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New credit card fee

Quinte

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Received the message that HPP fee is due for 2025. When I went in to pay it now sends you to a different website. That webise indicated that there is now a $25 fee for paying by credit card. The logic is to keep maintenance fees low. I wonder how many people actually pay by cheque? Is this just a way to increase the fees but make it look optional?

As a Canadian paying by cheque is somewhat impractical. I also realized that cheque technology is really on its way out here. I have probably written one cheque in the last year.
 

dioxide45

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Millions of checks are still processed every day. Certainly volume is down but doing eChecks (ACH processing) is quite reliable and cheap. Though I don't see how this would work for cross border transactions. I would think the bank would need to be US based. Perhaps they have a way of drafting a Canadian account? Does the new system even allow you to use a non US based check?
 

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The issue is with the payment company...in that when transferring money from Canada, they do not recognize some of the transfer options available to Canadians. You could look into a WISE account, as recommended to me by another tugger who did this, but for me the payment company (the system) would not recognize the account for what ever reason. One other issue, the system posted that it accepted payment even though the payment did not process, "rejected" in a few days.
 

jwalk03

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I write at least 3 checks every month. 2 for my housekeeper who comes every other week as she prefers a check over electronic payments. and 1 for my combined monthly electric/water/trash bill- as the city I live in charges an extra fee to pay online (they only recently started accepting online payments at all). So I write the check and drop it off to save the fee since I drive right by the municipal office building frequently anyway.
 
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I haven't received anything yet (maybe it's just Canada), but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Seems like every company is passing the fees on instead of factoring them into the cost of doing business. My HOA changed payment providers and an ACH that used to be free now has a $1 fee associated with it. Of course you can mail a check or use bill pay, which mails the check for you to avoid the fee, but it's still annoying.
 

jp10558

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This just comes right back to the insanity that companies think it's cheaper to pay someone somewhere to receive a check, risk it bouncing, being forged, all the reasons lots of people STOPPED taking checks, and handle depositing vs an online payment. To then charge extra to have a human involved is even stranger.
 

jp10558

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I haven't received anything yet (maybe it's just Canada), but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Seems like every company is passing the fees on instead of factoring them into the cost of doing business. My HOA changed payment providers and an ACH that used to be free now has a $1 fee associated with it. Of course you can mail a check or use bill pay, which mails the check for you to avoid the fee, but it's still annoying.
You know, if the government cared about climate change, they'd basically legislate away taking checks by mail. And make it illegal to charge a fee for taking Zelle / ACH / Paypal. I'd actually like them to also just force an end to all fees, just have the "price" advertised or billed be the price you pay!

We need to stop encouraging people to use cash and checks and burning gas and resources to be able to do it.
 
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It's all a pendulum. 25 years ago nobody wanted to do a payment online and wanted a cash or check. 5 years ago nobody wanted a check or cash. Now we're swinging back the other way. Maybe I'm just cheap, but in the case of my HOA, wanting another $12 a year for the pleasure of easily paying them just really hacked me off.

I play in the cards and points arena a lot so I'm always trying to maximize, but the direction the entire financial industry is headed I think those days are numbered. As annual fees come due I've been cancelling and downgrading cards.
 

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I haven't received anything yet (maybe it's just Canada), but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Seems like every company is passing the fees on instead of factoring them into the cost of doing business. My HOA changed payment providers and an ACH that used to be free now has a $1 fee associated with it. Of course you can mail a check or use bill pay, which mails the check for you to avoid the fee, but it's still annoying.
Isn't mailing a check still paying fees? Stamps aren't free.
 

dioxide45

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It's all a pendulum. 25 years ago nobody wanted to do a payment online and wanted a cash or check. 5 years ago nobody wanted a check or cash. Now we're swinging back the other way. Maybe I'm just cheap, but in the case of my HOA, wanting another $12 a year for the pleasure of easily paying them just really hacked me off.

I play in the cards and points arena a lot so I'm always trying to maximize, but the direction the entire financial industry is headed I think those days are numbered. As annual fees come due I've been cancelling and downgrading cards.
It isn't the financial industry really doing this, it is government regulation. Government regulation lead to the ability for merchants to charge fees for using a credit card. Additional proposed government regulation could fundamentally change the reward card industry. We just need to remember, nothing is free. Those rewards come at a cost, whether we see that as an additional charge or not.
 

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It isn't the financial industry really doing this, it is government regulation. Government regulation lead to the ability for merchants to charge fees for using a credit card. Additional proposed government regulation could fundamentally change the reward card industry. We just need to remember, nothing is free. Those rewards come at a cost, whether we see that as an additional charge or not.
Agreed but as long as the people paying 25% interest are paying for my rewards I'm fine with it.
 

dioxide45

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You know, if the government cared about climate change, they'd basically legislate away taking checks by mail. And make it illegal to charge a fee for taking Zelle / ACH / Paypal. I'd actually like them to also just force an end to all fees, just have the "price" advertised or billed be the price you pay!

We need to stop encouraging people to use cash and checks and burning gas and resources to be able to do it.
Based on this and many other comments I've seen of yours in the forums, you really seem to like the idea of additional government regulation and intervention in the marketplace to try and "fix" things. Government intervention is really what got us into this situation. There was a time when merchant agreements between the credit card processors and merchants prevented merchants from surcharging. That went away many years ago. There are a few states that don't allow surcharging by law, but those are very limited.

Checks in the United States are primarily processed electronically. The Check 21 Act was enacted after 911 after the grounding of US aircraft halted the transportation of paper checks. This was to modernize the clearing house process within the Federal Reserve Bank to be able to process electronic versions of a check. This is the primary reason why you can deposit a check on your smart phone. Many checks are also automatically converted to ACH transactions and a check image is never sent to the bank it was payable on. While there are costs for merchants in processing paper based transactions, those costs likely don't rise to the same costs as processing credit card transactions. Especially when you will have the employee working anyway. Sure you can divert their efforts elsewhere, but that isn't always practical. Processing hundreds of thousands of dollars in checks and cash doesn't necessarily rise to 3%-4% of the value of those checks or the cash.

Then there is also the issue that going to 100% digital payments disproportionately impacts the poor and certain demographics in the population. It is estimated that over 4% or almost 5 million households are "unbanked". Meaning they either don't have a bank account by choice or can't get one due to past issues. By forcing them to digital transactions, it can put them into situations where they may be taken advantage of with higher fees to use services that will accept them (such as payday check cashing, prepaid debit cards, etc).

The best thing to do is for the government to get out of the way and allow for businesses and customers to complete transactions in whichever way they all agree to.

I won't go into the reasons why they don't do anything you suggest because of climate change, as that would derail the thread even more.
 

dioxide45

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Agreed but as long as the people paying 25% interest are paying for my rewards I'm fine with it.
But for the most part, it isn't people paying interest that pays for your rewards. The primary factor that drives rewards is merchant processing fees. This is why some of the premium Visa reward cards have some of the highest merchant fees. In some cases a merchant may not even know what the fee will be when they process the transaction because they don't know what kind of reward card the customer is using. Merchant fees, if not passed on as a surcharge, are just baked into the cost of the goods or services you are purchasing. So you are, in the end, still paying for those rewards. You just don't see it until a merchant decides to surcharge.
 

dioxide45

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Received the message that HPP fee is due for 2025. When I went in to pay it now sends you to a different website. That webise indicated that there is now a $25 fee for paying by credit card. The logic is to keep maintenance fees low. I wonder how many people actually pay by cheque? Is this just a way to increase the fees but make it look optional?

As a Canadian paying by cheque is somewhat impractical. I also realized that cheque technology is really on its way out here. I have probably written one cheque in the last year.
Doing some research on this. It may not be legal for the HOA to surcharge for international transactions. You may want to research this and call them with your payment to try and get out of paying the $25 fee.

I know that our Marriott Vacation Club HOA budgets have a credit card processing fee built in. So all owners are paying some level of credit card fees as these are simply passed on to the owners as they are a real cost to the HOA.
 

jp10558

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Based on this and many other comments I've seen of yours in the forums, you really seem to like the idea of additional government regulation and intervention in the marketplace to try and "fix" things. Government intervention is really what got us into this situation. There was a time when merchant agreements between the credit card processors and merchants prevented merchants from surcharging. That went away many years ago. There are a few states that don't allow surcharging by law, but those are very limited.
I'll avoid becoming political as that isn't what this forum is for. I'm just saying that processing costs are a cost of doing business. Trying to drip pricing stuff is anti-consumer and is pissing almost everyone off. Clearly the market isn't going this way or we wouldn't have constant posts about these fees. And worse, allowing it here is seemingly emboldening places to add more junk fees like the "food prep fee 20%" at one of the restaurant threads. My recycling company has a fuel surcharge fee. WTF? This idea should be stopped - we went till ~2010 without most junk fees and companies didn't go out of business. This is as bad as the old telephone companies and our insane medical system - "We don't know how much it'll cost till we bill you". How is this acceptable between customers and merchants? Worse, they imply right up till you are pretty on the hook to pay that there aren't these fees. (i.e. you already got the meal and ate it)
While there are costs for merchants in processing paper based transactions, those costs likely don't rise to the same costs as processing credit card transactions. Especially when you will have the employee working anyway. Sure you can divert their efforts elsewhere, but that isn't always practical. Processing hundreds of thousands of dollars in checks and cash doesn't necessarily rise to 3%-4% of the value of those checks or the cash.
My main point is - it rises to some percentage. But I'm pretty sure legally they cannot surcharge cash purchases. I'm mostly suggesting the government offer a digital cash alternative - I'll bet they could stop minting pennies and spend that to provide it for free like they provide cash for free (well, at face value, no extra printing or minting or transporting fees). When I get a check from someone, I don't know if it'll clear, I get lots of fees and can lose my account if I get sent bad checks. You won't know at point of sale if the check is good, but you do with a debit / credit card (excluding fraud). Also, as a consumer, checks are very insecure against ACH from what I can tell - there's no free change the numbers if it gets stolen, there's potentially no get your money back protection, etc.

And I'm suggesting that you won't need to have the employee at all if you have less paper checks or cash coming in and more digital. Look, IMO the large companies are just using this as yet another way to sneakily raise prices, the small companies both are taking more of a hit (less likely to have automated ACH processing, etc) and are more likely to just be wrong about the comparable costs to them.
Then there is also the issue that going to 100% digital payments disproportionately impacts the poor and certain demographics in the population. It is estimated that over 4% or almost 5 million households are "unbanked". Meaning they either don't have a bank account by choice or can't get one due to past issues. By forcing them to digital transactions, it can put them into situations where they may be taken advantage of with higher fees to use services that will accept them (such as payday check cashing, prepaid debit cards, etc).
Yes, but why should 96% of the population have higher fees because merchants can't make it part of their cost of doing business? Again, I'm not as against merchants just taking cash or checks. I can choose easily to avoid those businesses or not, and everyone is happy (I guess). I am against the go to check out and oh - here's 4% extra charge. My bigger gripe is one of the things posted above where even paying by ACH has a fee or paying ONLINE has a fee. Online payments should be the cheapest form of payment IMO - you don't need employees to do them. Or is all the griping about labor costs more fake justification to just add fees and book more profits?
The best thing to do is for the government to get out of the way and allow for businesses and customers to complete transactions in whichever way they all agree to.
I'm just asking for all the information up front in the advertisement from the business as to cost so I'm not having ever more of my life like buying an airline ticket. And the way to get that feels like it has to be political.
I won't go into the reasons why they don't do anything you suggest because of climate change, as that would derail the thread even more.
Yes, like my other rants on things, they're happy to spend a lot of money selling new stuff like EVs and Solar which has a lot of new production payoff associated with it instead of reducing use via things we already have and have shown to work for years to decades. Though my main bitch is "get off my lawn" as to why I have to spend more time now physically going to pay bills via cash or a check like it's 1970 in 2024 than I did from 1999-2015 or so(to avoid junk fees). I really should not need to do math as to whether my time, gas, mileage on my car and how it compares to the extra fees.
 

marmite

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Merchant fees, if not passed on as a surcharge, are just baked into the cost of the goods or services you are purchasing. So you are, in the end, still paying for those rewards. You just don't see it until a merchant decides to surcharge.
Yes, we pay for it no matter what. The merchants need to pass on those fees through higher prices to everyone, even if it is just some of us using the most expensive types of payment. I love, love, love the points I get with American Express. I use my card anywhere that takes it. However, those people paying with cash and credit cards with lower merchant fees are subsidizing my purchases with it, wouldn't you say? Maybe people paying cash should be more pissed off that their lunch costs more because the vendor accepts Amex. ;)

Even though surcharges at some businesses for using credit are annoying, I still have the choice of how to pay and am paying my fair share (as long as the merchant is only covering their costs and not trying to make a profit on the surcharge). Paying US bills from Canada is such a pain, I do rely on my US Credit Card a lot. So I am in the same boat as the OP, I haven't written a cheque in years. There are very few digital payment options between Canada & US... I wish I had Zelle.
 

jp10558

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Yes, we pay for it no matter what. The merchants need to pass on those fees through higher prices to everyone, even if it is just some of us using the most expensive types of payment. I love, love, love the points I get with American Express. I use my card anywhere that takes it. However, those people paying with cash and credit cards with lower merchant fees are subsidizing my purchases with it, wouldn't you say? Maybe people paying cash should be more pissed off that their lunch costs more because the vendor accepts Amex. ;)
Should me paying with my card be pissed off I'm subsidizing the extra employee to make up for the time handling cash, or the bathroom I may not use? I guess the surcharge is a negative supplement as the cashier also has to take out a calculator to figure out what the bill should be to add the 3% or whatever. Plus, from what I know, the fees aren't a flat 3%, and certainly are't 4% so in that case it's just profit IMO. I'm sure it's better for me - I just need to get over dropping the stuff on the counter and saying - oh I didn't know you had a fee, I guess I don't want this then. Though I'm most pissed off again when it's not like I can just walk out because it's sprung on me at a mechanic for instance, and I don't tend to want to carry $1,000 in cash just in case the mechanic is going to surprise with the fee.

And take away the less spending overall people do with cash, either cause they literally don't have the money, or because they feel worse physically taking money out of their wallet. This is a benefit to me I guess from all this - I'm going to spend less! Of course, the reason they hide the fee till the last minute is because they realize they would lose a substantial amount of business from people walking away cause they don't have cash.

Look, I just want to be able to actually make an informed decision as to whether I want to buy the product or service, which I can't do when the fees are hidden like this.
 

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You know, if the government cared about climate change, they'd basically legislate away taking checks by mail. And make it illegal to charge a fee for taking Zelle / ACH / Paypal. I'd actually like them to also just force an end to all fees, just have the "price" advertised or billed be the price you pay!

We need to stop encouraging people to use cash and checks and burning gas and resources to be able to do it.
So you want to make legal tender illegal...
 

jp10558

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So you want to make legal tender illegal...
What? No I don't think I said that... I'm happy for people to use whatever they like, I'm just suggesting that encouraging digital payments could save a lot of costs for everyone, if we make a version available and free to use. As far as I know, checks were never legal tender - places don't HAVE to take them.
 

dioxide45

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What? No I don't think I said that... I'm happy for people to use whatever they like, I'm just suggesting that encouraging digital payments could save a lot of costs for everyone, if we make a version available and free to use. As far as I know, checks were never legal tender - places don't HAVE to take them.
If digital payments were cheaper, then merchants would be more than happy to move to 100% digital payments. That doesn't seem to be the case since they want to surcharge for them. If enough people drop their stuff at the cash register and leave when presented with a surcharge, then the merchant might think twice about charging it. If a merchant loses enough business because people don't return because of a surcharge, they will rethink the fee unless they go out of business first.

I made a few purchases in Nevada recently where the merchant added a fee. One was at a gas station for items purchased inside and the other was at a gift shop. I paid the fee because I needed/wanted the stuff but I could have left too. The fee was presented before I tapped my card. I won't go back, but that is because I probably won't be back to those places.

People need to vote with their wallets. No one is forcing anyone into a transaction. If a merchant would rather accept cash then let them. I just disagree in your premise that somehow government intervention will fix all the that impact the marketplace.

The main grips about surcharges come from people who think their rewards are free when they really are not.
 

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So you want to make legal tender illegal...
Seems to also be a heavy proponent of a centralized digital currency. Something that could prove rather troubling.

As for my mention about past comments on regulation. These are a few;
"I'm generally judicious with regulation,"
"Hence why I support regulation in this area"
"I'm often a fan of some regulation to keep companies from getting too stupid"
 

rickandcindy23

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I don't like taking credit cards through Paypal for my rentals.
 

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I don't like taking credit cards through Paypal for my rentals.
I suspect this is because of the fees and chance of chargebacks. A lot of people like to say that checks and cash are open to fraud. The same thing is true regarding credit card transactions. Usually honest people are often more likely to file a dispute without ever contacting the merchant for a remedy. These same people would never think about writing a bad check.

Chargebacks have fixed costs to a business along with losing the money from the product or service they sold. Overall chargebacks cost merchants tens of billions of dollars every year. That is about the same as, if not more than, check fraud.
 

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I just don't like paying the Paypal fee for accepting credit cards.

The verify/ protect option of RW covers the fees, so if Paypal is charging 3%, I am okay paying the $99 RW success fee because a rental that is $4k is going to cost me $120 in Paypal fees. Cheaper to pay the $99 success fee. Of course, the loser is the renter, because not only do they have to pay my price plus the $99 and the listing fee (I add to the rental cost), but RW also charges a higher rate to the guest.
 
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