea, just looking at my options (using, renting, selling, conversion...). I found it interesting that WSJ-VGV was now off the table, but our WKORV OFD (that is also not in Flex) could be converted to Westin Flex. They were willing to take back our WKORV-OFD for $65K at one time, but would need to bring in $20K (iirc).

I believe they are not taking WSJ deedbacks either based on Brian’s thread.

From what I understand, they aren't really doing any trade ins anymore. Based on our last presentation at SVV, they will only retro resale weeks. For Sheraton Flex, $10K new money to retro the first week and then $5K for every week thereafter. Is it that they won't retro WSJ weeks or that they won't take them as a full trade in?

 

[DavidnRobin]

From what I understand, they aren't really doing any trade ins anymore. Based on our last presentation at SVV, they will only retro resale weeks. For Sheraton Flex, $10K new money to retro the first week and then $5K for every week thereafter. Is it that they won't retro WSJ weeks or that they won't take them as a full trade in?

Won’t take them as a trade in.
It was offered before (75% of purchase price) toward Westin Flex.


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[johnnymavrik]

Stupid (me) question. We bought 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago while at the Westin in Princeville (don't ask, we thought we were getting a suite for a week but they ended up not building any suites at Nanea). So now we are stuck with 5 nights only at Nanea 12 months out or a week at most 8 months out.

At the owners update this past week, they tried to upsell us into more days and we passed and took the 30k in points and ran. When we called the Interval number (about what to do with our remaining options this year - another issue is we didn't know about the July 1 deadline to bank the options) they said they can move us into the Flex program and sell us an additional 28,600 options + 100k bonvoy points for about $12k. This would give us 8 nights in a 1br that we can reserve 12 months out at Nanea and other properties.

So what am I missing? I don't get the conversion from Nanea only to the Flex program. Am i missing the huge downside?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Another consideration is a black swan event if severe market downturn or personal health or financial distress: The Calif Desert deeded properties (MVC and SVN) are protected legally if something catastrophic happened and you are forced to walk and give up the timeshare deed. You may take a hit to credit but if this happens this will not be a major concern. Flex being a points trust with property deeds in multiple states may not provide such protection (it hasn't been tested legally) and they could go after your other assets if you live in the U.S.

Some people value sleep at night.

Look at the Buying Thread Stickies under legal plans by state. I am considering only deeds for free / low priced properties in certain states that offer anti-deficiency legal protection against creditors for TS in case I cannot sell or give it away. With that said, I am less concerned by high value properties in non-anti-deficiency protection states such as WKORV/N Hawaii and NYC and desirable high point/low MF generators those will hold some value or will be desirable give-aways.

 

[jabberwocky]

Welcome to TUG @johnnymavrik!

Sorry to hear the experience with Nanea hasn't worked out and don't feel stupid - most of us here bought developer at the beginning and we've all overpaid for something at some point. The key is to now set yourself up to get the most out of what you have. Take your time and learn exactly what the best option for your usage case is. There is usually no need to rush a new purchase.

This is one instance where I think a Flex package would definitely be a better option for you if you are wanting at least one week. How much did you pay for your Nanea? I would not just buy another small package to add onto Nanea - instead I would want them to take back the Nanea package and replace it with a new Flex package (is this what they meant by move you into the Flex program?). What you have now is some very expensive SO's.

IMO Westin Flex is better than Nanea. You'll get 8-12 month booking priority at 8 of the Westin resorts (including Nanea and the other three Hawaii properties). At 8 months the Home Options become StarOptions to trade into anywhere else in the VSN system.

I'd recommend an 81k Flex package as this would get you what you want. I'm not sure about going to a 95.7 package because there are no 1BR Oceanfronts in Flex (actually no Oceanfront). The 95.7 package will only be useful if you want extra days or a 1BR summer week at Westin Riverfront in CO. Also - be sure you are buying Westin Flex. There has been some confusion since there is also a Sheraton Flex - a much inferior product since it excludes the Westin's on resale and can only book into Hawaii at the 8 month mark.

Another possibility would be to just buy a resale week at WKORV OV for much less than the price of the proposed Flex package and then use the existing Nanea options to add a few days onto the trip (this would mean moving resorts unfortunately).

Another thing to consider is that if you are going to make a >$10k purchase and you would like even more vacation time would you benefit by picking up a voluntary resort (that currently has no SO) for cheap with a good MF/SO ratio. Vistana would then let you bring that into the network so you would have SO's to use. But this is advanced Timeshare Ninja stuff.

 

[johnnymavrik]

Thanks jabber. We paid about 26k for the 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago. It came with 125k SPG points and a couple of other bennies.

And yes they'd be swapping out or crediting our Nanea purchase for the Westin (confirmed) Flex purchase, hence the $12k cost for the extra 28,600 options. That was the least amount of options they would quote as we asked about just getting to 81k options.

Just wanted to ensure I wasn't be stupid about adding more options, as staying up to 8 nights vs the 5 now at Nanea in a 1BR seems ideal.

As an aside..are Bonvoy points the same as SPG points now?

 

[jabberwocky]

Thanks jabber. We paid about 26k for the 67,100 options at Nanea 2 years ago. It came with 125k SPG points and a couple of other bennies.

And yes they'd be swapping out or crediting our Nanea purchase for the Westin (confirmed) Flex purchase, hence the $12k cost for the extra 28,600 options. That was the least amount of options they would quote as we asked about just getting to 81k options.

Just wanted to ensure I wasn't be stupid about adding more options, as staying up to 8 nights vs the 5 now at Nanea in a 1BR seems ideal.

As an aside..are Bonvoy points the same as SPG points now?

Yes - Bonvoy replaced the SPG points.

Overall it's not the worst deal I've seen considering your situation. I think there is something about Vistana getting to a minimum purchase of $12k rather than a specific point number. Flex is good if you value flexbility in booking outside of the standard one week interval period (plus the any check-in day of the week is a nice feature).

The purchase would do what you want it to do. You could probably improve it a bit but that depends on how much you value your time and are willing to hunt for a good resale deal. Others will chime in here and have valuable insights as well.

Bottom line I think it is better to pay a bit more to have something you will be happy with and can use rather than something that isn't useful at all.

 

[johnnymavrik]

Again, much appreciated. I hate spending the dollars but we go to Maui every year for the past 10 and 2 yrs ago this made sense to finally give in and purchase long term. Wish it had been for the correct amount of options to begin with (still bummed they sold us a week of a suite at a location that didn't have any - again, mea culpa) but getting to a week + a day and not losing too much I guess makes sense.

We just added the Bonvoy Amex card so I guess getting (?) the 6x points on the purchase will help too.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Again, much appreciated. I hate spending the dollars but we go to Maui every year for the past 10 and 2 yrs ago this made sense to finally give in and purchase long term. Wish it had been for the correct amount of options to begin with (still bummed they sold us a week of a suite at a location that didn't have any - again, mea culpa) but getting to a week + a day and not losing too much I guess makes sense.

We just added the Bonvoy Amex card so I guess getting (?) the 6x points on the purchase will help too.

Hindsight is always 20/20. If you had purchased resale 6 years ago you would be past the breakeven threshold by now. We purchased WKORVN/OF resale and calculate that we will push past the rental breakeven point after our 3rd visit. Faster if we lock-off the unit and stay two weeks, or rent out one side of the unit.

 

[capjak]

I think you have a lot of options.

One would be since you go to Maui every year would be to add a EOY WKORV-North or South, use it for 2 weeks in Maui (EOY) and bank your Nanea options to the next year and then use those the following year (67K with home priority and 67K at 8 months at WKORV-N, South, Nanea). EOY WKORV North Oceanview ($8,000). If you do not care about the view than purchase Sheraton Vistana Villiages (Mandatory only) or Westin Kierland (Mandatory).

 

[DavidnRobin]

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

 

[CPNY]

I think you have a lot of options.

One would be since you go to Maui every year would be to add a EOY WKORV-North or South, use it for 2 weeks in Maui (EOY) and bank your Nanea options to the next year and then use those the following year (67K with home priority and 67K at 8 months at WKORV-N, South, Nanea). EOY WKORV North Oceanview ($8,000). If you do not care about the view than purchase Sheraton Vistana Villiages (Mandatory only) or Westin Kierland (Mandatory).

Depending on when you go to Maui you can still get oceanfront rooms with a star options booking at 8 months. I’ve booked on two separate occasions for family members and was able to use my SVV SO to get oceanfront villas at WKORV-N not sure if that was luck since it was the only two times I ever tried booking Maui and yes it was the off season which is why I say if you’re not tied to a specific time of year (holiday/school break). Again, maybe I just got lucky.