New Housekeeping Credit structure [merged]

[dgalati]

The stipulation that HKs can't be deposited for future years (or even borrowed) is the real killer here.

Like many others, I've had lots of cancellations in 2020 so I'll have a TON of points pushed to 2021, but relatively few HKs to go along with them.

Surely a way for Wyndham to squeeze out their competition on rentals.

 

[Richelle]

With this HK change now more then ever it is cheaper to rent from a VIP than own and be burdened with another fee. Especially if you are booking short 3 day stays. The HK fee will surely be raised over time as maintenance fees have. I compare this HK fee as a money grab as with some RCI resorts that charge a daily $26 resort fee.

In the short term sure. But new VIPs won’t have unlimited. They will have extra, but not unlimited. As VIPs exit, there will be fewer and fewer who have unlimited housekeeping. The new VIPs who rent out might have to add in the HK cost to their rental price.

 

[kaljor]

I did think of a small positive. There have been times when a stayed for a week but really would have preferred 9 or 10 days but wouldn't book that as a way to conserve the HK credits so I didn't run into a crunch toward the end of the year. There was a time last year where I had a week at Bonnet Creek and ended up staying 3 more nights at a Holiday Inn which had some fantastic sale going on at the time with a cheap rate and waived parking and resort fees. As a resale owner I do manage my HK's somewhat carefully, which means sometimes staying in a Studio as opposed to a 1 bedroom, so I won't have to do that anymore, and lastly, over the past couple of years I've started making 2 week reservations once or twice a year so the change will suit my new pattern better.

Now different people have different situations and may not want to do that or be able to do that but I bet most people will adapt just fine after the first full year of the new system.

 

[Roger830]

Like others have mentioned, I'm disappointed that housekeeping credits can't be pushed forward with points.

Also the cost of $159 is way too high for a one bedroom or less. We used to book a hotel room in midtown nyc. Why does it cost $159 to clean one room? Super8 motel rooms rent for less than $100. Are they not cleaned?

Also when 70 is divided into my yearly total points, I have 63 left over that now can't be used. (63/70 = 90%) Why can't I buy 7 more credits each year for $15.90? I shouldn't lose that $143.10

 

[kaljor]

I hear you, I'm 20,000 points short of an additional credit. $159 is a pretty steep fee but I think Richelle's theory about averaging the cost is correct. It doesn't cost $159 to clean a hotel room or a 400 Square Foot Studio, but it has to cost more than that to clean a 3 or 4 bedroom unit.

 

[dgalati]

In the short term sure. But new VIPs won’t have unlimited. They will have extra, but not unlimited. As VIPs exit, there will be fewer and fewer who have unlimited housekeeping. The new VIPs who rent out might have to add in the HK cost to their rental price.

I doubt it. So many just trying to cover maintenance fees. The burden begins with not being able to travel. The reality is owners not traveling will rent for less then their cost to cover some of the maintenance fees.

 

[Roger830]

I hear you, I'm 20,000 points short of an additional credit. $159 is a pretty steep fee but I think Richelle's theory about averaging the cost is correct. It doesn't cost $159 to clean a hotel room or a 400 Square Foot Studio, but it has to cost more than that to clean a 3 or 4 bedroom unit.

Using a simple average cost is the wrong way to do it because there are many more studios and 1-bed than 3 and 4-bed units.

They should use a weighted average. Multiply the quantity of each unit type by the unit type cleaning cost, add those costs, then divide by the total amount of units in the points system.

I just checked some 1,2,3 bedroom condos in Wildwood, NJ for June on vrbo and cleaning fees are $75-$125.

Charging $159 to captive members who have no vote is price gouging.

 

[Eric B]

Using a simple average cost is the wrong way to do it because there are many more studios and 1-bed than 3 and 4-bed units.

They should use a weighted average. Multiply the quantity of each unit type by the unit type cleaning cost, add those costs, then divide by the total amount of units in the points system.

I just checked some 1,2,3 bedroom condos in Wildwood, NJ for June on vrbo and cleaning fees are $75-$125.

Charging $159 to captive members who have no vote is price gouging.

I hadn’t seen any statements regarding how they were determining the housekeeping costs, just speculation that it was an average cost without discussion of the possibility of weighting.

My purely speculative input is that the price was selected based, in part only, on the costs of having the housekeeping done, in combination with a desire to disincentivize short stays that are cost drivers.

I’m not sure the VRBO cleaning fees are necessarily comparable. VRBO posters are not limited to using such fees and only those fees for cleaning, are they? Are the postings available for variable lengths of stays (1-14 days), or are they for set periods? Probably a lot of variables that go into setting those prices.

I do agree that setting a housekeeping fee of $159 for any stay could be perceived as price gouging, particularly when those costs have been traditionally included in maintenance fees. That’s not what has happened, though. Instead, Wyndham is allocating a certain number of free housekeeping credits to owners based on point allocations that are paid for, possibly averaging to one credit for the equivalent of a week stay in some sort of unit. On top of that, they’ve established a cost for additional credits.

 

[dgalati]

Like others have mentioned, I'm disappointed that housekeeping credits can't be pushed forward with points.

Also the cost of $159 is way too high for a one bedroom or less. We used to book a hotel room in midtown nyc. Why does it cost $159 to clean one room? Super8 motel rooms rent for less than $100. Are they not cleaned?

Also when 70 is divided into my yearly total points, I have 63 left over that now can't be used. (63/70 = 90%) Why can't I buy 7 more credits each year for $15.90? I shouldn't lose that $143.10

$159 is way out of line when you factor in the maintenance fees paid. This fee helps to subsidize the free HKs that are received by Vip owners. I feel Wyndham should be doing more to eliminate free HKs that the mega renters are using to abuse the systems loopholes. Adding this $159 HK fee to non VIP owners is subsidizing the free VIP HKs. VIP owners that are mega renters are using VIP discounts along with their resale points are at the expense of non VIP owners using the club for personal use. JMHO

 

[dgalati]

I do agree that setting a housekeeping fee of $159 for any stay could be perceived as price gouging, particularly when those costs have been traditionally included in maintenance fees. That’s not what has happened, though. Instead, Wyndham is allocating a certain number of free housekeeping credits to owners based on point allocations that are paid for, possibly averaging to one credit for the equivalent of a week stay in some sort of unit. On top of that, they’ve established a cost for additional credits.

$159 is price gouging. When you consider the free HKs allotted to VIP owners the $159 is a way to subsidize the FREE HK's for VIP owners.

 

[liquidmas]

I moved points forward and paid extra to have housecleaning credits to match points. I spoke with owner care to confirm that those points moved would have HK credits after the change. Yes they will be given 1 per 70K points moved. I will be alright with the change. This does add value to existing VIP accounts. Does not hurt me with how I book.

 

[spackler]

Technically, someone could book more 2021 vacations than their new HK allotment allows right now; will those people be charged $159 retroactively?

 

[northovr]

Leave Housework At Home
Your Housekeeping Credits just got a refresh. With these updates you won’t have to worry about your length of stay or size of suite. You simply need 1 Housekeeping Credit plus your points per reservation. Here’s how it works:
You’ll receive 1 Housekeeping Credit per 70,000 points annually at the start of your Use Year. These Housekeeping Credits will only be needed when you book a reservation through Club Wyndham or Wyndham Club Pass — you won’t need Housekeeping Credits for exchanges, points deposits, or charitable gift donations.
How will this work if you deposit in Interval International?
Daniel

 

[tschwa2]

Just for comparison RCI's typical housekeeping charge for those staying less than 7 days (or book in such a way that they have to change units- maybe a Wed-Wed) a studio -1br is $60-$80 a 2BR is $80-$115 and 3BR and larger $120-$150. Wyndham has recently updated their rci housekeeping fees to a flat $75 regardless of size.

Keep in mind though that if 2 people are splitting a week 3/4 or 5/2 the fee from both parties for a 2 BR would be an average of $200 for the one extra cleaning as the unit would be cleaned at the end of the week through the regular MF's.

 

[cbyrne1174]

Why don't they just use the same fees as Worldmark for extra housekeeping? Honestly, they should just add Bonus Time to Club Wyndham for stays 14 days before check in. That will get rid of the issue of studios not getting booked because people don't want to waste housekeeping tokens. They should also make the fees the SAME as Worldmark for extra cleanings, like in the chart I linked below in Worldmark's owner guide. Making last minute inventory available to owners for CASH will increase their revenue by increasing their occupancy. What makes timeshares profitable is high occupancy and the owners can still occupy the inventory that is left over from defaults/unsold points. If this was about revenue/profit, they're doing it wrong. Nobody is going to want to stay in a studio now and their is no system in place for people to pick up the inventory last minute.

 

[dgalati]

Why don't they just use the same fees as Worldmark for extra housekeeping? Honestly, they should just add Bonus Time to Club Wyndham for stays 14 days before check in. That will get rid of the issue of studios not getting booked because people don't want to waste housekeeping tokens. They should also make the fees the SAME as Worldmark for extra cleanings, like in the chart I linked below in Worldmark's owner guide. Making last minute inventory available to owners for CASH will increase their revenue by increasing their occupancy. What makes timeshares profitable is high occupancy and the owners can still occupy the inventory that is left over from defaults/unsold points. If this was about revenue/profit, they're doing it wrong. Nobody is going to want to stay in a studio now and their is no system in place for people to pick up the inventory last minute.

View attachment 27721

Common sense perspective from a owner owning both Wyndham and Worldmark. Its insane to see Worldmark only charges $150 for a four bedroom compared to Wyndhams across the board fee of $159 on all room sizes. I still think the $159 is a clever way to subsidize the free HK's for VIP owners. Worldmark is a better deal imho if you are not inclined to buy into the status of VIP.

 

[Richelle]

$159 is way out of line when you factor in the maintenance fees paid. This fee helps to subsidize the free HKs that are received by Vip owners. I feel Wyndham should be doing more to eliminate free HKs that the mega renters are using to abuse the systems loopholes. Adding this $159 HK fee to non VIP owners is subsidizing the free VIP HKs. VIP owners that are mega renters are using VIP discounts along with their resale points are at the expense of non VIP owners using the club for personal use. JMHO

Do you have solid proof that the $159 is to subsidize the cost of VIP free housekeeping or is it a theory? If you have proof, please share it. Also, I should mention that those cheap rentals you are always talking about, are possible because VIP gets resale cheap and are able to use their VIP benefits with those points. So by advocating that it goes away, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You'll always have desperate owners, but the less profit there is in renting, the fewer people who will rent. You'll be left with the desperate ones that are struggling to keep up with their loans and maintenance fee payments. You better hope they don't get behind on their payments because your reservation will get canceled and you lose that money. Not to mention there will be less rental supply, so prices go up. The good news though is we owners will have more inventory available. The ones who actually want to use it for their own personal use and enjoyment can do just that. I won't lose anything if they take away the ability to use VIP benefits on resale points. Every year we do at least one big family vacation that requires planning far out and a lot of points. The points that are left, are less than the 700k that are VIP eligible. Between discounts and upgrades, I can get plenty of vacations with the points that are considered VIP eligible. They will be for my own personal use and enjoyment. So it won't bother me if they take it away, but it will bother a lot of people, and not just mega renters, Actual owners who use their timeshare for themselves. The retirees who snowbird over the winter, or travel the country with their timeshare. I believe that change will hurt more people than help. I see your rental market getting hurt by the housekeeping change. It will get hurt even more if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale points. The resale market will be hurt too. Hopefully, the people who want to will be able to use Ovations.

 

[dgalati]

Do you have solid proof that the $159 is to subsidize the cost of VIP free housekeeping or is it a theory? If you have proof, please share it. Also, I should mention that those cheap rentals you are always talking about, are possible because VIP gets resale cheap and are able to use their VIP benefits with those points. So by advocating that it goes away, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You'll always have desperate owners, but the less profit there is in renting, the fewer people who will rent. You'll be left with the desperate ones that are struggling to keep up with their loans and maintenance fee payments. You better hope they don't get behind on their payments because your reservation will get canceled and you lose that money. Not to mention there will be less rental supply, so prices go up. The good news though is we owners will have more inventory available. The ones who actually want to use it for their own personal use and enjoyment can do just that. I won't lose anything if they take away the ability to use VIP benefits on resale points. Every year we do at least one big family vacation that requires planning far out and a lot of points. The points that are left, are less than the 700k that are VIP eligible. Between discounts and upgrades, I can get plenty of vacations with the points that are considered VIP eligible. They will be for my own personal use and enjoyment. So it won't bother me if they take it away, but it will bother a lot of people, and not just mega renters, Actual owners who use their timeshare for themselves. The retirees who snowbird over the winter, or travel the country with their timeshare. I believe that change will hurt more people than help. I see your rental market getting hurt by the housekeeping change. It will get hurt even more if they take away the ability to use our VIP benefits with resale points. The resale market will be hurt too. Hopefully, the people who want to will be able to use Ovations.

Its not about me and how I have made the system work for my personal use. I just am calling out this additional fee that supports the Free HK's. I agree @Richelle it will hurt the cheap rentals to a certain extent. My point is the $159 is subsidizing the FREE HK's. IMHO Wyndham made a decision to protect the goose that laid the golden egg (VIP Owners that spent 6 figures) and sacrificed the common owner. This policy only benefits VIP owners using free HK'S to rent the resale points that are used with VIP benefits. My question to you prove to me how it doesn't benefit VIP owners with free HK's the most. I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations. FREE HK's are being abused by VIP mega renters that use them with resale points and the VIP discounts. Worldmark has a much better way of charging this additional fee and at a much lower cost to the owners.

 

[Richelle]

Its not about me and how I have made the system work for my personal use. I just am calling out this additional fee that supports the Free HK's. I agree @Richelle it will hurt the cheap rentals to a certain extent. My point is the $159 is subsidizing the FREE HK's. IMHO Wyndham made a decision to protect the goose that laid the golden egg (VIP Owners that spent 6 figures) and sacrificed the common owner. This policy only benefits VIP owners using free HK'S to rent the resale points that are used with VIP benefits. My question to you prove to me how it doesn't benefit VIP owners with free HK's the most. I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations. FREE HK's are being abused by VIP mega renters that use them with resale points and the VIP discounts. Worldmark has a much better way of charging this additional fee and at a much lower cost to the owners.

I never said anything about it benefiting or not benefiting VIP owners the most. I asked you a question that you did not answer. My question was, do you have proof that the reason they are charging $159 is to subsidize free HK for VIPs? If they need to subsidize, it seems stupid to do it that way. Why not increase the program fee to cover it? That way you’d be spreading the cost of the free housekeeping across 440,000 owners and very few people question why they raised the program fee. If they were trying to hide their “real” motives, it seems tacking on a few pennies to the program fee would gather less attention then this. Your conspiracy theory doesn’t pan out when there are better and easier methods to make up for a shortage in housekeeping costs.

 

[paxsarah]

I am open to others view points but the additional fee will really hurt the owners that use the club for personal use booking 2-3 night get away reservations.

The old HK fee structure did as well. The old way more hurt the owner who might want to grab a larger unit for that 2-3 nights; the new one is more likely to hurt the owner who wants a studio for the same short trip. (And not just one short trip balanced against longer trips, but taking only shorter trips.) But short stays were always the pitfall of HK, and still will be.

 

[Eric B]

... short stays were always the pitfall of HK, and still will be.

I’m pretty sure that’s a feature of the system, not a bug....

 

[Sandi Bo]

I thought the idea was simplicity, from an IT perspective. I saw quite a bit of struggle, on Wyndham's IT side, aligning/ensuring appropriate HK points were available before point deposits (or earlier credit pooling) were able to be done. Even with unlimited housekeeping, Wyndham has had to mess around with aligning HK points in order to move points. My conspiracy theory is Wyndham is trying to make things simpler. Left over growing pains from going from weeks based reservations to the voyager methodology?

 

[Eric B]

Wow just a FYI.. Glad we can opt out of the daily house keeping.

Desert Blue - Daily Housekeeping
Thank you for choosing Desert Blue for your upcoming stay. We look forward to your visit.

Please be advised that your current reservation does not include daily housekeeping, however the State of Nevada mandates that Wyndham provides daily housekeeping (a full clean service for an additional charge) for the duration of your stay. You have the option to decline the daily housekeeping. If you decline, you will not be charged for daily housekeeping.

The cost of daily housekeeping will be:

$55 per night for a studio + tax
$70 per night for a 1 bedroom standard + tax
$95 per night for a 1 bedroom deluxe + tax
$110 per night for a 2 bedroom deluxe + tax
$125 per night for a 3 bedroom deluxe + tax
$140 per night for a 1 bedroom presidential + tax
$160 per night for a 2 bedroom presidential + tax
$175 per night for a 3 bedroom presidential + tax
$245 per night for a 4 bedroom presidential + tax

Interesting post here (from a different thread) listing the HK costs for daily full cleanings at Desert Blue. Makes the flat rate $159 for a credit seem not terribly off from an average cost.

 

[northovr]

why does it cost 50 dollars extra to clean a 3 bedroom presidential how much different could it be?
Plus how is the Interval International deposit going to be affected by this new housekeeping rule?
Thanks Daniel

 

[Eric B]

why does it cost 50 dollars extra to clean a 3 bedroom presidential how much different could it be?
...

My guess is that the 3 BR Presidential units are larger (1553-1919 sq ft) than the 3 BR Deluxe (1399 sq ft). Floor plan for a 3 BR Deluxe shows 2 bathrooms as compared to the listed 2 3/4 bathrooms for a 3 BR Presidential (and they probably get nicer toilet paper). There might also be different appliances. I would probably peg the added cost mostly to the additional bathrooms, though I've never been there.

... how is the Interval International deposit going to be affected by this new housekeeping rule?
Thanks Daniel

The discussion on the Wyndham site included this (emphasis added):

These Housekeeping Credits will only be needed when you book a reservation through Club Wyndham or Wyndham Club Pass — you won’t need Housekeeping Credits for exchanges, points deposits, or charitable gift donations.