My Advice to Hilton Grand Vacations... Timeshare Traveler Episode 200

[Clifbell]

I wanted to provide Hilton Grand Vacation a list of what they should do more of to improve their program. I consider myself an experienced traveler and knowledgable of their program. But I also have some ideas on how the program could be better.

In this video, I go through the major opportunities for Hilton Grand Vacations. I try to express the opportunity from Hilton's perspective but also why it would be good for owners. The first opportunity is the benefit of expanding the program to more locations. The second is the upgrading of the purchased locations making new locations better. The third is access to the new locations by owners of the other groups (Diamond access to Hgv and visa versa). The last issue is destination exchange and how that can be made competitive to AirBnB.

My Advice to Hilton Grand Vacations... Timeshare Traveler Episode 200

Map of all my timeshare reviews

 

[lds337]

HGVC used to be an Excellent product. Now with the dilution of the product with Diamond and Blue Green it’s more on par with Wyndham.

HGVC could have successfully integrated these two acquisitions into a seamless program instead of creating multiple systems with the same company.

Marriott and Vistana merged and didn’t go and try and gouge their existing owners to integrate the systems.

HGVC is only pursuing new purchases. I have over a 100k HGVC points and will not spend any money to access an inferior product because Diamond and Blue Green resort stays aren’t nearly as nice. Why pay for a high end car and then end up with a Hyundai or Kia? Nothing wrong with Hyundai or Kia’s but you shouldn’t pay for a BMW or Lexus and accept a Kia instead. That’s what HGVC is offering you pay for high-end and exchange it for lower end.

If that was free to do then it’s up to me to make that decision. HGVC wants me to pay them for the privilege of trading down.

Hard Pass!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Clifbell]

HGVC used to be an Excellent product. Now with the dilution of the product with Diamond and Blue Green it’s more on par with Wyndham.

HGVC could have successfully integrated these two acquisitions into a seamless program instead of creating multiple systems with the same company.

Marriott and Vistana merged and didn’t go and try and gouge their existing owners to integrate the systems.

HGVC is only pursuing new purchases. I have over a 100k HGVC points and will not spend any money to access an inferior product because Diamond and Blue Green resort stays aren’t nearly as nice. Why pay for a high end car and then end up with a Hyundai or Kia? Nothing wrong with Hyundai or Kia’s but you shouldn’t pay for a BMW or Lexus and accept a Kia instead. That’s what HGVC is offering you pay for high-end and exchange it for lower end.

If that was free to do then it’s up to me to make that decision. HGVC wants me to pay them for the privilege of trading down.

Hard Pass!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is what I am hearing from a lot of people. I am finding the opportunity compelling but only if they do significant upgrades. I am starting to see more and more upgrades, but I do worry about the quality. I also think they should create incentives for owners to "give the other side a chance". I've heard from Diamond owners that they were worried about Hilton owners making it harder for them to stay at their resorts. So far Hilton has not created any incentives to address this and why I created the video (one of the reasons).

 

[free2travel]

HGVC used to be an Excellent product. Now with the dilution of the product with Diamond and Blue Green it’s more on par with Wyndham. HGVC could have successfully integrated these two acquisitions into a seamless program instead of creating multiple systems with the same company.

I am confused. You seem to be contradicting yourself. HGVC is the same product, as you point out by the "multiple systems" comment. Why would you want "seamless" access to inferior product, product that you clearly state is inferior. Why would they "integrate" them into a "seamless program"? As far as I can tell, HGVC did what you want. HGVC made it possible for HGVC owners to completely ignore DRI & BG. No added fees. No mandatory usage of those. Just ignore them.

 

[Clifbell]

I am confused. You seem to be contradicting yourself. HGVC is the same product, as you point out by the "multiple systems" comment. Why would you want "seamless" access to inferior product, product that you clearly state is inferior. Why would they "integrate" them into a "seamless program"? As far as I can tell, HGVC did what you want. HGVC made it possible for HGVC owners to completely ignore DRI & BG. No added fees. No mandatory usage of those. Just ignore them.

They have integrated them into a seemless product. But they haven't created enough incentives to get people to try more of the properties. There are negative feelings from Diamond and HGVC that a few "incentives" could improve. Hilton is missing an opportunity to sell points to the install base because of resistance. I think there is an opportunity to offer additional incentives to experience more of the resorts. Especially as they get upgraded and if the upgraded units are similar to the HGVC properties. HGVC can be seen as more like Wyndham or Marriott on a bigger scale if the upgrades and the incentives are managed well.

 

[free2travel]

They have not integrated them into a seamless product. That was lds' complaint and lds is right, but I don't see why lds complains about it.
In marketing-speak, they are silos. Aren't they giving Max to all new full-priced buyers? Max is the cross-silo access.

This is like the Woody Allen joke "the food was terrible. and such small portions".

"Who wants to trade into inferior stuff like DRI or BG? And why can't I trade into DRI or BG?"

 

[Clifbell]

They have not integrated them into a seamless product. That was lds' complaint and lds is right, but I don't see why lds complains about it.

Not completely seemless integration. I see the partial integration and the plans for seemless. Thank you for the comment.

 

[free2travel]

plans for seemless

As long as the quality of the physical assets are so disparate (as lds noted), it really would give low customer satisfaction to try to do that. It would almost be like putting the luxury boxes in the middle of the bleachers and the people in the luxury boxes have to listen to the "bleacher-bums" all day/night.
It takes a long time to significantly alter physical assets, so marketing and salesmanship is what they'll lean on.

 

[jp10558]

Personally, I just don't see why anyone would buy Max. I think the obvious win is the little I saw in my one presentation on DEX though. It seems to me like it could be an RCI competitor in a way. Though Max DEX seems different from DEX through Craig. The Max DEX shown to me (this is probably not really a thing, TS salesperson) but the site showed using HGVC points to book in DEX, and at least some "screaming deals" in off season - like 3500pts weeks in 2BR. Yes, these are RCI level resorts, but RCI conversions from HGVC seem more like 7300pts for that. Even more so, I'd like to see some competitive pressure on RCI to get exchange fees down.

I still think in general - no Developer really has a reason to make things more enticing to retail owners, what they've got works, at least for traditional timeshare owners. It would potentially make a difference in resale markets, but of course the developer wants to pretend resale just doesn't exist.

For TUG people, I see locations being of some interest in Diamond, but not enough to buy developer, and honestly, not enough to buy Diamond points. I see enough Diamond in RCI, and RCI Extra Vacations at that - at prices sub $1k for a 2BR. So for us, it'd need to compete with that.

Now, the thing on locations is - I can imagine there are different sorts of timeshare users - those like me, who at least right now are trying a new place every trip, and those who have one or maybe a few places they go to every time. The latter won't care about more locations. People like me do care, but not for the cost of Max especially the limitations of it.

To compete with AirB&B would require a different marketing method IMO, and one that may break their current generally successful system. That said, I think the internet has enough people with bad posts about AirB&B and bad news stories that their reputation is also just a little above timeshares, so there's at least a chance. The thing is, AirB&B is 0 membership, 0 commitment, and mostly ebay levels of support at best. Which in a lot of ways is what I think people in their 40s and younger want - we don't really want high touch sales, or needing to call in to CS to book or desire any sort of travel agent etc. All things the timeshare companies are doing or seem to be pursuing.

The hotel chains have answers to a lot of this, and some have speculated the more "long stay" sort of hotels is really their bid to compete with AirB&B. Timeshares could have an effective sales pitch, but really only resale, which again I don't think helps the developers so... Yea.

 

[jp10558]

As long as the quality of the physical assets are so disparate (as lds noted), it really would give low customer satisfaction to try to do that. It would almost be like putting the luxury boxes in the middle of the bleachers and the people in the luxury boxes have to listen to the "bleacher-bums" all day/night.
It takes a long time to significantly alter physical assets, so marketing and salesmanship is what they'll lean on.

I don't know how it works with Max, but if the point "prices" are low enough, it's reasonable to trade down for location for a certain segment of the population. Ideally they'd be less than the RCI price, but even equal to RCI might work because they could have a 0 exchange fee. That said, like Cliff said - people sort of understand RCI, they may need an incentive to try "the other side" if they even have Max. And the pool of potential weeks is small unless you do upgrade to Max, which seems like at best a slow process.

 

[free2travel]

Ideally they'd be less than the RCI price, but even equal to RCI might work because they could have a 0 exchange fee.

I cannot quote numbers, but it sounds like you'd like them to give HGVC resale owners better deals on DRI properties than the people who bought DRI from DRI get.
That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if DRI people figure it out. Not that people who buy from TS developers seem to have much of a clue about much but anyway.

 

[GT75]

This is what I am hearing from a lot of people. I am finding the opportunity compelling but only if they do significant upgrades. I am starting to see more and more upgrades, but I do worry about the quality.

I think that you are forgetting about the lineup of Hilton products and what they are actually trying to do. Refer to HGV chart below

HGV has no plans to make BG and HVC resorts to the same quality as HGVC resorts. The reason is that they want to sell customers in those systems to buy into the higher system.

 

[jp10558]

I cannot quote numbers, but it sounds like you'd like them to give HGVC resale owners better deals on DRI properties than the people who bought DRI from DRI get.
That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if DRI people figure it out. Not that people who buy from TS developers seem to have much of a clue about much but anyway.

I guess I just mean that I've gotten into DRI properties via RCI, so HGVC needs to beat an RCI deal to make anyone thinking about it see a value in upgrading to Max right? IDK if the reverse is true, but I know you can book HGVC via RCI. It "makes sense" for higher end resorts to "cost more" than others - we see that in legacy HGVC. Maybe DRI didn't work that way?

 

[Panina]

HGVC resale ownership is very affordable and has a nice assortment of resorts. Whereas no new ones will be added nothing much was taken away. Maybe a little bit as others will have access within a shorter interval. Instead of paying the "purchase price" to get Max one can get a inexpensive self run timeshare that is a good trader and join II to trade into an area that is not in HGVC. Even with the membership and trade fees it still is less than purchasing into Max.

 

[jp10558]

I think that you are forgetting about the lineup of Hilton products and what they are actually trying to do. Refer to HGV chart below
View attachment 93673

HGV has no plans to make BG and HVC resorts to the same quality as HGVC resorts. The reason is that they was to sell customers in those systems to buy into the higher system.

So the marketing plan is not to sell HGVC "with more locations" but to sell Bluegreen owners on DRI, and DRI owners on HGVC. IDK, that seems like a weird thing to then roll out Max for. Wouldn't the actual thing be saying to DRI "Buy an HGVC deed now to add higher end properties", or maybe "trade in DRI for HGVC"?

 

[jp10558]

HGVC resale ownership is very affordable and has a nice assortment of resorts. Whereas no new ones will be added nothing much was taken away. Maybe a little bit as others will have access within a shorter interval. Instead of paying the "purchase price" to get Max one can get a inexpensive self run timeshare that is a good trader and join II to trade into an area that is not in HGVC. Even with the membership and trade fees it still is less than purchasing into Max.

And this is in fact the resale POV - I bought Wyndham and took over an independent to get non HGVC locations. I guess if I was dead set on DRI locations you could buy DRI, but that is limited enough resale that I think most of TUG thinks that doesn't make a lot of sense. And notice in the video Cliff did say he bought some DRI to get priority which to me reads "I liked DRI enough, but 6 month window doesn't do it".

IDK if HGVC will never add new HGVC - kind of really depends on how they're implementing the supposed strategy above. They very well could decide they want a new location with something higher end. I guess it sort of depends on if they're actually worried about competing with MVC - and maybe they're not given recent history - IDK.

 

[dioxide45]

The Max DEX shown to me (this is probably not really a thing, TS salesperson) but the site showed using HGVC points to book in DEX, and at least some "screaming deals" in off season - like 3500pts weeks in 2BR. Yes, these are RCI level resorts, but RCI conversions from HGVC seem more like 7300pts for that. Even more so, I'd like to see some competitive pressure on RCI to get exchange fees down.

Was this actually HVC points to book into DEX? Currently there is no DEX for HGVC points. One can use HVC (former DRI Collection points) to book through DEX.

 

[weems637]

My first, and last, look at Max, was a total turn off with the six month window for reservation exchanges. Its a no brainer that all of the desired locations would already be booked up. Then to rename the Embarc as Hilton Vacations, and have no way to make an exchange, is a belly laugh. I've not even attempted to look at Blue Green.....

 

[dioxide45]

I think that you are forgetting about the lineup of Hilton products and what they are actually trying to do. Refer to HGV chart below
View attachment 93673

HGV has no plans to make BG and HVC resorts to the same quality as HGVC resorts. The reason is that they was to sell customers in those systems to buy into the higher system.

Is it possible though that they do renovations over time to bring them up to the HVC quality?

 

[jp10558]

Was this actually HVC points to book into DEX? Currently there is no DEX for HGVC points. One can use HVC (former DRI Collection points) to book through DEX.

Well, that could explain it. I have no idea what the DRI points are like. Maybe they're just lower point values to begin with? It was supposedly an example using Dex if I got Max with my existing 11,200 HGVC points, but like I said, it's all designed to be misleading anyway. I wasn't about to buy just had to do the presentation because of the VIP package I'd bought years ago.

 

[dioxide45]

Well, that could explain it. I have no idea what the DRI points are like. Maybe they're just lower point values to begin with? It was supposedly an example using Dex if I got Max with my existing 11,200 HGVC points, but like I said, it's all designed to be misleading anyway. I wasn't about to buy just had to do the presentation because of the VIP package I'd bought years ago.

The values are the same as they increased HGVC points a few years ago to align them with the DRI values.

 

[dayooper]

Is it possible though that they do renovations over time to bring them up to the HVC quality?

It’s always possible, but HGV Mark Wang had said in the 2023 3rd quarter earnings call (the same day as the BG purchase was announced) that they loved the fact that the BG purchase made the ownership road that much longer. Their plan is to sell the BG and keep them upgrading through, ideally Hilton Club.

 

[SmithOp]

My impression is that the upgrades to DRI and BG will be mostly cosmetic, changing signage, etc. Lipstick on a pig, not the least interested in Max.

I know nothing of BG, but I've read that DRI annual fees are higher per point than some of the HGVC properties, mostly because DRI charged higher management fees. They can adjust point values but I doubt they will lower fees, so it's no wonder DRI owners are not thrilled with Max either.

I recently stayed at Embarc Vancouver and the only HGVC logos spotted were on some hospitality awards behind the concierge desk.

 

[claraj]

When I was at Marriott StreamSide in Vail in December 2023, Bluegreen had just started accepting reservations and I met a few Bluegreen owners at the pool/hot tub (these amenities are shared between Bluegreen and Marriott.) Bluegreen was renovating one other building on the property at the time. I never got to see, but am curious how the renovations at the Bluegreen buildings turned out. Has anyone been?

 

[jp10558]

Has anyone been to a Bluegreen property? Are they actually lower level than Diamond? Cause Diamond seemed pretty middling in the one I stayed at in England. I'm trying to think what the next step down would actually be - something 2 star, like a cheaply converted motel? Bluegreen doesn't look like that from the online presence, but they know how to lie with photos.

Then again, I also sort of question the Hotel side of that graphic too - like I've not seen Embassy Suites be "more upscale" in the rooms than Hampton Inn (though I last stayed like 10 years ago), and Hampton and Hilton Garden Inn are pretty indistinguishable to me. And all that some Hiltons added to my eye was a restaurant. I haven't stayed at a Tru yet, but those are the only one in pictures that looks downmarket from the others I've listed. Those look cheap, and IDK if I'd want to stay at one.