[MOVED] Wyndham Commercial Letter

[mboeding621]

I've received a certified letter and an email from Wyndham threatening about commercial use. I've seen several other posts about this. Before I call Wyndham to complain/plead my case, I wonder if anyone has had success in contacting them. I am a new Presidential owner and never would have upgraded without the ability to rent points. I wonder if anyone has had rentals cancelled, as they have threatened? Thanks!

 

[Rolltydr]

I've received a certified letter and an email from Wyndham threatening about commercial use. I've seen several other posts about this. Before I call Wyndham to complain/plead my case, I wonder if anyone has had success in contacting them. I am a new Presidential owner and never would have upgraded without the ability to rent points. I wonder if anyone has had rentals cancelled, as they have threatened? Thanks!

You can rent your points, but only through Extra Holidays. So, if you don’t want to share with Wyndham, you’re out of luck. It’s in the contract.

 

[tschwa2]

You can rent your points, but only through Extra Holidays. So, if you don’t want to share with Wyndham, you’re out of luck. It’s in the contract.

Your contract states that you can only rent through Extra Holidays? Mine mentions commercial activity but It doesn't go into any explanation about how renting it on my own is considered commercial activity but renting through Extra Holidays is not or any kind of notice specifically excluding Extra Holidays from commercial activity. Yes I know that is what wyndham is implying but that isn't in the contract as far as I can see.

 

[geist1223]

Extra Holidays is a very bad deal for the Owner.

 

[ski_sierra]

Extra Holidays is a very bad deal for the Owner.

99% of the time anything involving Wyndham is a bad deal.

 

[Rolltydr]

Wyndham provides the Extra Holidays platform for those owners who want to rent their points. Any other commercial activity is prohibited. That is what I meant. Sorry if it wasn’t clear.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I've received a certified letter and an email from Wyndham threatening about commercial use. I've seen several other posts about this. Before I call Wyndham to complain/plead my case, I wonder if anyone has had success in contacting them. I am a new Presidential owner and never would have upgraded without the ability to rent points. I wonder if anyone has had rentals cancelled, as they have threatened? Thanks!

Yes, several TUGGERs have had GCs forcibly cancelled due to non-compliance with the cease and desist letters over the past year - especially those considered "megarenters" so to speak that were running commercial rental businesses. That said, those impacted may or may not post in response here on a public forum as doing so is essentially admitting to something publicly - so you are better off asking for people to DM you on this topic as opposed to posting publicly on a forum post.

EH isn't as bad as it was in the past, here's a post that @Jan M. shared in another rental related thread on the EH topic:

In the past I've said repeatedly that the glut of owners renting at bargain basement prices compared to what Extra Holidays charges would be an issue for Wyndham. That they've invested too much time and money into developing, advertising and operating Extra Holidays to not eventually have to do something about it. One doesn't have to be a business whiz to understand that.

I haven't been a fan of Extra Holidays in the past but I'm learning from friends who are now using EH that things have changed.

Here's some things to consider.

1. Owners who rent for less than Extra Holidays gets devalue the product. That not only hurts EH but also other owners.

2. If an owner is using a point manager the point managers are making at least 40%.

3. Extra Holidays can advertise the rentals and sell them in more ways than the owner or point manager can. EH is selling owners stays on the different travel sites; not just on the EH website.

4. If the entire reservation doesn't get sold but some or all of the remaining nights do later sell Extra Holidays is now paying the owners for those nights. I don't know when this change came about but it's huge plus for owners. Also from what I learned the owner isn't being charged for the additional housekeeping credits if those other nights sell.

5. Extra Holidays offers security to the buyer that they don't get when they rent directly from owners and point managers. Some of you might not be aware that there's been a number of issues and I'm not talking about a few isolated incidents. This is something the heavily rented resorts in particular deal with and have reported up the chain of command.

6. Wyndham is allowing owners who've gotten "the letters" to rent through EH.

7. But I'll have to deal with reporting it on my taxes if I use EH! Unless the buyer is paying the owner in cash or by check for their rental using the payment sites/apps isn't a way around that anymore or not for much longer.

8. Owners always have the option to call in and cancel a reservation if no part of it rented as long as it's still 15 days before the check in date. However if the owner has a good reservation EH reps are advising that there's a lot of people buying stays with two weeks of the check in date. This is something the mega renters and point managers know and why they find it worthwhile not to cancel some reservations that haven't yet rented.

9. Extra Holidays reps have lists of resorts and dates that are needed to help owners with what to book. From what I was told they will not take reservations for stays on the Owner Priority lists. Also the reservation only has to be 30 days out now not 60 days like it used to be.

10. The buyers being allowed to cancel with 14 days is still a major concern for owners who use Extra Holidays. I'm sure that Wyndham is working on a solution. Is there already an option for the reservation to be purchased as refundable or nonrefundable? Although anyone who rents on their own either has or eventually will have to deal with a buyer who has a death in the family, an accident or illness that makes the family unable to go, weather related issues, etc.

 

[kanerf]

This is why the resellers are flooded with 600K+ point contracts for very little. The Megas are dumping em left and right.

 

[schreff]

The funny thing is this was an old but major selling benefit spewed out by many of Wyndham's sales folks for years. My wife and I were even given a free copy from the guy who wrote the book on how to become rich by renting your timeshare, a Wyndham salesperson from Durango. Is that non-commercial use part of the contract? If so, when was it added?

 

[HitchHiker71]

The funny thing is this was an old but major selling benefit spewed out by many of Wyndham's sales folks for years. My wife and I were even given a free copy from the guy who wrote the book on how to become rich by renting your timeshare, a Wyndham salesperson from Durango. Is that non-commercial use part of the contract? If so, when was it added?

There has been a statement on personal use only (no commercial use) in the Member's Directory since at least 2012. There is also verbiage in some of the contracts after certain dates - there are past threads you can search here on the Wyndham forums that contain screenshots of the excerpted contract verbiage - not always easy to find though - if I can dig them up perhaps I'll create a sticky thread with the screenshots to make them more easily accessible.

 

[Mongoose]

Doesn't wyndham give their top tier elites something like 12 guest certificates? Hard to imagine those are all used for friends and family vs rental....

 

[HitchHiker71]

Doesn't wyndham give their top tier elites something like 12 guest certificates? Hard to imagine those are all used for friends and family vs rental....

It is 15 per one million points - beyond one million points it's 5 additional GCs per 500,00 VIP eligible points, it's all outlined here:

Guest Confirmations

Are you a Club Wyndham owner? Learn more about guest confirmations, which allow you to share your ownership with family and friends.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

 

[chapjim]

Doesn't wyndham give their top tier elites something like 12 guest certificates? Hard to imagine those are all used for friends and family vs rental....

Not hard at all to imagine if you try.

 

[schreff]

There has been a statement on personal use only (no commercial use) in the Member's Directory since at least 2012. There is also verbiage in some of the contracts after certain dates - there are past threads you can search here on the Wyndham forums that contain screenshots of the excerpted contract verbiage - not always easy to find though - if I can dig them up perhaps I'll create a sticky thread with the screenshots to make them more easily accessible.

Thanks. I understand fully; however, it doesn't forgive Wyndham for the use of " Oh you'll be able to rent your timeshare for much more than your annual maintenance fee " lie that the sales folks told millions of prospects and now owners. I do remember the sales guy from Durango who suggested that we Platinums should buy more and make reservations for and rent out Daytona 500, Super Bowl, etc. weeks. We never did but I used to attend owner's updates and this was a common Wyndham sales tactic. The Durango dude's book did not talk about Extra Holidays but about setting up a LLC and even included direct rental contract examples. Actually the book was very well written and a good sales tactic then.

 

[Jan M.]

The commercial use verbiage was in all developer contact paperwork we signed over the 20 years we've owned. It's a much larger number of times we signed than I'd rather publicly admit to. Most of that number were purchases but there's been some recessions too.

In the many presentations we attended we were told repeatedly about renting. Over the years I watched the volume of renting grow to the point that it had gotten out of hand. I've said more than once that when Wyndham finally discovered what a s**t job they'd been doing of managing the trust in accordance with the governing docs and guidelines they've taken action to rectify the situation.

VIP owners getting their developer benefits on any resale points in their accounts made renting very lucrative. For some owners the renting paid their maintenance fees and sometimes more. For other owners and point managers the renting provided a very nice living or supplemental income. It's hard to lose that.

After so many years of the way things were accepting the changes to get the program in compliance with the governing docs and guidelines has been a hard pill to swallow for a number of owners.

Anything that's said by the salespeople doesn't mean squat if it isn't officially in writing. They can lie with impunity by intent or because they don't actually know the system.

We're fortunate in being able to say that enjoy what we own and don't regret what we've spent. However we bought to platinum level before there was so much information available online and before I found TUG. Unfortunately there's a lot of of current and former owners who have regrets because of the lies, misinformation and lack of enforcement that existed for so long. Buyer beware.

 

[Mongoose]

It is 15 per one million points - beyond one million points it's 5 additional GCs per 500,00 VIP eligible points, it's all outlined here:

Guest Confirmations

Are you a Club Wyndham owner? Learn more about guest confirmations, which allow you to share your ownership with family and friends.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

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Millions of Wyndham points?! I have seen a few on ebay for around 1M. Its hard to image what the retail cost is on something like that, and if you had that money to spend, aren't there better options?

 

[9969hi]

I received the first warning letter about commercial use. Due to some elder care family issues I am not able to use all my points each year. I did rent some units to friends last year and also used Koala to use a portion of my points. I do have 4 Koala reservations for this year. I don't know what's going to happen with those reservations. I can't believe that on Koala website there are over a 100 reservations to rent at Wyndham Hawaiian resorts , Wyndham is putting all those reservations on Koala platform and then cancel my Koala reservations and use Koala themselves to rent. I am giving Extra Holidays a try on two week long spring Florida reservation to see if I come out even close to even with maintenance fees.
Does Wyndham expect me to liquidate my membership and get some use for 3 years which I can't use. I paid Wyndham over $130000 in the past for developer purchases, then in 5 years when my mother and sister in law die go back to Wyndham and pay another $150000.

 

[Jan M.]

I received the first warning letter about commercial use. Due to some elder care family issues I am not able to use all my points each year. I did rent some units to friends last year and also used Koala to use a portion of my points. I do have 4 Koala reservations for this year. I don't know what's going to happen with those reservations. I can't believe that on Koala website there are over a 100 reservations to rent at Wyndham Hawaiian resorts , Wyndham is putting all those reservations on Koala platform and then cancel my Koala reservations and use Koala themselves to rent. I am giving Extra Holidays a try on two week long spring Florida reservation to see if I come out even close to even with maintenance fees.
Does Wyndham expect me to liquidate my membership and get some use for 3 years which I can't use. I paid Wyndham over $130000 in the past for developer purchases, then in 5 years when my mother and sister in law die go back to Wyndham and pay another $150000.

Listing a two week stay with EH is very risky. They might only rent 1-3 nights of the entire stay and you'd take a huge loss! The standard advice is to break a stay down into 3 nights over a weekend or 3-4 nights during the week. That way you aren't risking as much.

I have two friends, both got letters, who were contacted by Extra Holidays to list with them. They were given lists of what EH is looking for and help/coaching on what and how it's best to book. Our little friend group has been invested in seeing how this works out for them.

Initially we are all quite impressed. They were told that their stays could be rented in one or several transactions. Say they had a 3 night stay. The stay could be rented in one, two or three transactions. Also they'd wouldn't be charged any additional housekeeping credits if it was rented in more than one transaction. They were also told they could call in 17 or 18? days before the check in date to cancel a stay as long as no part of it had rented. The EH reps are able to tell them how many nights of a stay have rented. All of that was also good to know.

So here is what we're overwhelmingly unimpressed by.

1. No one can tell you how much your stays rented for. The EH reps can't see that. Nor can they see anything about the stays within I think it's two days of the check in date but for sure once the check in date has passed. You won't know anything until the check comes. See #4 for more about that.

2. One friend had and still has quite a few stays listed with EH and has never seen them listed on the EH website! They had a stay that hadn't sold and they were able to cancel. Both of us are quite knowledgeable about what rents and for a good price too. That stay absolutely should have rented quickly and for big bucks! So where did EH have it listed that it didn't sell and why didn't they list it on their site or several sites? Also it took them over two weeks after receiving all the completed forms for the stays to get them listed. That boggled both of our minds because once you have a template set up for a resort it literally only takes less than five minutes to put in dates, the unit size, price and list it. For a 40% cut their service and marketing leaves an awful lot to be desired.

3. Unless someone rents the stay through one of those last minute cheaper no refund deals they can cancel within I think it's 24 hours before the check in date. That means you're totally screwed if it's even close to a last minute cancellation because there's not enough time left for the stay to be relisted and for someone else to rent the stay. If the stay was a lot of points, points = $$$, most people would be upset, devastated, outraged, ....

4. According to the EH agreement the checks for payment are supposed to be issued within 45 days of the check out date for the stay. Both friends are still waiting on payments that are too far overdue to make the typical holiday excuses for. One is now 22 days past the  max of 45 days!

 

[chapjim]

I gave EH two 2023 weeks in 2BR units at Bonnet Creek -- April 22-29 and April 29-May 6. Both are Value seaaon costing 112,000 point each. They are Saturday-Saturday weeks and my thinking is that people going there are unlikely to want less than a full week. I could be wrong about that -- we'll see.

Some time ago EH rep told me they could list on any number of sites including Expedia.com, Booking.com, Hotels.com, Travelocity.com, and TripAdvisor.com in addition to EH's site. There may have been another one or two but I couldn't scribble any faster. I did some browsing to check availabilityof 2BR units at Bonnet Creek for those weeks.

April 22-29
EH $3,473
Booking.com $3,473
Hotels.com $3,472
Expedia & Travelocity (affiliated) Not Available
TripAdvisor Listings are from third parties and the links timed out. Gave up, too hard.

April 29-May 6
EH Not Available
Booking.com $2,963
Hotels.com $2,961
Expedia.com & Travelocity Not Available

1. Obviously, there's no way to know if my weeks have been sold or are still available. Somebody's weeks are available!
2. Could it be that EH is dictating the listing price to Booking,com and Hotels.com?
3. Not sure what to make of the second week seeing that EH is sold out but the two others show availability. Maybe there's nothing to conclude from this?
4. There's still a lot of uncertainty about EH and uncertainty means risk. But for us erstwhile Wyndham renters, there's not much else without the greater risk of having an account suspended.
5. EH won't take Presidential units and doesn't want upgrades. Might as well use resale points.

My one experience with EH was in 2022 -- a 2BR Deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek, May 14-22, booked with 112,000 resale points. My cost was about $840 ($7.5/1,000) and EH paid me $1,056.54 on July 6, 2022 (exactly 45 days after check-out).

 

[Sandi Bo]

I gave EH two 2023 weeks in 2BR units at Bonnet Creek -- April 22-29 and April 29-May 6. Both are Value seaaon costing 112,000 point each. They are Saturday-Saturday weeks and my thinking is that people going there are unlikely to want less than a full week. I could be wrong about that -- we'll see.

Some time ago EH rep told me they could list on any number of sites including Expedia.com, Booking.com, Hotels.com, Travelocity.com, and TripAdvisor.com in addition to EH's site. There may have been another one or two but I couldn't scribble any faster. I did some browsing to check availabilityof 2BR units at Bonnet Creek for those weeks.

April 22-29
EH $3,473
Booking.com $3,473
Hotels.com $3,472
Expedia & Travelocity (affiliated) Not Available
TripAdvisor Listings are from third parties and the links timed out. Gave up, too hard.

April 29-May 6
EH Not Available
Booking.com $2,963
Hotels.com $2,961
Expedia.com & Travelocity Not Available

1. Obviously, there's no way to know if my weeks have been sold or are still available. Somebody's weeks are available!
2. Could it be that EH is dictating the listing price to Booking,com and Hotels.com?
3. Not sure what to make of the second week seeing that EH is sold out but the two others show availability. Maybe there's nothing to conclude from this?
4. There's still a lot of uncertainty about EH and uncertainty means risk. But for us erstwhile Wyndham renters, there's not much else without the greater risk of having an account suspended.
5. EH won't take Presidential units and doesn't want upgrades. Might as well use resale points.

My one experience with EH was in 2022 -- a 2BR Deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek, May 14-22, booked with 112,000 resale points. My cost was about $840 ($7.5/1,000) and EH paid me $1,056.54 on July 6, 2022 (exactly 45 days after check-out).

Interesting, thanks Jim. Curious about your comment - EH doesn't want upgrades? I'm surprised to see it would even be mentioned, why do they care?

 

[Cyrus24]

My one experience with EH was in 2022 -- a 2BR Deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek, May 14-22, booked with 112,000 resale points. My cost was about $840 ($7.5/1,000) and EH paid me $1,056.54 on July 6, 2022 (exactly 45 days after check-out).

THANK YOU for sharing your actual experience with EH. You ended up with taxable income on you EH experience. And, that is much better than taking a loss.

I'd love to see a thread where EH actual experiences are shared, much like the threads on maintenance fees.. A monitored thread, no complaints, no arguing, just actual results.

 

[chapjim]

Interesting, thanks Jim. Curious about your comment - EH doesn't want upgrades? I'm surprised to see it would even be mentioned, why do they care?

I think a problem would be that the contract with EH would have to be terminated, a new one negotiated, and EH would have to revise its listings. It may be that the EH rep just recommended I stick with 2BR Deluxe units.

Whatever the reason, it was enough to make me use resale points instead of developer points.

 

[rickandcindy23]

THANK YOU for sharing your actual experience with EH. You ended up with taxable income on you EH experience. And, that is much better than taking a loss.

I'd love to see a thread where EH actual experiences are shared, much like the threads on maintenance fees.. A monitored thread, no complaints, no arguing, just actual results.

No guarantee of that, but I would be willing to try with our weeks, even though I think it's outrageous that is the only way we can rent what we own. It's kind of a monopolistic practice. I cannot imagine that being legal, especially after sales' constant claims that we can rent what we own. They neglect to mention that it's through EH.

 

[Sandi Bo]

I think a problem would be that the contract with EH would have to be terminated, a new one negotiated, and EH would have to revise its listings. It may be that the EH rep just recommended I stick with 2BR Deluxe units.

Whatever the reason, it was enough to make me use resale points instead of developer points.

Gotcha. I misinterpreted - I read as if I booked a 1 bedroom and upgraded to a 2 bedroom, they wouldn't want my 2 bedroom. What you said makes sense now.

 

[cbyrne1174]

They could probably make EH more profitable for themselves if they just bought our points off us for the MF cost of them and made their own reservations from the points boughten from the owners. It would make the EH availability the same as owner availability. I wouldn't mind that as long as they capped EH bookings at 9 months out like they do with Club Pass. I'd like having that safety net where I'm not stuck with a $4,000/year bill if I'm not in a financial situation to spent that kind of money that year.