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[2019] MVC Owner Update for Sheraton Owner

CPNY

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I've never talked about any resale program or resale rights or benefits. But as to modifying CC&Rs, that is hard to do, unless the corporation controls the requisite % of voting rights.
When you speak of “enrollment” you must be referring to resale weeks of voluntary deeds or else what are you referring to? It is stated that they can make changes pretty much at will. Nothing is set in stone. It’s highly unlikely they will but the needs of the business can change and things can be taken away, added, or completely sold off.
 

JIMinNC

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CPNY

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I studied the VSE program extensively when trying to decide whether to add VSE or HGVC to our MVC ownership. I'm no expert, but I think I have a basic understanding of the way it works. I think LeslieDet is a little confused about some of the details/inner workings of the VSE program.
I understand what Leslie is saying to some extent but there is misinformation being given. To speak of enrollment then talk about not mentioning resale weeks is confusing. What would you “enroll” and where would you enroll it lol? Maybe it’s being used in the context of VSE giving owners the equity in their ownership and is referring to the “buyback” of the deeded week to buy into a new flex plan? She could be confusing the sales tactic of dangling elite ownership in our faces as if it’s something new with flex, that sales reps do. However, It’s always been around.
 

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I studied the VSE program extensively when trying to decide whether to add VSE or HGVC to our MVC ownership. I'm no expert, but I think I have a basic understanding of the way it works. I think LeslieDet is a little confused about some of the details/inner workings of the VSE program.

Just to close this out, as I indicated multiple times, I was using the term "enrollment" in an effort to address the comment that you had relating to how legacy weeks from MVCI would have to be excluded to be "fair" in any effort by Vistana and MVCI to create a conversion rate between FlexOptions and DPs. I stated many times that it was my terminology, but I was simply using that terminology because I am very familiar with how MVCI enrolled legacy weeks and those owners then have the option to elect DPs in lieu of occupancy, and that it is something I believe that Vistana may do to encourage its existing owners to buy FlexOptions, especially if only FlexOptions will be the "currency" that can be thereafter converted into DPs so that Vistana owners can have access to MVCI properties, and MVCI owners can have access to Vistana properties, all without having to go through Interval.

It is not that I do not understand the process; but rather, it seems you do not believe that there will be an exchange rate created to allow that cross-brand usage. I was not trying to do anything else. But as this goes on and on, and different folks jump in and say various things, yes, I fell into the trap of trying to answer various questions posed by different folks, but only in one reply.

I am confident that I understand the MVCI program extremely well, and the info I have as to Vistana is admittedly limited and much more recent, and is based upon what was offered for sale to me this month, what I do own in Vistana, as well as what has been disclosed to me as an owner. At the sales pitch I attended this month, there were many questions that the Vistana reps could not answer, but there are also facts that are clear and crisp regarding what Vistana is doing now, how it is structured, what it is selling, etc. So let's just call it a day. Happy travels.
 

pchung6

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When you speak of “enrollment” you must be referring to resale weeks of voluntary deeds or else what are you referring to? It is stated that they can make changes pretty much at will. Nothing is set in stone. It’s highly unlikely they will but the needs of the business can change and things can be taken away, added, or completely sold off.

There are two ways to retro or "enroll" Vistana resale week (voluntary or mandatory).
1. Bring in at least 10k new money to purchase Flex for each resale contract, it's the latest offer I was told yesterday and sales rep said this offer ends on 8/31 (might not be true, who knows).
2. Trade in your resale week for Flex points. They will give you the full amount of credit of original purchase price and exchange the equivalent Flex points. Not sure minimum new money required or not, since I shown no interest at all and I didn't try to drag the conversation further.

You can combine 1 and 2 to retro resales week by trading in another week.
 

CPNY

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There are two ways to retro or "enroll" Vistana resale week (voluntary or mandatory).
1. Bring in at least 10k new money to purchase Flex for each resale contract, it's the latest offer I was told yesterday and sales rep said this offer ends on 8/31 (might not be true, who knows).
2. Trade in your resale week for Flex points. They will give you the full amount of credit of original purchase price and exchange the equivalent Flex points. Not sure minimum new money required or not, since I shown no interest at all and I didn't try to drag the conversation further.

You can combine 1 and 2 to retro resales week by trading in another week.
Trading in weeks isn’t really enrolling, it’s just selling your weeks back. They claim to give you thousands toward your purchase but imo what people are handing back is much more valuable than flex. Especially if the unit is a mandatory deed. Yes, you can retro your mandatory deed with 10K additional purchase and it would qualify toward elite ownership if you purchased the mandatory deed resale. But I don’t see value in that unless you were planning on buying developer price for some odd reason. I’m a believer In resale ownership. Now, if you own hundreds of thousands of options that are not in the network from resale purchases, then maybe a minimum purchase could be beneficial. Everyone’s circumstances are different.
 

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I understand what Leslie is saying to some extent but there is misinformation being given. To speak of enrollment then talk about not mentioning resale weeks is confusing. What would you “enroll” and where would you enroll it lol? Maybe it’s being used in the context of VSE giving owners the equity in their ownership and is referring to the “buyback” of the deeded week to buy into a new flex plan? She could be confusing the sales tactic of dangling elite ownership in our faces as if it’s something new with flex, that sales reps do. However, It’s always been around.

Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale. What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018. We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018. We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL. We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points. We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited. I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions. What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).

Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level). Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa. I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how. Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment". Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions). I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have. As that is a definite gap. I don't know the answer to it. But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties. And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions. I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions. But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.

Hope that helps. Sorry for any typos or formatting issues. Happy travels.
 

JIMinNC

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Just to close this out, as I indicated multiple times, I was using the term "enrollment" in an effort to address the comment that you had relating to how legacy weeks from MVCI would have to be excluded to be "fair" in any effort by Vistana and MVCI to create a conversion rate between FlexOptions and DPs. I stated many times that it was my terminology, but I was simply using that terminology because I am very familiar with how MVCI enrolled legacy weeks and those owners then have the option to elect DPs in lieu of occupancy, and that it is something I believe that Vistana may do to encourage its existing owners to buy FlexOptions, especially if only FlexOptions will be the "currency" that can be thereafter converted into DPs so that Vistana owners can have access to MVCI properties, and MVCI owners can have access to Vistana properties, all without having to go through Interval.

Just to close the loop on a few things...if what you are trying to say is that they might require current Vistana weeks/StarOptions owners to buy/add a Flex package as a way to gain the ability to use their existing StarOptions (as well as the Flex points they add) to book in some notional cross-brands exchange, then they could certainly do that as a price of entry. Given the price of those Flex packages, if that is the road they choose to travel, most of us believe that participation in such a cross-brand program will be very low. If on the other hand, they take the approach they took in 2010 when the DC was created, and allow a reasonable fee-based way to play in a cross-brand exchange, we have speculated participation could be much greater. Either way, I think we would agree there will be a price of entry, the only question is what form it might take.

It is not that I do not understand the process; but rather, it seems you do not believe that there will be an exchange rate created to allow that cross-brand usage.

No, I actually said just the opposite. Most likely they will need to create a conversion rate for Flex to DPs and vice versa. There was even a TUG thread recently that discussed what that conversion ratio might be (I can't find that thread). For programs like Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex that are just points, they will likely have no choice but to set an exchange ratio, since all they have to work with is points. For legacy deeded weeks they could use the same exchange ratio to allow deeded weeks with StarOptions to participate (since Flex HomeOptions and StarOptions are based on the same points levels), or they could assign each week a point allocation like they did for MVC DPs almost 10 years ago. There are pros and cons to each approach that they will have to sort out.

My point of contention from the beginning was simply that it would seem unbalanced to allow a way for MVC enrolled weeks to access whatever Vistana inventory became part of any cross-brand program without also allowing Vistana Flex and StarOptions owners the same basic opportunity. They don't want to disadvantage either program.

I am confident that I understand the MVCI program extremely well, and the info I have as to Vistana is admittedly limited and much more recent, and is based upon what was offered for sale to me this month, what I do own in Vistana, as well as what has been disclosed to me as an owner. At the sales pitch I attended this month, there were many questions that the Vistana reps could not answer, but there are also facts that are clear and crisp regarding what Vistana is doing now, how it is structured, what it is selling, etc. So let's just call it a day. Happy travels.

Most likely, since you don't know Vistana as well as you know MVC, the sales spin, half-truths, etc. that the sales reps used to try to convince you to buy into the Flex program has just muddied the waters for you and caused some confusion. You would be far from the first person to have that happen. That's one of their most powerful sales techniques, to baffle you with their BS. I really don't think the sales reps know very much about what might be coming and are unfortunately using the lack of clarity to muddy the waters to try to get people to buy what they are selling. They do a great job of talking like they do know, but my suspicion is what eventually comes may be quite different than what the sales folks are spinning today.
 
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CPNY

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Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale. What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018. We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018. We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL. We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points. We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited. I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions. What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).

Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level). Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa. I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how. Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment". Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions). I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have. As that is a definite gap. I don't know the answer to it. But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties. And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions. I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions. But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.

Hope that helps. Sorry for any typos or formatting issues. Happy travels.
So by saying “enrollment” you confuse people with the real term “retro” which is the terminology used by Vistana, applies to resale weeks, hence the confusion. Enrollment is usually referred to MVC legacy and resale weeks purchased before June 2010 I believe for enrollment into the dc program. So really by you saying enrollment, you meant it as a vague term based on your “old” ownership to be “enrolled” in a joint program because a sales rep said it would also count? A joint program that doesn’t exist.

As you know, your old ownership cannot be incorporated into the new flex VOI but a new flex VOI can retro your “old” ownership IF it is currently not a member of the VSN or have the ability to convert to bonvoy points (mandatory deeds). Again, “retro” or “enrolled” would apply to resale weeks. But now I understand that you’re saying enrolled as it would pertain to a new joint program with some new exchange currency being dreamed up in sales rooms across the resorts. I will say this. Most reps are probably on here reading these threads because it’s been speculated they could make a Third point program among so many other theories. This is where they get those sales pitches.

Speaking of theories, You speak of flipping between DP and Star options and some currency exchange based on a joint program a sales rep told you they were working on yet you failed to inquire how your old ownership would fit in?? I would think that would be a burning question.
 

pchung6

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Since I don't believe I've ever replied to you in this thread, I just wanted to hopefully clarify for you that my usage of the term "enrollment" was never intended to address nor did it address resale. What I was talking about and questioning is how is Vistana going to satisy/placate/engage the old (pre-spin off of Vistana by Starwood, and pre-acquisition of that spun off Vistana by ILG, which was then immediately merged into a new Vistana, as owned by ILG) owners (who purchased timeshare interests that are represented by deeds recorded in the location of the timeshare) given the acquisition of ILG by Marriott in 2018. We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018. We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL. We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points. We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited. I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions. What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).

Sales manager was encouraging me to purchase as many FlexOptions as possible (the 3, 4, 5 star level). Sales manager was offering me "phantom" FlexOptions based upon up to 3 of my MVCI properties, so that I would get to a higher owner level, and dangled the "benefit" that both MVCI and Vistana were working on developing an exchange rate so that the "currency" of FlexOptions could be used to book MVCI properties, and vice versa. I was also told that my old Vistana ownership could be counted as well, but I neglected to get all of the details on how. Thus, for purposes of this forum and discussion, I was using the term "enrollment". Because I was under the impression that if I bought into the FlexOptions program, if I gained a certain owner star status, then all of my ownership (whether MVCI or Vistana) was going to benefit me so that I could basically flip between MVCI currency (ie DPs) and Vistana currency (ie FlexOptions). I did not drill down on those details, as I admitted many posts ago, and i should have. As that is a definite gap. I don't know the answer to it. But at no point was I ever referring to resale properties. And I was also not referring to redeeming my existing Nanea deed for use as a downpayment on FlexOptions. I told the Vistana sales folks that I have enough DPs to do what I want, and I don't intend to purchase any FlexOptions. But I really sincerely do want to understand the programs, since I have a vested interest in both.

Hope that helps. Sorry for any typos or formatting issues. Happy travels.

Here is my suggestions to you, of course you have to make your own judgment on it.
1. Whatever you were told by Vistana or Marriott sales managers about the combined program. please forget about everything they said or promised or guaranteed. There is no official announcement yet, all you heard is rumor or BS.
2. Keep your Nanea deed. This is a beautiful resort. You must’ve purchased from Vistana for a lot money, you will have the exactly same benefits as Flex owners. You don’t need Flex right now.
3. You are correct about Westin Flex, which was the Flex they pitched to you, will allow you to book all 23 resorts at 8 months and 8 Westin resorts at 12 months with very limited inventory for Nanea, WKORV/N. Your Nanea can also book all 23 resorts at 8 months and guarantee Nanea inventory at 12 months. I personally like your Nanea over Westin Flex.
4. If you are thinking to buy Flex for the upcoming combined program with MVC, please hold it off. Nothing is announced yet, you want to wait until you know what you are buying first, right?
 

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So by saying “enrollment” you confuse people with the real term “retro” which is the terminology used by Vistana, applies to resale weeks, hence the confusion. Enrollment is usually referred to MVC legacy and resale weeks purchased before June 2010 I believe for enrollment into the dc program. So really by you saying enrollment, you meant it as a vague term based on your “old” ownership to be “enrolled” in a joint program because a sales rep said it would also count? A joint program that doesn’t exist.

As you know, your old ownership cannot be incorporated into the new flex VOI but a new flex VOI can retro your “old” ownership IF it is currently not a member of the VSN or have the ability to convert to bonvoy points (mandatory deeds). Again, “retro” or “enrolled” would apply to resale weeks. But now I understand that you’re saying enrolled as it would pertain to a new joint program with some new exchange currency being dreamed up in sales rooms across the resorts. I will say this. Most reps are probably on here reading these threads because it’s been speculated they could make a Third point program among so many other theories. This is where they get those sales pitches.

Speaking of theories, You speak of flipping between DP and Star options and some currency exchange based on a joint program a sales rep told you they were working on yet you failed to inquire how your old ownership would fit in?? I would think that would be a burning question.

I hate to go back and forth, but for some reason my communication skills seem to be lacking here -- I've never heard the term "retro" relating to Vistana. Never. I ONLY used that term "enrollment" when one of the posters said that it would not be fair to include MVCI enrolled ownership and exclude Vistana old ownership. So the terminology was simply to equate similar type ownerships. I started commenting because of the folks who say they just can't wait until the "merger" is complete and then they can use their Vistana ownership to gain status at MVCI. The OP said that he was going to get 25k-35k in DPs just based upon his Vistana ownership. I called BS. There is no way that old Vistana week ownership is going to be able to receive DPs without doing anything else. Thus, if there is going to be a way to count it, there has to be some concept of "enrollment". I don't have any other term to use in that circumstance. I'm not being naive, I'm not trying to be vague. I'm trying to compare apples to apples because of the misinformation that folks were spouting off. That is all.

Here is what I know in a vacuum: My old ownership is not part of the Flex Program UNLESS I MAKE AN AFFIRMATIVE MOVE AND BUY FLEX OPTIONS/POINTS.

I do believe that MVCI and Vistana are trying to develop an exchange rate between DPs and FlexOptions. (I have never said that there was some futuristic "joint program" as you have coined it.) Otherwise, how in the heck are they going to pitch the bonus of being able to book in the locations where their own resorts are limited? it is not some currency being "dreamed up" in a sales room. It is a logical approach between sister corporations to identify how their owners can cross over without needing to utilize the Interval trading platform. It is NOT a currency. It is an exchange rate. Something like (my hypothetical) 1 DP = 50 Flex Options. Something like that. It is NOT a currency, it is an exchange rate between "currencies" because if you've been paying attention for the past 9 years, DPs are basically equivalent to "money" in the MVCI world. The "exchange" rate is akin to what happens when you convert dollars to euros. There is a formula that has a rate. When you use dollars to get euros, you are not getting a third currency. But you just don't walk up to a window and give them a dollar bill and expect that it magically turns into one euro. You must know the exchange rate to apply to the currency so that it can be valued appropriately.

I have no clue where you come up with an idea for a "third" point program. I never said that. I've never heard anyone say that. I have no clue why you would even attribute that to me. And, just so you understand, it is NOT a burning question to me as to how my old Vistana ownership fits into the program being pitched by Vistana. I own a lot of MVCI. The pitch of gee, buy this and then you'll also have access to be able to get into the MVCI locations means absolutely zero to me. I own 4 weeks plus DPs. I can travel as much as I want and spend a month abroad each year. I'm good. So, why would you think it would be "burning" question. I don't care about cross-selling. I like my Nanea ownership and will continue to use it. I didn't have any interest in learning just how many FlexOptions I can have and star level of ownership I would qualify for by Vistana giving me phantom FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownershihp. I don't care about booking the various Westin locations, other than where I own. I can go to Cabo whenever I want. I don't need to stay at the Westin. It's not even a good location there. I am not interested in any of their 23 resort locations, so why would I waste yet more time to let them go on ad naseum about all of the benefits that my ownership will bring to me as a FlexOptions owner? I am not ignorant nor naive and did not fall for the "you'll never be able to get back into Nanea unless you own FlexOptions" pitch nor did I fall for the "you must have FlexOptions because then you can book any of the 8 home resorts in months 9-12 exclusively." That doesn't interest me.

Hopefully that answers your apparent "burning questions". I really went to the Vistana pitch because I wanted to learn about how they were approaching the MVCI sister corporation relationship because that helps me understand what is happening on the MVCI side (when I can hear both sides and then flush out what is consistent and what is not) and they were offering a heck of a lot of BonVoy points for 2 hrs of my time on a Saturday.
 

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Here is my suggestions to you, of course you have to make your own judgment on it.
1. Whatever you were told by Vistana or Marriott sales managers about the combined program. please forget about everything they said or promised or guaranteed. There is no official announcement yet, all you heard is rumor or BS.
2. Keep your Nanea deed. This is a beautiful resort. You must’ve purchased from Vistana for a lot money, you will have the exactly same benefits as Flex owners. You don’t need Flex right now.
3. You are correct about Westin Flex, which was the Flex they pitched to you, will allow you to book all 23 resorts at 8 months and 8 Westin resorts at 12 months with very limited inventory for Nanea, WKORV/N. Your Nanea can also book all 23 resorts at 8 months and guarantee Nanea inventory at 12 months. I personally like your Nanea over Westin Flex.
4. If you are thinking to buy Flex for the upcoming combined program with MVC, please hold it off. Nothing is announced yet, you want to wait until you know what you are buying first, right?

I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea.. I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months. I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options. I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do. I understand the MVCI program extremely well. The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed. I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with. THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM. There is not going to be a combined program. That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment. Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program. It is not going to happen. The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties. But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used. That is a logical approach. I am being logical. That is all. It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts. There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana. Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.
 

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The Vistana owners will have to clarify this, but based on my understanding, this is NOT correct. I don't think there is an "enrollment" concept in the Vistana program. My understanding is the only thing along those lines that they offer is the "re-qualification" process for Voluntary resale weeks (which don't even have StarOptions), to allow those to have StarOptions. Doing that re-qualification requires a Flex purchase, but someone with a Mandatory week would not have to do that. Also, if someone who owned a Voluntary or Mandatory deed with StarOptions wanted the ability to use the StarOptions value of their week to book one of the Flex resorts from 12-8 months, they could surrender their deed as part of buying into their chosen Flex program and then have full rights for all of their resulting HomeOptions in that Flex program, but they would no longer own their deeded week. @pchung6, @CPNY, and @controller1, can one of you chime in and clarify this point? Is what @LeslieDet is saying correct? Does a VSE owner who has "old" StarOptions have to "enroll" them in some way to be able to combine them with the so called "FlexOptions" for a booking? (And I know FlexOptions isn't an official name, but I think LeslieDet is using that label to refer to the HomeOptions that come with Flex ownership).

That is correct and I'm impressed with someone not owning Vistana having that good of a grasp on the Vistana program!



At 8 months all star options are available for all bookings. If you have flex options and a mandatory week with options, at 8 months they are combined. 12-8 you can only use the options within the realm you own in. Deeded week at home resort or flex options at flex resorts.

Agree 100%



We know that the Vistana under the ILG umbrella started selling FlexOptions in January 2018. We know that they want their owners to buy these points reflected by a deed recorded in FL. We know that they are incentivising those old owners to purchase FlexOptions by offering them full credit of their original purchase price if they will agree to buy the points. We know that the goal is to get as much of the old inventory moved into the FlexOptions program, since the inventory that went into it was pretty darn limited. I know from attending the presentation this month that I could buy FlexOptions directly, I could use my existing ownership to purchase FlexOptions, and what I was told, but did not explore, is that I could still keep my ownership and buy FlexOptions. What I did not ask for detail about at the time, is if I do that, how is Vistana going to incorporate my old ownership into the new program (I keep my Nanea deed).

@LeslieDet I will say that your use of new terms/names for descriptions of Vistana programs has unnecessarily caused confusion.

I have previously owned Sheraton Flex. In addition to deeded weeks at WKORVN, I currently own both Westin Flex and Nanea through its original Home Options program. Therefore, I believe I have a well-grounded understanding of the various Vistana flex programs. And one thing I know is that Vistana does not refer to anything as a FlexOption. There are Home Options and there are StarOptions, but no FlexOption.

In a previous reply to me you stated "If I've referred to it as Vistana FlexOptions, then I apologize" yet you continue to refer to Vistana FlexOptions when you are discussing the Westin Flex program. To avoid confusion, why not refer to it by its name known to all Vistana owners?

Vistana did not start selling FlexOptions in January 2018. They did start selling the Westin Flex program at that time. The Sheraton Flex program preceded the Westin Flex program. Both operate identically.

Yes, the goal is to get as much of the deeded weeks into one of the flex programs. Otherwise, the owners of the flex products will have a difficult time achieving a reservation due to the limited availability in the flex pool. Currently it's not too bad at WKORV or WKORVN but it is a problem currently at Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas.

For reservations at month 8 minus 1 day, one's Home Options within the various Vistana flex programs operate as StarOptions at a 1:1 rate which provides the ability to access all the Vistana properties' available inventory. And as @JIMinNC and @CPNY have stated, one is unable to mix the Home Options through the various Vistana flex programs with StarOptions through deeded weeks to make any reservation as each reservation during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12-8 months) is limited to each individual ownership pool/bucket.
 
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LeslieDet

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That is correct and I'm impressed with someone not owning Vistana having that good of a grasp on the Vistana program!





Agree 100%





@LeslieDet I will say that your use of new terms/names for descriptions of Vistana programs has unnecessarily caused confusion.

I have previously owned Sheraton Flex. In addition to deeded weeks at WKORVN, I currently own both Westin Flex and Nanea through its original Home Options program. Therefore, I believe I have a well-grounded understanding of the various Vistana flex programs. And one thing I know is that Vistana does not refer to anything as a FlexOption. There are Home Options and there are StarOptions, but no FlexOption.

In a previous reply to me you stated "If I've referred to it as Vistana FlexOptions, then I apologize" yet you continue to refer to Vistana FlexOptions when you are discussing the Westin Flex program. To avoid confusion, why not refer to it by its name known to all Vistana owners?

Vistana did not start selling FlexOptions in January 2018. They did start selling the Westin Flex program at that time. The Sheraton Flex program preceded the Westin Flex program. Both operate identically.

Yes, the goal is to get as much of the deeded weeks into one of the flex programs. Otherwise, the owners of the flex products will have a difficult time achieving a reservation due to the limited availability in the flex pool. Currently it's not too bad at WKORV or WKORVN but it is a problem currently at Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas.

For reservations at month 8 minus 1 day, one's Home Options within the various Vistana flex programs operate as StarOptions at a 1:1 conversion rate which provides the ability to access all the Vistana properties' available inventory. And as @JIMinNC and @CPNY have stated, one is unable to mix the Home Options through the various Vistana flex programs with StarOptions through deeded weeks to make any reservation as each reservation during the Home Resort Reservation Period (12-8 months) is limited to each individual ownership pool/bucket.

Just so you know, I pulled my notes and the sales reps and sales manager and the paperwork all talked about the Vistana FlexOptions program and then there was a list of the "Westin Flex Home Resorts". I'm honestly not trying to confuse you guys, I was simply trying to tell the OP that its BS if he thinks he's going to get credit in the DP program for old Vistana ownership.

Personally, I think the terminology is too confusing, but I believe they do that on purpose. Why jump between Vistana FlexOptions and Westin Flex Home Resorts"? I have no clue why they were doing that. I do not know why you are quibbling about the January 4, 2018 date? Of course Vistana started selling the FlexOptions then; Vistana is the corporate entity. Westin is a brand name. The term "Westin Flex" is a trademarked term owned by Vistana. I'm not the one who put together the sales pitch that said the FlexOptions were being sold as of 1/4/18. I really don't understand why you are splitting hairs on that. If you are at all familiar with the MVCI DP program, it is known by multiple names, including "destination points" as well as "vacation club points". And there are probably a few more names people call it. Sorry you were so confused.
 

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I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea.. I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months. I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options. I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do. I understand the MVCI program extremely well. The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed. I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with. THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM. There is not going to be a combined program. That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment. Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program. It is not going to happen. The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties. But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used. That is a logical approach. I am being logical. That is all. It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts. There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana. Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.
Just FYI, there is no Flex Options. You probably messed up with Home Options.
 

JIMinNC

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I've NEVER been interested in FLEX. I have no intent to get rid of what I own at Nanea.. I am aware that my Nanea ownership can book Nanea at 9-12 months and everything else at 8 months. I also like my Nanea over the Westin Flex Options. I do not believe that there will EVER be a combined MVCI/Vistana program like so many others do. I understand the MVCI program extremely well. The only reason I even jumped on here was to comment that the OP who said he was going to be receiving 25k-35k DPs for his old Vistana weeks was misinformed. I do not believe that absent his buying FlexOptions and then somehow being able to (for lack of a better term) "enroll" his old Vistana weeks, that he is ever going to see any ability to use his Vistana ownership to get into MVCI (excluding Interval). I've attended 3 MVCI updates this year and I know more about the program than any sales rep I was paired with. THERE IS NO COMBINED PROGRAM. There is not going to be a combined program. That is what I have been trying to tell you guys from my very first comment. Don't assume that just because you own old Vistana weeks that you'll be able to get into the DP program. It is not going to happen. The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever is that there will be an exchange rate between FlexOptions and DPs, that will allow owners from both sides access to the other properties. But it isn't a new program, it is not a new point program, it is not anything other that a conversion rate so that the two different currencies (ie DPs and FlexOptions) can be valued and then somehow used. That is a logical approach. I am being logical. That is all. It is extremely far fetched to think that Vistana owners are going to magically be able to use their ownership at MVCI resorts. There has never been a merger of MVCI and Vistana. Rather, MVW acquired ILG, which included Vistana (not the Vistana spinoff formed prior to the Marriott/Starwood acquisition), but the Vistana that is a result of the merger between that Vistana spin off by Starwood and ILG.

A few points to make about this:

1) I agree 100% that what the OP was told (10 pages of posts ago) was probably BS (Bountiful Speculation) by his sales rep. There may be bits and pieces of what that rep said that eventually prove to be true, but the implication that the proposed purchase would automatically qualify the OP's Vistana weeks was likely BS. The total amount of DPs he would get in such a hypothetical scenario - 25K to 35K - was probably not far off, but I think it was a sales rep speculating about what might happen to try to make the sale.

2) I suspect much of anything you were told in your Vistana presentation about what might be coming probably falls into the same category as #1.

3) When you say "There is not going to be a combined program" and "it is not anything other that a conversion rate", I think that also qualifies as speculation. We don't know. Only senior management at MVW really knows at this point.

4) Item #3 may also be an issue of semantics and what constitutes a "combined program". As I've said repeatedly, no one has seriously suggested that the identities of the Vistana program and the MVC program are going to merge into a single program. I think we all agree there are significant legal and procedural hurdles to that. But based on what MVW executive management has said to the investment community, it sure sounds like they are talking about more than just a conversion rate. I suggest you check out this recent thread concerning the second quarter MVW earnings call: https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...gs-conference-call-integration-update.293553/ In particular, note this quote from the CEO:

"We also continued our work on enhancing our product offerings across our multiple Marriott brands. As we shared with you previously, we continue to evaluate the various options, and our current plan is to add new enhancements in stages, each building on the strong foundation that we offer customers today. Over time, our goal is to develop an integrated product that leverages all of our Marriott family of brands, providing owners and potential owners an even greater array of vacation destinations and experiences from which to choose. We remain extremely optimistic about its potential, and we’ll have more to say about this in our Investor Day on October 4.”

While his use of the phrase "integrated product" is vague, the ultimate goal sure sounds like something more than just an exchange rate.

5) It is also important to note that while the MVCI and Vistana programs remain separate from a customer perspective, the oversight and management from MVW has been truly merged under the same executive organization. As the CEO said in the earnings call, they are beginning to bring the best MVC sales and marketing processes to the Vistana sales offices. Both the Vistana sales offices and the MVC sales offices now both report to Brian Miller, the EVP of Marketing, Sales, and Service; they have a single Development and Product Officer, a single Resort management/experience officer, etc. While I'm sure there is some middle-management separation between VSE and MVC as you go further down the organization chart, much of the executive management from ILG has left the company and the senior executives who were previously managing MVCI are now overseeing both MVCI and Vistana programs, as well as the other business lines acquired from ILG. Of the executive team only the executive who leads the Exchange and Third Party Management business is a top-level holdover from ILG. I think you may be underestimating the degree to which MVW has already merged functions now that the acquisition is almost a year old. While everything remains separate from a customer-facing perspective, ILG no longer exists as an entity under the MVW umbrella, as the pieces of ILG have now been re-integrated into the overall MVW management structure. The Vistana, Hyatt, MVC, Ritz, II, VRI, Aqua-Aston, and Trading Places programs, while likely individually-managed at the middle-management level, are all now operating within the same general management structure that once managed MVC and Ritz alone.
 
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I hate to go back and forth, but for some reason my communication skills seem to be lacking here -- I've never heard the term "retro" relating to Vistana. Never. I ONLY used that term "enrollment" when one of the posters said that it would not be fair to include MVCI enrolled ownership and exclude Vistana old ownership. So the terminology was simply to equate similar type ownerships. I started commenting because of the folks who say they just can't wait until the "merger" is complete and then they can use their Vistana ownership to gain status at MVCI. The OP said that he was going to get 25k-35k in DPs just based upon his Vistana ownership. I called BS. There is no way that old Vistana week ownership is going to be able to receive DPs without doing anything else. Thus, if there is going to be a way to count it, there has to be some concept of "enrollment". I don't have any other term to use in that circumstance. I'm not being naive, I'm not trying to be vague. I'm trying to compare apples to apples because of the misinformation that folks were spouting off. That is all.

Here is what I know in a vacuum: My old ownership is not part of the Flex Program UNLESS I MAKE AN AFFIRMATIVE MOVE AND BUY FLEX OPTIONS/POINTS.

I do believe that MVCI and Vistana are trying to develop an exchange rate between DPs and FlexOptions. (I have never said that there was some futuristic "joint program" as you have coined it.) Otherwise, how in the heck are they going to pitch the bonus of being able to book in the locations where their own resorts are limited? it is not some currency being "dreamed up" in a sales room. It is a logical approach between sister corporations to identify how their owners can cross over without needing to utilize the Interval trading platform. It is NOT a currency. It is an exchange rate. Something like (my hypothetical) 1 DP = 50 Flex Options. Something like that. It is NOT a currency, it is an exchange rate between "currencies" because if you've been paying attention for the past 9 years, DPs are basically equivalent to "money" in the MVCI world. The "exchange" rate is akin to what happens when you convert dollars to euros. There is a formula that has a rate. When you use dollars to get euros, you are not getting a third currency. But you just don't walk up to a window and give them a dollar bill and expect that it magically turns into one euro. You must know the exchange rate to apply to the currency so that it can be valued appropriately.

I have no clue where you come up with an idea for a "third" point program. I never said that. I've never heard anyone say that. I have no clue why you would even attribute that to me. And, just so you understand, it is NOT a burning question to me as to how my old Vistana ownership fits into the program being pitched by Vistana. I own a lot of MVCI. The pitch of gee, buy this and then you'll also have access to be able to get into the MVCI locations means absolutely zero to me. I own 4 weeks plus DPs. I can travel as much as I want and spend a month abroad each year. I'm good. So, why would you think it would be "burning" question. I don't care about cross-selling. I like my Nanea ownership and will continue to use it. I didn't have any interest in learning just how many FlexOptions I can have and star level of ownership I would qualify for by Vistana giving me phantom FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownershihp. I don't care about booking the various Westin locations, other than where I own. I can go to Cabo whenever I want. I don't need to stay at the Westin. It's not even a good location there. I am not interested in any of their 23 resort locations, so why would I waste yet more time to let them go on ad naseum about all of the benefits that my ownership will bring to me as a FlexOptions owner? I am not ignorant nor naive and did not fall for the "you'll never be able to get back into Nanea unless you own FlexOptions" pitch nor did I fall for the "you must have FlexOptions because then you can book any of the 8 home resorts in months 9-12 exclusively." That doesn't interest me.

Hopefully that answers your apparent "burning questions". I really went to the Vistana pitch because I wanted to learn about how they were approaching the MVCI sister corporation relationship because that helps me understand what is happening on the MVCI side (when I can hear both sides and then flush out what is consistent and what is not) and they were offering a heck of a lot of BonVoy points for 2 hrs of my time on a Saturday.
Everything you’re saying is all speculation and contradictions. You can’t sit here and “call BS” as you said, on what the OP speculated that his VSE ownership will get him a certain amount of DC points “without doing anything else” with zero facts of your own. THEN go into your own speculation that you have to enroll your “old Vistana ownership” into something when there is absolutely nothing available to enroll it into.

Yes retro is a term used by VSE sales, I’ve heard it plenty of times. Being that I own resale and developer weeks they’ve always tried to get me to buy more to “retro” my resale weeks back into their system to count toward elite status.

I do have some questions. I’m not sure what flexoptions are. How do they differ from home options and star options? How much will I have to pay to enroll my Vistana weeks into the DC and how many DC Points will my ownership in VSE be worth? Will mandatory resale weeks be automatically included or excluded for enrollment? If you can’t answer, then you “calling BS” is just even more speculation.

I feel like you’re coming at people with speculation you believe to be facts. Then mixing terminology which is adding to confusion. It’s too early to go back but I believe you said they wanted you to buy more phantom flex options to reach a star level which is only available to flex VOI owners (which is false), then add in terms like “enrollment” which sounds a lot like retro a resale week to be brought back into the Vistana Signature Network. No wonder why there is confusion.
 

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I'd like to thank all of the Vistana-savvy people here who are giving me a crash course in those products, and in particular, JIMinNC for his ongoing explanations of how the corporate sides of things have been working since the MVW acquisition. Aside from that, at this point I sincerely hope that IF there is eventually an internal exchange option offered by MVW to owners of every product/brand that now comes under the MVW umbrella (and you all know how relatively easily I think that could happen,) PLEASE all that is holy that it doesn't introduce even more products and terminology into our vocabularies! Eeeeeesh!
 

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SueDonJ

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Couldn't Canadians enroll their pre-2010 weeks in DC?

I think Barry's point has more to do with where the Marriott resorts are located, as opposed to owner residency. I know when I'm trying to explain the basics of the Destination Club I use the 6/20/10 DC inception date as THE date of eligibility for all existing/sold Weeks, but actually that date applied only to Weeks at the US and Caribbean resorts. Euro resorts weren't integrated until 2012, and the Asia-Pacific segments sometime later than that. I'm sorry, Barry, again.
 

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As I've said from my first reply on this thread, I was trying to respond to the comment about waiting for the MVCI and Westin programs to be "merged." I never wanted to go off on these discussions about all of the changes in Vistana and how things work there; I've admitted that my knowledge base is really focused on MVCI ownership. So, I'm going to jump off this feed, but just know that the only thing Vistana is selling now is a points based ownership (reflected by a deed recorded in FL). There are no more sales that are reflected by deeds recorded at the various locations (Hawaii, AZ, FL, CO). I never paid attention as to how ownership was taken for the Mexican locations, so I am not going to speculate now. The points based program has options that are used to book stays at the identified resorts. Those same points aka options are also eligible for BonVoy points, and can be banked and borrowed. The owner levels have been created to offer benefits and encourage owners to purchase more points aka options. The more points aka options you have, the better the benefits. Just like with MVCI. They cannot do away with the old system, because there are deeds recorded. So, these programs are running on separate paths. I do not believe that there is ever going to be a "merger" of the MVCI DP program and any of the other timeshare programs that were under the ILG umbrella.

Happy travels.
I started this thread to inform others of my experience while attending a MVC presentation. I never stated that the program was being merged. And even the sales rep, who I don't believe, was just letting me know of the hypothetical benefits that may be available as a Vistana owner. As I stated before everyone is entitled to their opinion but for anyone to say what Marriott will or will not do in an environment where people come for advice and information is not very helpful. This is the reason why we should "wait" for the official announcement.
 

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I started this thread to inform others of my experience while attending a MVC presentation. I never stated that the program was being merged. And even the sales rep, who I don't believe, was just letting me know of the hypothetical benefits that may be available as a Vistana owner. As I stated before everyone is entitled to their opinion but for anyone to say what Marriott will or will not do in an environment where people come for advice and information is not very helpful. This is the reason why we should "wait" for the official announcement.

I get that official announcements are the only thing we can trust to be true. But over the years we've had some fascinating "speculation" discussions in advance of new developments, at least on the Marriott board, and I'm one of many who enjoy those discussions very much. As long as everybody understands that none of us can claim with any certainty what WILL be, and we stick to what MAY be - based on what we do know - what's the harm?
 

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I think Barry's point has more to do with where the Marriott resorts are located, as opposed to owner residency. I know when I'm trying to explain the basics of the Destination Club I use the 6/20/10 DC inception date as THE date of eligibility for all existing/sold Weeks, but actually that date applied only to Weeks at the US and Caribbean resorts. Euro resorts weren't integrated until 2012, and the Asia-Pacific segments sometime later than that. I'm sorry, Barry, again.
You are quite right, the later cutoff date for enrolment of European MVC resorts was June 2012 and for the one Asia resort sold as weeks (PBC) it was August 2016.
I was referring to residency though for the restriction on free enrolment of eligible weeks by attending the webinar.
I can’t immediately find the website link which detailed this, but turkel posted this in April 2018

Learn Why Complimentary Enrollment is a Can't Miss Opportunity
United States residents are invited to join us to learn about the amazing benefits to be had as a member of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations® Exchange Program. Attend a 45-minute webinar presentation from the convenience of your home. If you choose to enroll your eligible week(s) into the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, you will receive complimentary enrollment of your eligible weeks at the completion of the webinar.

A variety of learning options are available. Live webinars provide attendees the opportunity to ask questions to the presenter and hear questions from other Owners. However, if these don't fit into your schedule, a pre-recorded option is available on demand. If you are a resident of the United States and would like to proceed, just click on one of the offered dates and times listed to register:

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Live Webinar
Friday April 6, 2018
1 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time

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Live Webinar
Tuesday, April 17, 2018
5 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time

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Pre-Recorded Webinar
On Demand


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Don't miss this opportunity to learn why so many Marriott Vacation Club® Owners have already enrolled in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, expanding their vacation experiences to include cruises and tours, golf packages, vacation homes and adventure travel.

*This offer is only valid for residents of the United States of America
 

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Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
You are quite right, the later cutoff date for enrolment of European MVC resorts was June 2012 and for the one Asia resort sold as weeks (PBC) it was August 2016.
I was referring to residency though for the restriction on free enrolment of eligible weeks by attending the webinar.
I can’t immediately find the website link which detailed this, but turkel posted this in April 2018

Learn Why Complimentary Enrollment is a Can't Miss Opportunity
United States residents are invited to join us to learn about the amazing benefits to be had as a member of the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations® Exchange Program. Attend a 45-minute webinar presentation from the convenience of your home. If you choose to enroll your eligible week(s) into the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, you will receive complimentary enrollment of your eligible weeks at the completion of the webinar.

A variety of learning options are available. Live webinars provide attendees the opportunity to ask questions to the presenter and hear questions from other Owners. However, if these don't fit into your schedule, a pre-recorded option is available on demand. If you are a resident of the United States and would like to proceed, just click on one of the offered dates and times listed to register:

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Live Webinar
Friday April 6, 2018
1 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time

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Live Webinar
Tuesday, April 17, 2018
5 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time

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Pre-Recorded Webinar
On Demand


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Don't miss this opportunity to learn why so many Marriott Vacation Club® Owners have already enrolled in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, expanding their vacation experiences to include cruises and tours, golf packages, vacation homes and adventure travel.

*This offer is only valid for residents of the United States of America

Ah, thanks for that, Barry.
 
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