New ADA Compliance at Harbour Point

[rsackett]

I own at Harbour Point as a fixed week/unit owner.

This is taken from the latest Harbour Point News - Owner Update:

"Meeting ADA requirements will require substantial capital outlay and the Act does not permit much time to comply. Some of the major 2012 items are pool and hot tub lifts, access from the lobby to the pool, electronic opening front door to the lobby, and five ADA compliant villas (ground floor , “C” units in Osprey)."

I own one of the six ground floor units in the Osprey building. I am assuming that since 5 of the 6 ground floor units are being made ADA compliant mine will be one of them.

What do you think this means for my future vacations? Will I be moved to whatever room is available, will we ever be put in one of the smaller rooms, will the resort no-longer be treated as a fixed unit resort?

I understand the need, but I am not too thrilled about my unit being one to the sacrificial lambs for the resort.

Ray

 

[vacationhopeful]

I heard the same pool and hot tub issue for the Wyndham resorts in Pompano at the annual meeting last month. I am sure several of the resorts will have to do the front lobby door replacement also. Only the Santa Barbara resort has the electric door.

As for the units and fixed week --- what a PIA for you. I know I would NOT love a converted kitchen or bathroom. But this would also include wider doorways, bells and flashing lights on the doors and smoke alarms, etc.

I would be sending a certified letter to the HOA and management company demanding that your deeded property not be converted (taken for the greater good of the resort) with full refund of ALL your monies plus interest --- remember, ALL RESERVE payments on your MFs are part of the basis value of your ownership along with titling and closing costs.

PS. I believe the converted units can NOT be all located together - but must be scattered thru out the resort.

 

[pedro47]

I own at Harbour Point as a fixed week/unit owner.

This is taken from the latest Harbour Point News - Owner Update:

"Meeting ADA requirements will require substantial capital outlay and the Act does not permit much time to comply. Some of the major 2012 items are pool and hot tub lifts, access from the lobby to the pool, electronic opening front door to the lobby, and five ADA compliant villas (ground floor , “C” units in Osprey)."

Thanks for the information must be some major changes in the ADA Title III Public Accommodation section.

I will search this items: pool & hot tub lifts.

The other I was aware of. This sure be a tax write off to compliance with the ADA law.

ADA compliant ground floor villas should be meet accessibility for a wheel chair to enter the front door of villas, the correct height for kitchen appliances, and bathroom accessibility, etc.

The handicapped parking space should be directly in front of the villas with proper handicapped parking size and markings.

 

[timeos2]

Yes, it is a relatively new ADA mandate. Right now it is unclear if the lifts are ok as portables or if permanent installations are required. It is under review. The lobby & pool access appears to be set in stone.

I can see where a fixed unit resort will have problems retrofitting some accessable units. That too appears to be non-negotiable as far as ADA is concerned. I doubt tthey would take it as a "taking" the unit. The resort may have to figure out a deal to reassign the altetrd units to owners that want/need them & give different non-changed units to those that demand that. Otherwise the owners live with the change I guess. Fortunately float resorts don't have that problem.

 

[KauaiMark]

Slightly off topic - ADA compliance

... major 2012 items are pool and hot tub lifts, .
Ray

This happened at my fitness club. The costs were going to be substantial so the club just filled the men's locker room jacuzzi with cement and tiled over it.

Fully ADA compliant since now NOONE had access to the jacuzzi.

...Mark

 

[dioxide45]

Harbour Point has A, B, C and D units. A being the largest and D the smallest. My guess is that if they have a handicapped guest that is booked in to an A unit and they place them in one of the retrofitted C units, then when the C unit person checks in, they may get placed in the A unit. the problem arises when a D owner occupies a handicap unit. I think they will have enough Marriott.com reservations that they will be able to get you in to a unit equal to or larger than what you own.

 

[dioxide45]

It seems like this was a real expensive retrofit for Barony Beach Club. They tore out an entire pool and are replacing it with one with zero entry.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

It seems like this was a real expensive retrofit for Barony Beach Club. They tore out an entire pool and are replacing it with one with zero entry.

Dioxide; I think there may have been other reasons they tore out the garden villas pool at Barony (such as installing heating elements, replacing crumbling cement, etc.).

A good retrofit for older pools (for ADA compliance) seems to be mechanized lifts located somewhere around the pool.

Is Marriott paying for this project at Barony or is it the HOA ? Anyone know?



.

 

[bdh]

This is taken from the latest Harbour Point News - Owner Update:

"Meeting ADA requirements will require substantial capital outlay and the Act does not permit much time to comply. Some of the major 2012 items are pool and hot tub lifts, access from the lobby to the pool, electronic opening front door to the lobby, and five ADA compliant villas (ground floor , “C” units in Osprey)."

From the sounds of it, Harbour Point is convinced that they are required to comply the 2010 ADA Standards - it is extremely questionable if that is really the case.

While Title III of the ADA Standard has contained language that "public accommodations must undertake readily achievable barrier removal" since 1992, the ADA has always provided considerable leeway on what is "readily achievable". IE: installing an automatic door operator is an easy and low cost task and should be done - ripping out a pool to install a zero entry is difficult and expensive and is not required. So there has never been a retroactive mandate for existing facilities that requires 100% compliance with every aspect of the Standard.

The "new" 2010 ADA Standard was issued Sept 15, 2010, the effective date is March 15, 2012 - the effective dates means that construction occurring after that date must comply - it does not mean existing facilities must be in compliance by March 15 2012.

The ADA requires compliance for construction of new facilities. The ADA also requires compliance for the portion of existing facilities being renovated up to a maximum cost of 20% of the project. (If the unit interiors are being renovated, that is the work that should pursue ADA compliance - if no pool work is planned, then no ADA work activity is required at the pool.) Once the cost of ADA renovations exceeds 20% of the overall project, the cost becomes disproportionate and no further ADA work activity is required. If no renovation work is planned, then there is no new requirement for 100% ADA compliance.

Note that there was considerable discussion during the 6 years leading up to the issuance of the 2010 ADA regarding the definition of "public accommodation". The outcome was the differential between "transient lodging facilities" and "residential dwellings" - simply stated, transient lodging facilities are hotels open to the public and residential dwellings are timeshare/condo units for use by owners. There are some unique instances where a timeshare/condo could be deemed transient lodging, however in the final rule, the DOJ added a provision to Sec. 36.406(c)(3), which states that units intended to be used exclusively for residential purposes that are contained in facilities that also meet the definition of place of lodging are not covered by the transient lodging standards. Title III of the ADA does not apply to units designed and constructed with the intention that they be rented or sold as exclusively residential units.

Or the short version, any TS property that believes there is a retroactive mandate for compliance with the 2010 ADA should seek professional design guidance as it will most likely save the HOA/owners significant dollars in non-required renovation costs. (Obviously there is nothing prohibiting voluntary compliance - just do so knowing that is it voluntary.)

 

[rsackett]

So do you think my unit now being an ADA room will effect the resale value (not that there is much), or how had it will be to sell?

Ray

 

[SueDonJ]

Dioxide; I think there may have been other reasons they tore out the garden villas pool at Barony (such as installing heating elements, replacing crumbling cement, etc.).

A good retrofit for older pools (for ADA compliance) seems to be mechanized lifts located somewhere around the pool.

Is Marriott paying for this project at Barony or is it the HOA ? Anyone know?



.

Barony's oceanfront pool is already ADA-compliant with a zero-entry feature so I'd guess the gardenview pool isn't being redone because of this. {eta} Or, does compliance require EVERY pool on property to be accessible?

This is from the notice a year ago when they first told us about the upcoming enhancements:

We have prioritized the plan to begin work on the Garden Side enhancements and the Pool Bar and Grill by the Fourth Quarter of 2011; provided we receive approvals and permits accordingly. The Pool Bar and Grill Project will be at no cost to the Association as it will be funded by Marriott Vacation Club. This project includes relocating the pool bar to a more central location on the feature pool deck with better seating, access and a true restaurant style kitchen. The Welcome Center/European Spa project is planned for 2012-2013.

From that I'd guess that the gardenview pool area re-do is being funded by the owners while the oceanfront grill area is being funded by MVCI. Barony's reserves have been healthy, this year's MF bill didn't appear to be a ridiculous increase over last year's, and there hasn't been any word about a possible shortage. Maybe that means we had the money in place to fund it?

This is the latest Barony newsletter if anyone wants to read it; there are a lot of details about all the work being done. From the first few paragraphs it appears they're getting questions from many owners about all this.

 

[SueDonJ]

So do you think my unit now being an ADA room will effect the resale value (not that there is much), or how had it will be to sell?

Ray

Hmmmm. These are all good questions you're asking, Ray. You might want to contact your GM or board for official answers. That "substantial outlay" thing? I'd want to know if any of it, and how much, will be collected from owners.

I'd be concerned, too, if I had a fixed unit and it was being re-done. I understand the need for HA units on property, but given the choice I wouldn't want to have to deal with some of the configurations - especially the kitchen and bath ones. It's one thing to know that in a floating system there's a chance you may be placed into an HA unit; it's another thing altogether if your fixed unit ownership forces you into that configuration every stay.

(For what it's worth, I wouldn't purchase a fixed HA unit/week. I don't think I'd be alone in that. So I'd say yes, your resale value will be affected.)

 

[Steve A]

Facilities are generally held to the compliance standards in place at the time they were built or when they were subject to a significant renovation.

 

[rsackett]

Facilities are generally held to the compliance standards in place at the time they were built or when they were subject to a significant renovation.

My building is scheduled for significant renovation starting next year. The building has 24 units in it 24 x 20% = 4.8 units, I wonder if this is how they decided on 5 units being HA.

Ray

 

[m61376]

My building is scheduled for significant renovation starting next year. The building has 24 units in it 24 x 20% = 4.8 units, I wonder if this is how they decided on 5 units being HA.

Ray

I don't think that any regulations require that 20% of all units be ADA compliant, because that would be way out of proportion to the handicapped populace.

It sounds like they are locating the accessible units in one building, which from a construction point of view makes sense because the common space renovations can all be made in one area. Of course, with fixed week units that becomes a huge issue, and I am surprised that they do not have to offer you a buy-out if they are substantially changing the unit that's on your deed. I wonder if the owners of those particular weeks/units have legal recourse, since both use wise and value wise they are suffering damages.

If the units are maintaining the same square footage, then the retrofit might be less accommodating to an able bodied guest, since bathroom and kitchen modifications eliminate cabinet space, etc. However, if they are somehow managing to increase the size of the units for the accommodations, they actually may not impinge on anyone's enjoyment of the unit. For example, many years ago we were on a cruise where a handicapped cabin had not been booked at the 6 week mark, and became open for anyone to book. We switched cabins and it was a great upgrade for free; the cabin was 150% the size, which was really nice. I enjoyed the added space much more than being encumbered by the modifications. So it is important to know what they are actually doing in the conversion and whether the units will remain desirable to other visitors as well.

Of course, it still leaves the issue that by doing this they have the right to substitute your fixed unit usage at whim, which again substantially changes the terms of your ownership.

 

[bdh]

If the units are maintaining the same square footage, then the retrofit might be less accommodating to an able bodied guest, since bathroom and kitchen modifications eliminate cabinet space, etc. However, if they are somehow managing to increase the size of the units for the accommodations, they actually may not impinge on anyone's enjoyment of the unit.

So it is important to know what they are actually doing in the conversion and whether the units will remain desirable to other visitors as well.

In existing facilities, the ADA does not and can not mandate a larger unit. The ADA's intent with existing facilities is to make them more accommodating if possible. The ADA contains the wording "Technically Infeasible" - that means that compliance is not required if the renovation work requires the removal of a necessary building component. IE: a load bearing wall, a sanitary stack serving the unit above, etc.

With the square footage of a typical TS unit, accommodating the ADA can most likely be accomplished by installing grab bars in toilet rooms, lowering the kitchen counter to 34 inches (in lieu of the standard 36 inches), installing wider doors into a bedroom and bath, etc. Typically, those items do not make a unit undesirable.

 

[pedro47]

This is a thread that I hope all developer's and HOA are reading for some outstanding factual information.