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New Marriott purchase - Should I cancel??

bazzap

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Just remember Low season = Rain, which in Thailand may be very heavy and prolonged.
You can be lucky, but it is high risk.
 

bazzap

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We own one Developer week and one Resale week at PBC.
I can't remember the exact cost of the Resale week, but it was less than $10k.
AP had by then in theory gone Points only, although they did find a Developer week option for us if we wanted it but at over $30k that was never going to happen!
As Malcolm says, $8-9k would seem a fair Resale week price for a High Season Platinum week.
 

hybridE4t

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If I were to buy resale in the future can I use these points alongside my developer points?

If I buy resale weeks now and convert them into the new points system I assume I'd lose some value - isn't this why many owners on the old system are selling? This loss of value would be in addition to MVCI perks I would miss out on. However maybe I'm over-valuing the benefits you get by buying direct. If buying resale I'd rather buy points directly to keep things simple.

On a slightly separate note, has anyone valued Asia versus European versus US points? So far on this thread it seems that the Asia points may be better value/more flexible than the US equivalent.
 

MALC9990

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High season:

1. PBC rental (2 bedroom villa) via SMTN seems to be USD 2500 (unsure if this inc tax) + transaction fee
2. Booking on marriott.com (inc tax) is $2841 for an adv booking or $4376 otherwise
3. Using my AP would be most of my 33k annual allowance. Around 30k I think.

I will check paperwork once home for exact numbers but the cost of point usage is approximately:
MF: 30,000 x 0.034 = $1020
+
1 years use of 42 ownership outlay: 30,000 x $1.3 / 42 = $929
=
$1949

I guess the true cost is a little more as I would be earning about 3% interest on the money if it was sitting in my bank account. On the flip side I also haven't factored in the free MRPs and Premier status benefits.

This doesn't seem too bad... what am I missing?

Last-minute low season:
1. PBC rental via SMTN seems to be USD 348 (inc transaction fee but unsure if this inc tax)
2. Via marriott.com last minutes deals would be $1578
3. Last minute AP bookings (less than 59 days) cost 10,000 points regardless of low/high season so a third of the above calculation comes to $650

Rental looks better here. The trouble is our eldest son starts school next year so I'm not sure to what extent we'll be able to take advantage of low season.

There are a few things I would add to your thoughts on rental rather than purchase.

Week owners also offer their weeks for rental but not through Marriott.Com. Marriott.com get rental weeks from owners in exchange for Marriott reward points. A typical rental for a plat season week would be around $1800 which coverMFs nicely and is well under what you would pay Marriott.com. Obviously when renting from an owner you are making a transaction with an individual somewhere in the world and there are rsk issues that you would need to assess. These apply on both sides - hence the lower rental rate.

One of the advantages of points over a week ownership is flexibility. I own weeks in plat season, now if I want to use those weeks for Gold season, I must ether deposit with II and then exchange - but then I suffer a notional loss in that I give up a high season week for a low season week. This was why I bought my AP points back in 2009. A week in low season (Gold) costs 20000 AP points at PBC and MKB so I can trade in one of my PBC Plat season weeks for 32700 AP points and then use those and my annual 30000 AP points to reserve 3 weeks in Gold season whilst still retaining 2 Plat season weeks.

The late booking option mentioned by the OP is another AP points benefit. This is called an express booking and a week would only cost 10000 AP points. The issue here is availability. The availablity will be very low if not non-existent in the high season from December through to April especially at PBC. MKB is more of a possibility since there are no week owners and so the availability is all for AP points owners.

Someone already made the point that reserving a TS week, irrespective of how the reservation is being made, points or weeks, is not like booking a hotel. There needs to be much more forward planning and some options like Exress Bookings are last minute options and are not certain to be available.

The OP has also mentioned resale for points. Now the AP points system is a much more limited scheme than the DC - it was in effect MVCI's trial run for the subsequent introduction of the DC points system in the USA and then in Europe.

A resale week added to a portfolio of AP points does make sense in that you can use both ways to manage a reservation using both - book two weeks in Plat season one with your points and on with your resale plat week.

You also mention your elder child will soon start school. That introduces the issue of school holidays. Your holiday window will then reduce significantly. This is where the flexibility of using points can be a benefit. You can look at booking a shorter break using points for a scholol holiday period whereas a week owner is stuck with a week at a time.
 

MALC9990

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If I were to buy resale in the future can I use these points alongside my developer points?

If I buy resale weeks now and convert them into the new points system I assume I'd lose some value - isn't this why many owners on the old system are selling? This loss of value would be in addition to MVCI perks I would miss out on. However maybe I'm over-valuing the benefits you get by buying direct. If buying resale I'd rather buy points directly to keep things simple.

On a slightly separate note, has anyone valued Asia versus European versus US points? So far on this thread it seems that the Asia points may be better value/more flexible than the US equivalent.

You should investigate the issue of buying resale weeks and then enrolling in the AP overlay system. The process is different to the DC points system where resale weeks bought now are NOT eligible for enrolement. In the AP system, a weeks owner wanting to enrole in the AP points system must first be an owner of AP points and then buy a number of additional points to be allowed to enrole a week in the overlay system. My last experience was that a weeks owner needed to by an additional 17000 AP points to get the right to enrole a week or several weeks in the AP points overlay system. Further - I do not know if resale weeks can be enroled since my weeks enroled were bought from MVCI direct.

You could also look into buying AP points on the resale market - this is a very small market todate since most resale sources are eith US based - e.g. REDWEEK.COM or European based brokers e.g. TRAVELANDLEISURE.CO.UK

I guess I might be one of the few AP point owners here on this forum and certainly one of a very few who own weeks in Europe and Phuket and also have AP Points and use DC points from my enrolled European weeks, so yes I have tried to compare the relative value of the different systems.

The two points systems are different but very similar. The big difference is that there are many more resorts available in the DC Points system while the AP system is restricted to a few resorts but there are possibilities for the two systems becoming more linked in the future. AP points owners can already use AP points to reserve time at European MVCI resorts but at a greater cost of points. As a DC points enrolled owner, I cannot use DC points to access AP Points Club resorts availability but that may be something that comes on the future. Making the systems interchangeable in these ways would make sense for MVCI but there would probably be a cost for owners to make use of these interchange facilities - there has to be someting in it for MVCI.

On balance, I find my DC points more easily used than my AP points but that is probably because I live in the UK and so access to DC points availability is easier for me than using my AP points where the resorts are the other sode of the world. I just have to plan and work harder to ensure I use my AP points and not let them expire.
 

larryanderson

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Marriott resale market

I purchased my first unit in the resale market at a great price. Marriott has a first right of refusal and they purchased the first two I tried to buy. On the third try they did not exercise their right and I closed a two bedroom lock/off for under $4000.00. The 2nd one cost $5,500.00 after 3 tries where marriott purchased ahead of me. This was also a two bedroom lock/off. The third was a two bedroom lock off platinum plus July 4th week in Lake Tahoe for $11,500.00.

I love the system with Marriott.

All of the above where platinum or better. I've tried again but it seems Marriott is buying everything back which is also a sign that the economy in time share is heating up again.
 
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dioxide45

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I have no idea how the Asia Pacific points system works, nor do almost any of the U.S. based posters on TUG. Canceling may be a good idea but I have no idea because I don't know the facts. I am continually amazed by the clear and forceful advice we sometimes see here from those who do not know the facts. I am not trying to be quarrelsome, just objective.

I think we have enough facts. The owner only has a few days to cancel and doesn't know enough about the system and are coming to TUG to ask questions about it. The fact is that you can't learn everything you know to make an educated purchase like this in three days.

Rescind is by far the best advice anyone can give/get in this situation. The same deal will be there in a few weeks if they decide they still want to buy from the developer.
 

Ron98GT

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I think we have enough facts. The owner only has a few days to cancel and doesn't know enough about the system and are coming to TUG to ask questions about it. The fact is that you can't learn everything you know to make an educated purchase like this in three days.

Rescind is by far the best advice anyone can give/get in this situation. The same deal will be there in a few weeks (If the OP fly's back to Thailand from Hong Kong, NOTE: this is my comment - Ron98GT) if they decide they still want to buy from the developer.
1. The OP already stated that they want to be part of the Marriott AP point system.

2. The OP already stated that they are not going to rescind.

3. But most importantly, because of the 5 day rescission and the current day and time of day in Thailand, it's now too late to rescind.
 
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m61376

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Which would make sense for you & me because we want to own weeks, no DC or AP points. But there are many Marriott owners here on TUG that wanted DC points for one reason or another. If you want points, your going to have to pay for them. I don't think that you can purchase AP or DC points in the resale market, and if you can what the cost would be and the availability. So it goes back again, if you want to be in the points system, your going to pay (thru the nose) for them.

Being points and that I have very limited knowledge of the DC points system, let alone the AP system, I see no way that I could offer any advise either way, but it is interesting discussing the AP/DC system and learning more about it. It will also be interesting to learn which way the OP decides to go, although it sounds like they are leaning towards keeping their points contract and not canceling.


I have to agree 100% with BocaBoy:
What you say is true- and I wasn't meaning to imply in any way that a resale week was the only way to go. However, by virtue of the fact that the OP was here asking questions and undecided (which is great- that's what TUG is for) I think the advice to rescind and take the time to make sure you're making the best decision is appropriate, and not overstepping. MVCI will always be happy to make another deal, but they won't give you your money back later on.
 

Ron98GT

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What you say is true- and I wasn't meaning to imply in any way that a resale week was the only way to go. However, by virtue of the fact that the OP was here asking questions and undecided (which is great- that's what TUG is for) I think the advice to rescind and take the time to make sure you're making the best decision is appropriate, and not overstepping. MVCI will always be happy to make another deal, but they won't give you your money back later on.
If the OP wants to fly to Phuket from Honk Kong to pursue that or another deal. So yes the OP could get the same deal at a later date, but at the cost of thousands of dollars (airfare, lodging, meals, etc) :eek:
 

Quadmaniac

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If the OP wants to fly to Phuket from Honk Kong to pursue that or another deal. So yes the OP could get the same deal at a later date, but at the cost of thousands of dollars (airfare, lodging, meals, etc) :eek:

I am positive if he made a phone call they would gladly sell it to him over the phone.

One thing that was not mentioned is that I very often see all of these resorts available quite readily using my resale weeks to trade on Interval. They seem to be quite plentiful and based on what I have seen, it would be cheaper to buy a cheap US resale week to trade into Thailand as it seems to be an easy trade. In the past 4 years I have been able to trade into hard to get places like Hawaii for Christmas, springbreak and summer holidays, so an easy to trade into location like Thailand should be much easier. As with everything, it does take some patience but I would rather spend $1 - 4k than $30K plus to get less. Just my thoughts on it.

The other aspect to keep in mind, while points can give you more flexibility it is still CONTINGENT on availability. Just like the DC system, you can have all the points in the world, but if there is no availability, you will not be able to go at the time you are seeking at Christmas and springbreak as every other family with school aged children want as well. There will be a lot of competition for these key times and you may not always get what you want from there either. Spending more does not guarantee you anything more than a resale week, it all boils down to availability.
 
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m61376

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As posted above, unless things are very different overseas, there is no need to be on site to make a purchase. A quick phone call and the rep will be more than happy to take your money and make a sale.
 

hybridE4t

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Hi everyone. Thanks so much for the rapid and thorough community support and particularly MALC9990 for the AP insight. You'll be pleased to know I decided to cancel (on day 5 of 5!) and am waiting for the confirmation this week :) I totally agree that there's no incentive to rush into a purchase.

I am still inclined to buy some developer points once I've done some more research but may end up buying a smaller number then topping up with resale points. I'm less comfortable with the idea of weeks but it's good to know then could be an economical option in the future.

One thing I'd like to look into more are the pros and cons of buying to the Asia model versus the rest of the world. In addition to HK I also have an address in the UK and don't like they heavy dependency that the vacation club asia has on II. Having said that the AP system seems a little more flexible and possibly a little cheaper so I'll try and extract some of the differences already highlighted in this thread and start a new one.

For completeness I'll update again once I hear back from the vacation club. Thanks again!
 

MALC9990

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Hi everyone. Thanks so much for the rapid and thorough community support and particularly MALC9990 for the AP insight. You'll be pleased to know I decided to cancel (on day 5 of 5!) and am waiting for the confirmation this week :) I totally agree that there's no incentive to rush into a purchase.

I am still inclined to buy some developer points once I've done some more research but may end up buying a smaller number then topping up with resale points. I'm less comfortable with the idea of weeks but it's good to know then could be an economical option in the future.

One thing I'd like to look into more are the pros and cons of buying to the Asia model versus the rest of the world. In addition to HK I also have an address in the UK and don't like they heavy dependency that the vacation club asia has on II. Having said that the AP system seems a little more flexible and possibly a little cheaper so I'll try and extract some of the differences already highlighted in this thread and start a new one.

For completeness I'll update again once I hear back from the vacation club. Thanks again!

First I want to say that you have probably made a sound decision to cancel and investigate more. As we all have said, there will be another deal along later that you can buy into if you decide that is what you want to do. Stay around here and use the informtion to help make your decision.

Now the good news. The advisory board of directors of Phuket Beach Club met for their annual meeting with MVCI just last week. Marriott were able to announce that they continue to work on a process that will allow AP and DC points owners to interchange points. We also hope that this will allow Phuket Beach Club Weeks owners to enrol their weeks in the DC points system. This will benefit both groups of members by expanding their opportunities for vacations and also help MVCI fill vacant units in Phuket.

With an address in the UK, you are better able to look at the resale weeks market through UK based resale brokers.

You should also look at this WEB site http://www.vacationpointexchange.com

The site was set up by a TUG member and can be used to exchange DC and AP points between owners thus enabling one member with excess points to rent them to another member who needs points for a reservation. Most people using the site are TUG members. This site can also be used to initiate a resale process and whilst not used for that process so far it could easily be used for this.

As to the relative merits of the two points systems, for me the AP points system is more attractive of the two - kind of the lesser of two evils it you will. Why? Well in the case of the DC, you buy into the property trust and do so in perpituity. This has ramifications for the future. IN the case of the AP points, you become the member of a Right to Use vacation club. All the units are owned by the Club not the members. There is a defined end date after which your membership ends.

As for Interval International - this is IMHO an excellent exchange system and I've used it extensively over the years. MVCI is a significant partner with II and so I would not worry to much over this point.
 
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nakyak

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Rescind now!

You can find a better offer and Asia / Pacific points owners do not receive the same level of service or benefits as a traditional owner
 

hybridE4t

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AP points owners can already use AP points to reserve time at European MVCI resorts but at a greater cost of points. As a DC points enrolled owner, I cannot use DC points to access AP Points Club resorts availability but that may be something that comes on the future.

My understanding is that AP points can only be used within the AP resorts. Otherwise you have to go via II. Is that what you meant re reserving at the European resorts? I'm surprised the reverse is not true. Are the AP resorts therefore not on II?
 

hybridE4t

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As to the relative merits of the two points systems, for me the AP points system is more attractive of the two - kind of the lesser of two evils it you will. Why? Well in the case of the DC, you buy into the property trust and do so in perpituity. This has ramifications for the future. IN the case of the AP points, you become the member of a Right to Use vacation club. All the units are owned by the Club not the members. There is a defined end date after which your membership ends.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

1. Re perpetuity, do you mean DC points have no expiry date? Surely that is better value? AP points currently only have 42 years to expiry.
2. Re buying into the property trust, as a (potential) point owner surely it wouldn't matter to me whether the physical properties themselves are effectively owned by individuals on the legacy system or the Club? In both systems aren't pure point owners effectively in a right to use relationship?

Clearly I still need to do more reading... :)
 

bazzap

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I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
Time will tell and we shall see.
 

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My understanding is that AP points can only be used within the AP resorts. Otherwise you have to go via II. Is that what you meant re reserving at the European resorts? I'm surprised the reverse is not true. Are the AP resorts therefore not on II?

The European Resorts have been included in the AP Program as part of the Club Connections - so they are being treated like Hotels in that respect. So you use AP point to book a unit at so many points per night.
 

MALC9990

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Would you mind elaborating on this?

1. Re perpetuity, do you mean DC points have no expiry date? Surely that is better value? AP points currently only have 42 years to expiry.
2. Re buying into the property trust, as a (potential) point owner surely it wouldn't matter to me whether the physical properties themselves are effectively owned by individuals on the legacy system or the Club? In both systems aren't pure point owners effectively in a right to use relationship?

Clearly I still need to do more reading... :)

Yes, AP points do expire, but the DC point system points do not expire. In the AP system there is only one type of point - basically in the AP Club you buy points which give you the Right to use the resort properties owned by the Club for the specified number of years - as long as you pay your annual maintenance fees.

In the DC points system there are in effect two types of DC points – Trust points (backed up by beneficial interests in the properties owned by the Trust, and exchange points which are backed by the weeks that owners have exchanged for DC points that year.

Outside the USA, all Marriott Vacation Club resorts are Right to Use properties. When buying a week at Phuket Beach Club, the buyer was buying the right to use the week for a specified number of years.

The same applies to resorts in Spain and France. This also applies to the resorts in the Caribbean that are outside US jurisdiction (St. Kitts and Aruba) - I am not sure if the resort in St. Thomas (US Virgin isles) is RTU or deeded property owned in perpetuity. In the continental USA and also Hawaii all resorts are deeded property (except Custom House in Boston - the building there is actually leased and so on a certain date in the future it gets given back to the owners or Marriott negotiates a new lease. However, all the ownership rights to use will terminate). So when a buyer in the USA buys DC points - what they buy is called a beneficial Interest in the Trust that actually owns all the deeded weeks that form part of the DC resort inventory. This inventory comprises almost all of the unsold weeks as at 10th Jun 2010 that Marriott had on their books. Not every single unsold week was transferred; Marriott retained a quantity for their future use - some they have subsequently transferred into the Trust since that date and some they just still retain. A Beneficial Interest equates to 250 DC points. So if you buy 2500 DC Trust points what you actually buy is 10 beneficial interests in the DC Trust and so own 10 beneficial interests in all of the weeks conveyed by Marriott into the Trust.

Since the DC Trust ownership is in perpetuity, no weeks at any RTU resort can be conveyed into the trust since RTU resorts have an end date and the trust is In Perpetuity. What happens at an RTU resort on the end date is defined in the original governing documents and differs from resort to resort. For example at Son Antem in Majorca, at the end date the resort is to be sold and the proceeds are distributed to the weeks owners at that time. Now since the date in question is long after I will have passed on to a better or worse place - I'm not concerned but someone will be owners at that time and will get a windfall. I must read my governing documents for Phuket Beach Club to find out what will happen there - whatever it is it will not concern me.

Each of the two points system allows weeks owners at the respective resorts to enrol their weeks into the points system. What this means is that each year the week owner can decide whether to use his/her week as normal by reserving, or they can decide to exchange their week for a defined number of points for use in the points system that year. In this case the week owner is credited with points for the week and the points system has another week added to the inventory for that year only. Which week in the year that is added depends on what season the week owner owned in and what was available at the time in the resorts weeks inventory. The week owner does not need to reserve a week before exchanging for points. Over and above all of this or course, the week owner has the facility to exchange through Interval International's exchange programme.

As for your point 2 – A DC Trust point owner is not in an RTU relationship with the Trust – they actually own a number of beneficial interests in the Trust in perpetuity. This is very different to an RTU relationship.

One significant difference is what happens when you fail to pay your MFs and dues. At my Marriott RTU resorts and in the AP Points Club, what happens is that after two years of being delinquent in my dues and MFs, all my ownership and membership is terminated. I lose my weeks and/or AP points and the inventory that relates to is reclaimed by Marriott and can be sold again. In the case of AP points they return to the pool of unsold points held by the Club Manager. In the case of my weeks at PBC, they can be sold again if Marriott decide to do that or most like they are transferred to the AP Club Inventory. In the Deeded Property situation for weeks owners and owners of beneficial interests in the DC Trust – this cannot happen and then the delinquent owner is sued for the debts that they have.
 

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Thank you so much for the comprehensive response!

So assuming one does not default on their payments, the DC points sound better value as you own them rather than lease them. Not that I'd be hoping to resell them but presumably the resale value of AP points will steadily worsen as we approach the year 2056.

I'm much encouraged to learn that AP points have access to the European resorts via Club Connections. If I were to buy them resale my understanding is that I have ALL rights except the ability to convert to MRP and the ability to refer people. Is that correct?

Potentially I guess I could buy the minimum number of developer points then top up with resale points. If I were to buy 12000 AP (or DC equivalent) points from the developer and 28000 resale would the Club let me convert all 30k points to MRP or would they treat the developer and resale points separately?
 

hybridE4t

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I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
Time will tell and we shall see.

That would be amazing! Early 2015 isn't far off :D
 

bazzap

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That would be amazing! Early 2015 isn't far off :D
True.
To be fair though, we had previously been told that it would be by end 2014 and they are now saying by end April 2015 but there is still a lot of work to do!
And even then, it is not clear exactly how it will work in practice.
Don't get me wrong, I really want it to work simply, cheaply and easily but I do have my reservations.
 

jimf41

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The same applies to resorts in Spain and France. This also applies to the resorts in the Caribbean that are outside US jurisdiction (St. Kitts and Aruba) - I am not sure if the resort in St. Thomas (US Virgin isles) is RTU or deeded property owned in perpetuity.

Frenchmans Cove in St Thomas is a deeded property for the weeks that they sold. Also, it does not have ROFR. The units yet to be built and some of the unsold weeks were placed in or will be placed in the trust.
 

MALC9990

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I hesitate to mention this, as nothing is documented yet and I won't really believe it until I see it in writing and understand exactly what it says.
However, we were advised at a Sales Presentation today that the new single, global points currency "Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points" available early 2015 will allow DC and AP Points Owners, Enrolled Owners, Overlay Owners... who have "converted" (I hate use of that word in this context, it is very misleading) to use their points to book any of the MVW resorts worldwide.
Time will tell and we shall see.

Barry, I think this subject (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Points) deserves its own thread here - what do you think? The implications go beyond those for owners of weeks at Phuket beach Club and Asia Pacific Club points members to the wider community of Destinations Club Points Owners and Enrolled Weeks owners.
 
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