New TUGGER here. Got some questions.

[DavidnRobin]

FredM makes an excellent point...


Putting WSJ and HRA aside - WKORV-S OF are tremedous TSs (if not the best overall) if you have spare funds - and WKORV-N/S is a fantastic resort for many reasons. There are only 24 Deluxe (corner) and 12 Premium (center) OF villas - as an owner and calling 12 months in advance you will be on the top 2 floors (8 Dlx and 4 Prem villas) and these are hard to beat (if view is important to you - as it is to us). Could we have saved by waiting 4 years to buy resale and save more - yes - but then again that is 4 less stays in these great villas. And ever year we managed to rent the studio side to help offset the MFs.

If you can't plan ahead at 12 months - the landscape drastically changes if view and location is important and then it becomes a gamble.

 

[DanCali]

It is easy to make the simple complicated.
Keep it simple. Buy where you wish to go. Buy the view you will enjoy having, once there.

An old timeshare saying is appropriate here. The experience (for better or worse) will remain long after the price is forgotten.

Buy what you intend to experience. Period.

Thanks Denise, Ken, Fred, David and others - this is all very helpful.

"Buy where you wish to go" makes sense to me - I'm sold on that. I have a 3 year old so WKORV and SVV should keep us busy over the next decade...

"Buy the view you will enjoy having, once there" seems like a good idea for fixed weeks. If I was buying week 51 or 52 I'd definitely do that. However, given the floating week system, I just don't see how anyone can "guarantee" or make representations that you get any view unless you call at 9am 365 days in advance. You may be the owner of an OV Thanksgiving week, and you may want to actually go there that week, but if you call 11.5 months in advance you may have 200 people with various deeded OV weeks (any of weeks 1-50) who reserved all their OVs unit for Thanksgiving already. A "guaranteed" OV booked 11.5 months in advance can easily turn into an IV because that is the only thing left.

Does anyone know why WPORV developer floating weeks don't sell with various views? Is it because they can't actually make any guarantees besides that you are more likely to get what you want the earlier you call?

 

[DeniseM]

I just don't see how anyone can "guarantee" or make representations that you get any view unless you call at 9am 365 days in advance.

There is no 100% guarantee, but I have never heard of someone not being able to reserve their deeded view, at their home resort at 12 mos. out.

A "guaranteed" OV booked 11.5 months in advance can easily turn into an IV because that is the only thing left.

Actually, you can only reserve what you OWN at 8-12 mos. out, so you cannot reserve IV at 11.5 mos. out, if you own ocean view. If your view is not available, you have to wait until 8 mos. and try for a Staroptions exchange. ANY time you reserve a unit other than exactly what you own, it's a Staroptions exchange.

Does anyone know why WPORV developer floating weeks don't sell with various views? Is it because they can't actually make any guarantees besides that you are more likely to get what you want the earlier you call?

I don't think that's it. When Starwood built WKORV and WKORV-N they were ridiculous about the way they determined some of the views. For instance, there are some ocean front units at WKORV-N which have minimal ocean views, and Starwood caught a lot of flack for it. I stayed in an "OV" room at WKORV once, that had NO view at all - there was a huge AC unit in front of the window - but it was considered OV! Since the whole resort is up on a cliff at WPORV, and no units are ocean front, I think Starwood decided to avoid the whole view category problem, by not having any deeded views.

 

[RoshiGuy]

There is no 100% guarantee, but I have never heard of someone not being able to reserve their deeded view, at their home resort at 12 mos. out.

Actually, you can only reserve what you OWN at 8-12 mos. out, so you cannot reserve IV at 11.5 mos. out, if you own ocean view. If your view is not available, you have to wait until 8 mos. and try for a Staroptions exchange. ANY time you reserve a unit other than exactly what you own, it's a Staroptions exchange.

I find it really hard to believe that there will be no "capacity" issues, even at 12 months out. That would suggest there are no "prime" weeks, which is obviously not the case. There are only a limited number of OV units available for Thankgiving week (we can replace this with any other prime week) and surely there are people who call at Noon, instead of 9AM are are shut out.

Your second point concerns me quite a bit ... particularly because I have school-age kids and am locked into specific travel weeks. Based on what you say, if I miss out on my (hypothetical) OV unit, I cannot settle for a IV unit and will have to wait till 8 months out when no IV units may be available. Thanks for pointing this out ... will help if/when I decide to purchase another TS.

 

[Stefa]

DannyM, It sounds like you are happy with your decision to purchase IV, so my response is for anyone who may be reading this thread who is still deciding what to buy.

As others have pointed out, the MFs are the same regardless of view, so the IV are much less likely to hold their value. Also, if you decide not to use your week for whatever reason, you will likely get more rent for an OV. Therefore, I would only buy OV and only if I really wanted this resort. If I couldn't plan far enough in advance, I'd skip buying the timeshare and just rent a timeshare or private condo.

 

[Troopers]

I find it really hard to believe that there will be no "capacity" issues, even at 12 months out. That would suggest there are no "prime" weeks, which is obviously not the case. There are only a limited number of OV units available for Thankgiving week (we can replace this with any other prime week) and surely there are people who call at Noon, instead of 9AM are are shut out.

That's right. Like DeniseM said, not 100% guarantee.

Your second point concerns me quite a bit ... particularly because I have school-age kids and am locked into specific travel weeks. Based on what you say, if I miss out on my (hypothetical) OV unit, I cannot settle for a IV unit and will have to wait till 8 months out when no IV units may be available. Thanks for pointing this out ... will help if/when I decide to purchase another TS.

Right again. Remember, IV owners have 8-12 months out to reserve their IV unit.

 

[DeniseM]

I find it really hard to believe that there will be no "capacity" issues, even at 12 months out. That would suggest there are no "prime" weeks, which is obviously not the case. There are only a limited number of OV units available for Thankgiving week (we can replace this with any other prime week) and surely there are people who call at Noon, instead of 9AM are are shut out.

I have never heard of someone who couldn't get a Resv. at 12 mos. out at their home resort, and believe me - we have talked it to death! Most TS owners are not TUG members, and don't plan 12 mos. out, so savvy Tuggers have an advantage, because we understand the ropes!

Your second point concerns me quite a bit ... particularly because I have school-age kids and am locked into specific travel weeks. Based on what you say, if I miss out on my (hypothetical) OV unit, I cannot settle for a IV unit and will have to wait till 8 months out when no IV units may be available. Thanks for pointing this out ... will help if/when I decide to purchase another TS.

Yep! But honestly, if you can't plan 12 mos. out, TSing may not be a good fit for you.

 

[DanCali]

Most TS owners are not TUG members, and don't plan 12 mos. out, so savvy Tuggers have an advantage, because we understand the ropes!

This goes back to my original point that for a non-holiday week you may have a reasonable chance to get an OV upgrade with an IV because I think many people who have deeded OVs don't even plan 8 months in advance. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I'll end up with an actual IV and can certainly live with that, but I'd still rather avoid a situation where I pay for an OV room and get a big AC in front of my window! (sounds like a rare occurrence though)

By the way, Denise - when you said earlier that the February week you wanted to reserve 8 months out was full, was that Presidents week? Would you have had availability if you were willing to compromise on unit size (1 vs. 2 bedrooms)?

 

[RoshiGuy]

I have never heard of someone who couldn't get a Resv. at 12 mos. out at their home resort, and believe me - we have talked it to death! Most TS owners are not TUG members, and don't plan 12 mos. out, so savvy Tuggers have an advantage, because we understand the ropes!

If that is the case, why all the focus on calling exactly at 9AM 12 months out. Why can't I wait till Noon, or say later in the day when it's still 12 months out? I think the basic laws of supply and demand apply to TS, like anything else. And even less-savvy non-Tuggers will realize (after a couple of years of disappointment) that they need to call early for prime weeks. In my case I know that I'll always travel in week 52 ... the problem with resorts further subdividing inventory into OF/OV/IV is that it reduces my chances of getting any unit, even if I call 12 months out.

 

[DanCali]

DannyM, It sounds like you are happy with your decision to purchase IV, so my response is for anyone who may be reading this thread who is still deciding what to buy.

As others have pointed out, the MFs are the same regardless of view, so the IV are much less likely to hold their value. Also, if you decide not to use your week for whatever reason, you will likely get more rent for an OV. Therefore, I would only buy OV and only if I really wanted this resort. If I couldn't plan far enough in advance, I'd skip buying the timeshare and just rent a timeshare or private condo.

I think I am happy with the decision for now, but I can be fickle

"holding value" is a tricky term. Suppose today an IV costs $15K and an OV costs $20K (33% more). Suppose a year later we have a big depression and OV price is now $6K (70% drop) while IV price is $3K (80% drop). So IV were indeed less likely to hold their value. Note that because of the higher percentage decline, the premium between IV and OV is now 100% versus the original 33%... Yet in Dollar terms, which is what matters, the OV investor lost $14K and the IV investor lost "only" $12K despite the greater % decline. If both properties depreciate, even if the cheaper one depreciates faster it may still be the better choice because you lose less dollars.

Obviously this is not all about dollars and many people are willing to pay a certain amount for a guaranteed nicer view when they go to this resort rather than hope for an upgrade based on availability. I just think that if an IV owner gets higher upgrade priority than SVN and II exchanges and late OV and OF bookers, that's probably good enough for me!

 

[DanCali]

If that is the case, why all the focus on calling exactly at 9AM 12 months out. Why can't I wait till Noon, or say later in the day when it's still 12 months out? I think the basic laws of supply and demand apply to TS, like anything else. And even less-savvy non-Tuggers will realize (after a couple of years of disappointment) that they need to call early for prime weeks. In my case I know that I'll always travel in week 52 ... the problem with resorts further subdividing inventory into OF/OV/IV is that it reduces my chances of getting any unit, even if I call 12 months out.

Actually, as far as I know weeks 51 and 52 at this resort were sold as fixed weeks. I think Starwood confirms your reservation automatically and you don't even need to call. You can buy a OF/OV/IV unit on resale and will likely stay in your actual deeded unit...

 

[Troopers]

If that is the case, why all the focus on calling exactly at 9AM 12 months out. Why can't I wait till Noon, or say later in the day when it's still 12 months out? I think the basic laws of supply and demand apply to TS, like anything else. And even less-savvy non-Tuggers will realize (after a couple of years of disappointment) that they need to call early for prime weeks.

Because requests are filled based on who's first in line. Not all OV are equal. I want to be on the highest floor in the south building.

In my case I know that I'll always travel in week 52 ... the problem with resorts further subdividing inventory into OF/OV/IV is that it reduces my chances of getting any unit, even if I call 12 months out.

I disagree....you'll always be competing against the other 51 owners (ignoring fixed weeks).

 

[Henry M.]

If there's a choice, I'd buy IV at WKORV-N rather than at WKORV. IV at the North property is much better than at the south property. I haven't been keeping up with resale prices so I don't know if there;s a price difference between similar units at either property.

 

[LisaRex]

Yes, weeks 51/52 are sold as fixed event weeks.

As far as a resort being sold out, I do recall one person who called to reserve a week within the Home Resort priority period being told that a particular view during a particular summer week was not available. (DavidnRobin, was that you and your sweet OF Dlx villa?)

That is the only case that I can recall where a WKORV owner reported that he/she was shut out of a week.

On the other hand, a few Marriott owners have reported being unable to reserve a summer week at MOC. Note that Marriott made the same mistake (at least *I* think it was a mistake) as Starwood in coding all float weeks as platinum. So certainly there will be cases where a view is completely booked. However, Marriott's problem is exacerbated because they allow up to 50% of the inventory to be booked by multi-week owners 13 months in advance. Starwood doesn't do that.

What also puzzles me is why WKORV weeks routinely make it (or used to anyway) all the way to II, given that the resort is supposedly sold out. Do people really buy a TS and not use it?

 

[Stefa]

Because requests are filled based on who's first in line. Not all OV are equal. I want to be on the highest floor in the south building.

Exactly. All IV aren't equal either. Which is why I would not suggest anyone pay the $$ to buy into this resort plus the high MFs with the intention of trading in at 8 months. I'm not saying it wouldn't work; I'm saying I wouldn't do it. If I cared about the view, I'd pay for OV. If I didn't care, I'd buy Kierland and trade in.

 

[DeniseM]

If that is the case, why all the focus on calling exactly at 9AM 12 months out. Why can't I wait till Noon, or say later in the day when it's still 12 months out?

For the view! There are awesome ocean view units, and there are ocean view units where you can't even see the ocean! Your timestamp determines the quality of your view, within your deeded view category.

In my case I know that I'll always travel in week 52 ... the problem with resorts further subdividing inventory into OF/OV/IV is that it reduces my chances of getting any unit, even if I call 12 months out.

Then is won't work for you, unless you spend the big bux to buy a fixed week 52 - floating owners cannot reserve week 51 or 52 at the Maui resorts.

 

[James1975NY]

If that is the case, why all the focus on calling exactly at 9AM 12 months out. Why can't I wait till Noon, or say later in the day when it's still 12 months out? I think the basic laws of supply and demand apply to TS, like anything else. And even less-savvy non-Tuggers will realize (after a couple of years of disappointment) that they need to call early for prime weeks. In my case I know that I'll always travel in week 52 ... the problem with resorts further subdividing inventory into OF/OV/IV is that it reduces my chances of getting any unit, even if I call 12 months out.

Roshi, the availability situation is all relative....look at it like this:

Assume the following:
1.) Resort in question has 100 units
2.) Resort is sold out (51 weeks of each unit sold) = 5100 owners
3.) All owners have same booking window (12 months prior)
4.) No one owner has multiple weeks. (5100 "unique" owners)

With that, you have 5100 owners that have access to 5100 unit weeks. Agreed?

Now assume the following:
1.) Resort in question has 100 units
- 60 OV, 30 IV and 10 OF
- 3060 OV Owners, 1530 IV Owners, 510 OF Owners (5100 Total)
2.) Resort is sold out
3.) Owners can only book their designated view 12-8 months prior
4.) No multiple week owners.

With that....
a.) 3060 OV Owners have access to 3060 OV unit weeks.
b.) 1530 IV Owners have access to 1530 IV unit weeks.
c.) 510 OF Owners have access to 510 OF unit weeks.

It is all relative....

 

[DeniseM]

What also puzzles me is why WKORV weeks routinely make it (or used to anyway) all the way to II, given that the resort is supposedly sold out. Do people really buy a TS and not use it?

Believe it or not, some people deposit their WKORV week with II - scary, huh?

 

[RoshiGuy]

It is all relative....

Good point about the higher available units being exactly offset by a much greater pool of eligible owners. Troopers also pointed this out.

I've been a TS owner for a very short time (about a year - found TUG before I bought my resale SDO unit). What I've realized is that TS are best for people who have lots of flexibility or are happy to go back to the same place year after year. In our case neither of these apply and I'm glad I found this out without spending big bucks on one or two developer purchases!

 

[James1975NY]

I think I am happy with the decision for now, but I can be fickle

"holding value" is a tricky term. Suppose today an IV costs $15K and an OV costs $20K (33% more). Suppose a year later we have a big depression and OV price is now $6K (70% drop) while IV price is $3K (80% drop). So IV were indeed less likely to hold their value. Note that because of the higher percentage decline, the premium between IV and OV is now 100% versus the original 33%... Yet in Dollar terms, which is what matters, the OV investor lost $14K and the IV investor lost "only" $12K despite the greater % decline. If both properties depreciate, even if the cheaper one depreciates faster it may still be the better choice because you lose less dollars.

Obviously this is not all about dollars and many people are willing to pay a certain amount for a guaranteed nicer view when they go to this resort rather than hope for an upgrade based on availability. I just think that if an IV owner gets higher upgrade priority than SVN and II exchanges and late OV and OF bookers, that's probably good enough for me!

Maybe other tuggers can chime in on this one but you may also want to consider the rental of the unit.

If for some reason your commitments for the year did not allow you to go to the resort, I would think that the OV unit would rent easier for you and likely for a higher dollar amount?

Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Henry M.]

A couple of years back someone deposited their 1 BR WKORV unit because they couldn't use it. The next year they traded back into WKORV and got a 2BR for the 1BR they had deposited. Not a bad deal!

I don't know if that can still happen after all the II changes, though.

Also, sometimes you get to the end of your use year and you just can't get away as you had expected. Rather than waste the week because you can't find a renter in time, you can deposit it and at least retain some value for a couple of years. Your other option would be to exchange into Starpoints (if you bought from the developer) that, depending on your travel habits, might net you even less value than an II deposit, but still better than a total loss.

 

[DanCali]

Maybe other tuggers can chime in on this one but you may also want to consider the rental of the unit.

If for some reason your commitments for the year did not allow you to go to the resort, I would think that the OV unit would rent easier for you and likely for a higher dollar amount?

Anyone have any experience with this?

I've taken a look at rental prices and it looks like at least asking prices are higher for OV vs. IV. I believe LisaRex said her OF rentals cover MFs. On the other hand the OF and OV units cost more up front so that rental premium doesn't come for free. Either way, hopefully I am not buying here just to end up renting it away - it's not something I'd want to do more than 2-3 times in the next 10 years.

 

[DeniseM]

I've taken a look at rental prices and it looks like at least asking prices are higher for OV vs. IV. I believe LisaRex said her OF rentals cover MFs. On the other hand the OF and OV units cost more up front so that rental premium doesn't come for free.

I have rented my 2 Bdm. WKORV OV TS for 2008, 2009, and 2010 for $3,500, so you can get more than just enough to cover the MF, for an OF Rental. Will that continue in this economy? - who knows? - but I have had my 2010 week rented since May - in fact I had 2 serious renters who both wanted it within 2 days. But with IV, you may only be able to cover your MF.

Have you seriously considered buying a cheap exchanger and trading in? If you are flexible about when you travel, it's the best way to go - for almost no upfront cost.

 

[MON2REY]

Your other option would be to exchange into Starpoints (if you bought from the developer) that, depending on your travel habits, might net you even less value than an II deposit, but still better than a total loss.

As I recall, you can only convert to starpoints up until March 31 of the year in question.

 

[DanCali]

I have rented my 2 Bdm. WKORV OV TS for 2008, 2009, and 2010 for $3,500, so you can get more than just enough to cover the MF, for an OF Rental. Will that continue in this economy? - who knows? - but I have had my 2010 week rented since May - in fact I had 2 serious renters who both wanted it within 2 days. But with IV, you may only be able to cover your MF.

Have you seriously considered buying a cheap exchanger and trading in? If you are flexible about when you travel, it's the best way to go - for almost no upfront cost.

I assume that to get that price you booked a high demand holiday week in advance knowing you were going to rent? Can you expect to get the same price if you book a random August week for your own personal use and rent it out with 1-2 months notice because you can't go? Is there a particular site you'd recommend for rentals?


My travel flexibility will decline as time goes forward due to kids. Also, I feel much better about buying at mandatory SVN resorts.