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Mini Presentation At Marriott Timber Lodge

wvacations

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Went to a mini-presentation this morning at Timber Lodge. Normally this is just a group that watches a short video on the Destination Club Program. It is supposed to last 30 minutes and you get 5,000 Marriott Reward Points. This morning either everyone was up too late or they went out skiing because we were the only ones to show up! So it became kind of a personal presentation. No pressure, right around 25 minutes.

Some information that the sales person said :

- Marriott Vacation Worldwide is debt free and owns lots of land. They will be selling the land and purchasing distressed resorts and converting them to Marriott Vacation Properties. Of course all this inventory will be in the land trust

- DC Points selling 10 times faster than forecast. That is why there have been 5 price increases since the opening of the Destination Club. Minimum purchase is 1,500 points.

- The sheet that was on the table to review before the presentation start mentions "Ask how to SUPER CHARGE your vacation portfolio." He leaned towards saying you had to buy trust points to use "ALL" your points for Trust Inventory. However, when asked point blank, "If I buy 1,500 DC points, can my 13,700 enrolled points access the trust inventory?" He answered "Not technically." Indicated that it would be easier to get trust inventory over to exchange company inventory if using at least some Trust points. Confirmed you cannot mix trust/enrolled points for a single night, but you could get something like 3 trust nights and 4 exchange nights to make a week vacation.

- II inventory of Marriott properties will diminish. As more and more owners convert to points, the inventory will not be in II.


- Later this year Marriott will have resale or buy back program for DC points. Selling points is such a a success they will be able to buy them back and sell them again.

All of the above was nothing to me and most likely not new to TUG. Here are some statements that I found to be new,

- II is going to a point system just like DC and RCI. No more trading Silver Studios to Platinum 2BR's. II has already started limiting trades of studios outside of 60 days. I have actually noticed this over the last 4 months. My Platinum Studios at Shadow Ridge use to see the exact same inventory as my 1BR's. Now I am not seeing the same inventory any longer.

- Price to enroll DEVELOPER weeks is going to be $3,000 within the next 60 days! He did not have a new price for "external" weeks to be enrolled.

Meeting came to an end without a push for us to buy points right now. He said it is not IF we later to buy points, it is WHEN decide to points they will be more expensive.

All and all not a bad presentation.
 

GregT

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Went to a mini-presentation this morning at Timber Lodge. Normally this is just a group that watches a short video on the Destination Club Program. It is supposed to last 30 minutes and you get 5,000 Marriott Reward Points. This morning either everyone was up too late or they went out skiing because we were the only ones to show up! So it became kind of a personal presentation. No pressure, right around 25 minutes.

Some information that the sales person said :

- Marriott Vacation Worldwide is debt free and owns lots of land. They will be selling the land and purchasing distressed resorts and converting them to Marriott Vacation Properties. Of course all this inventory will be in the land trust

- DC Points selling 10 times faster than forecast. That is why there have been 5 price increases since the opening of the Destination Club. Minimum purchase is 1,500 points.

- The sheet that was on the table to review before the presentation start mentions "Ask how to SUPER CHARGE your vacation portfolio." He leaned towards saying you had to buy trust points to use "ALL" your points for Trust Inventory. However, when asked point blank, "If I buy 1,500 DC points, can my 13,700 enrolled points access the trust inventory?" He answered "Not technically." Indicated that it would be easier to get trust inventory over to exchange company inventory if using at least some Trust points. Confirmed you cannot mix trust/enrolled points for a single night, but you could get something like 3 trust nights and 4 exchange nights to make a week vacation.

- II inventory of Marriott properties will diminish. As more and more owners convert to points, the inventory will not be in II.


- Later this year Marriott will have resale or buy back program for DC points. Selling points is such a a success they will be able to buy them back and sell them again.

All of the above was nothing to me and most likely not new to TUG. Here are some statements that I found to be new,

- II is going to a point system just like DC and RCI. No more trading Silver Studios to Platinum 2BR's. II has already started limiting trades of studios outside of 60 days. I have actually noticed this over the last 4 months. My Platinum Studios at Shadow Ridge use to see the exact same inventory as my 1BR's. Now I am not seeing the same inventory any longer.

- Price to enroll DEVELOPER weeks is going to be $3,000 within the next 60 days! He did not have a new price for "external" weeks to be enrolled.

Meeting came to an end without a push for us to buy points right now. He said it is not IF we later to buy points, it is WHEN decide to points they will be more expensive.

All and all not a bad presentation.

At least he didn't tell you that your legacy points were worthless. That's what he told me after telling me he could help me supercharge my (worthless) legacy points.

What I believe they are suggesting is a clever way to use exchange/Trust inventory. They should advertise it as legitimate and promote the heck out of it.

If I buy 1,500 Trust Points and then use them to book a single day out the Trust -- I break the week in the Trust. Now there is a fragment and I book the fragment with my legacy points. In this manner, my legacy points can access Trust inventory more seamlessly.

I do believe that the Trust will get bigger. I do believe that legacy points will work just fine to access the Trust for quite awhile. i do believe that they will buy distressed properties and stick them in the Trust (they really should -- HGVC is doing this and Marriott should too if they are the leader).

Yes they are debt free -- because a $50M annual royalty that is payable to Marriott isn't based on debt -- but it is still heavy.

I remain optimistic on SpinCo's viability and think Marriott will remain the leader in the space. I have no idea if it is a good investment but I believe it will be around for awhile.

I think we TUGgers will figure out the ways to maximize the system that has been developed -- warts and all -- and I believe we will be very happy with our best practices, even if different from the past.

All the best,

Greg
 

dioxide45

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Some information that the sales person said :

- Marriott Vacation Worldwide is debt free and owns lots of land. They will be selling the land and purchasing distressed resorts and converting them to Marriott Vacation Properties. Of course all this inventory will be in the land trust

Debt free? This is from the investor relations website. Perhaps someone with more experience in reading a corporate balance sheet can offer more information. Are these just the independant equity firms that own a part of the company?

LIABILITIES AND DIVISIONAL EQUITY

Accounts payable
$ 67 $ 87
Advance deposits
56 48
Accrued liabilities
118 92
Deferred revenue
48 56
Payroll and benefits liability
71 72
Liability for Marriott Rewards loyalty program
179 220
Deferred compensation liability
63 64
Debt (including $830 and $1,017 from VIEs, respectively)
833 1,022

Other (including $4 and $4 from VIEs, respectively)
82 77

- DC Points selling 10 times faster than forecast. That is why there have been 5 price increases since the opening of the Destination Club. Minimum purchase is 1,500 points.

I think the ability to sell 1,000 point packages has helped them to move a lot of inventory. For prime inventory, these packages work out to about a day or two in the legacy weeks system. They could have never done that under weeks.
 

GregT

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Debt free? This is from the investor relations website. Perhaps someone with more experience in reading a corporate balance sheet can offer more information. Are these just the independant equity firms that own a part of the company?


Debt (including $830 and $1,017 from VIEs, respectively)
833 1,022

Dioxide,

This is just funky accounting -- my recollection from when I read SpinCo's documents was that they show both the receivable and the underlying payable onto their balance sheet when they sell a property to an owner that financed the purchase and then SpinCo subsequently securitized the note. In the old days (like 3 years ago -- this was an accounting change that was not specific to Marriott and may have influenced their decision to spin out SpinCo) they wouldn't show either the asset or the liability on their book, but now they do.

So they show debt and a receivable that is really owed to/from other people, and they are merely the conduit ----- all as part of the new and improved accounting rules.

I love accounting. :doh:

Best,

Greg
 
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windje2000

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Dioxide,

This is just funky accounting -- my recollection from when I read SpinCo's documents was that they show both the receivable and the underlying payable onto their balance sheet when they sell a property to an owner that financed the purchase and then SpinCo subsequently securitized the note. In the old days (like 3 years ago -- this was an accounting change that was not specific to Marriott and may have influenced their decision to spin out SpinCo) they wouldn't show either the asset or the liability on their book, but now they do.

So they show debt and a receivable that is really owed to/from other people, and they are merely the conduit ----- all as part of the new and improved accounting rules.

I love accounting. :doh:

Best,

Greg

I think the reason for that accounting treatment is that entity that owns the securitized note probably has the right to 'put' that note back to VAC if the maker defaults.
 

dioxide45

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They will be selling the land and purchasing distressed resorts and converting them to Marriott Vacation Properties. Of course all this inventory will be in the land trust.

Something rather interesting to consider if they purchase distressed properties. If they are buying existing timeshare properties with owner, those properties WILL NOT be trust properties. There will be weeks owners just like you and I. Those owners will likely own weeks and will have to work through the DC exchange company to get exchanges in to other Marriott properties. Of course Marriott will likely try to make money enrolling these owners just like they do enrolling all of us legacy owners.

Now if the properties are vacant or they take over a lot of unsold units in a property, then that inventory would be in the trust.

I however don't believe that any new properties will only be in the trust since in most cases there will be owners with deeds in many of them.
 

jimf41

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Something rather interesting to consider if they purchase distressed properties. If they are buying existing timeshare properties with owner, those properties WILL NOT be trust properties. There will be weeks owners just like you and I. Those owners will likely own weeks and will have to work through the DC exchange company to get exchanges in to other Marriott properties. Of course Marriott will likely try to make money enrolling these owners just like they do enrolling all of us legacy owners.

Now if the properties are vacant or they take over a lot of unsold units in a property, then that inventory would be in the trust.

I however don't believe that any new properties will only be in the trust since in most cases there will be owners with deeds in many of them.

This brings up a problem that I've asked about before but never got a clear answer from tuggers.

I was told early on by a salesrep that if M foreclosed or other wise took possession of a legacy week they couldn't put it in the trust. The reason given was that you really can't change a deed. I've asked several lawyer acquaintances about this and some say you can change it, some say you can't.

Dioxide, I'm wondering where you got this info. It's the first I've heard anyone confirming it outside of the salesrep that told me about it.
 

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II going to a point system...?? Let's see what we will have in store now......:ponder:
 

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Something rather interesting to consider if they purchase distressed properties. If they are buying existing timeshare properties with owner, those properties WILL NOT be trust properties. There will be weeks owners just like you and I. Those owners will likely own weeks and will have to work through the DC exchange company to get exchanges in to other Marriott properties. Of course Marriott will likely try to make money enrolling these owners just like they do enrolling all of us legacy owners.

Now if the properties are vacant or they take over a lot of unsold units in a property, then that inventory would be in the trust.

I however don't believe that any new properties will only be in the trust since in most cases there will be owners with deeds in many of them.

I agree.

VAC will pursue the acquisition of other timeshare systems and independents. While not yet ready to make a major acquisition, Bluegreen looks like it will fall to someone. Wyndham and Diamond are probably sharpening their pencils.

Benefits to VAC are three-fold:
- Operations management revenue. The name of the game is market share. The industry is consolidating. From this everything else flows.

- Expanded owner base to sell member services and generate fees.

- Acquire sale-able assets at low cost. These will become trust inventory.
Currently, sales and marketing costs are ~50% of new contract revenue. This is not likely to improve substantially. However, inventory cost is currently ~40%. By acquiring inventory on an asset-light basis at ~20% , VAC can double its new contract profit margin without increasing sales volume.
This is currently happening with selective ROFR acquisitions. VAC is beginning to "blend" its product cost down.
Yes, VAC considers its exchange system inventory requirements when choosing to exercise ROFR. But, over time it will increasingly migrate its legacy system inventory to the trust at low cost, insuring favorable margins it does not currently enjoy.

I expect inventory cost to begin creeping down in the next several quarters. In a couple of years, it will be a major contributor to VAC's bottom line.

I have long believed that the real objective of the Points product was to make the absorption of other systems possible. Sure, it had the virtue of monetizing its then standing dog weeks. But, that was/is a short term benefit. Once sold, its utility for that purpose is gone. Points is the common denominator which allow acquisitions to play in a system.

As an aside, and purely from an investment perspective, VAC looks like a winner to me. It is currently trading at ~5x EBITDA. The industry average is 8x, and the potential for dramatically lower inventory costs, and an expanded owner base, are not yet being considered.
IMO, those looking for top line revenue growth are looking in the wrong place.
 
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Fredm

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I think the reason for that accounting treatment is that entity that owns the securitized note probably has the right to 'put' that note back to VAC if the maker defaults.

Correct.

Although the credit markets are coming back, terms are no longer as attractive. The originator bears the risk of non-performing loans.
 
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Mamianka

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II going to a point system...?? Let's see what we will have in store now......:ponder:

They already have that chart set up in the book they send us, so somebody has already done the math, and now is just waiting for the word to tip this all over. I imagine that they will allow both ways of trading for a while - who knows what they all have in mind? I can still waste five minutes deciding if I should eat an apple, or an apple danish . . .
 

windje2000

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I agree.

- Acquire sale-able assets at low cost. These will become trust inventory.
Currently, sales and marketing costs are ~50% of new contract revenue. This is not likely to improve substantially. However, inventory cost is currently ~40%. By acquiring inventory on an asset-light basis at ~20% , VAC can double its new contract profit margin without increasing sales volume.
This is currently happening with selective ROFR acquisitions. VAC is beginning to "blend" its product cost down.
I expect inventory cost to begin creeping down in the next several quarters. In a couple of years, it will be a major contributor to VAC's bottom line.


As an aside, and purely from an investment perspective, VAC looks like a winner to me. It is currently trading at ~5x EBITDA. The industry average is 8x, and the potential for dramatically lower inventory costs, and an expanded owner base, are not yet being considered.
IMO, those looking for top line revenue growth are looking in the wrong place.

Saw an industry study of product cost on the II investor website CLICK HERE and then click on the November, 2011 presentation. There's a breakdown of industry costs based on ARDA 2010 data on page 12 indicating average product cost is about 24% of revenue. 'Soft costs' represent the balance.

I agree that product cost (as a percent of revenue) will probably decline from Marriott's historic levels to a level closer to that of the industry.

As an aside, the stock up to around $23 from the $18 it started at.
 

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... - The sheet that was on the table to review before the presentation start mentions "Ask how to SUPER CHARGE your vacation portfolio." He leaned towards saying you had to buy trust points to use "ALL" your points for Trust Inventory. However, when asked point blank, "If I buy 1,500 DC points, can my 13,700 enrolled points access the trust inventory?" He answered "Not technically." Indicated that it would be easier to get trust inventory over to exchange company inventory if using at least some Trust points. Confirmed you cannot mix trust/enrolled points for a single night, but you could get something like 3 trust nights and 4 exchange nights to make a week vacation. ...

Hmmmm. I still don't like that "SUPER CHARGE" stuff because if the sales reps don't explain it correctly (the way yours did,) then it has the potential to be very misleading. But I'm encouraged that finally somebody has heard during a presentation the correct technical nuances of exchanging in the DC that we here on TUG have already figured out! What you heard sounds much better than any of the totally wrong versions of "if you buy Trust Points your Enrolled/Legacy Points will magically morph into points with direct access to Trust inventory," that many sales reps have tried to pass off.
 
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SueDonJ

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This brings up a problem that I've asked about before but never got a clear answer from tuggers.

I was told early on by a salesrep that if M foreclosed or other wise took possession of a legacy week they couldn't put it in the trust. The reason given was that you really can't change a deed. I've asked several lawyer acquaintances about this and some say you can change it, some say you can't.

Dioxide, I'm wondering where you got this info. It's the first I've heard anyone confirming it outside of the salesrep that told me about it.

Now I'm more confused.

Here's Dioxide's thread with ongoing Trust conveyances. Haven't we been assuming all along that Marriott CAN permanently convey re-acquired deeded Weeks to the Trust? They must be able to do it, I'd guess, because they've conveyed many Weeks since the original inventory which was used to seed the Trust. I'd also like to hear someone explain the technical process of how that's done.

If it can't be done, does that mean that none of the inventory that makes up the Trust was ever previously sold as Weeks by Marriott? And, wouldn't that mean that Marriott will never be able to offer a process by which a Weeks owner can permanently "upgrade" his/her ownership by trading in Weeks for DC Points (which is something that some folks expect will be a future aspect of the DC program?)
 

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If the trust buys distressed properties and turns them into a MVC, who pays the substantial cost of bringing the property up to "Marriott standards"? Marriott Vacation Worldwide or the members of the trust? Is there any provision for trust owners to be required to pay a special assessment?
 

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The reason given was that you really can't change a deed. I've asked several lawyer acquaintances about this and some say you can change it, some say you can't.

Whatever lawyer told you a fee simple interest in real property can't be transferred ought to turn in his or her bar card. There may be issues with liens or other legal problems, but real property is transferable.

If the trust buys distressed properties and turns them into a MVC, who pays the substantial cost of bringing the property up to "Marriott standards"? Marriott Vacation Worldwide or the members of the trust? Is there any provision for trust owners to be required to pay a special assessment?

The trust bought it. The trust owns it. The trust pays. (Not you.)

Your legacy week at a Marriott resort that needs an upgrade?

You bought it. You own it. You pay. (Not the trust.)
 

BocaBoy

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This brings up a problem that I've asked about before but never got a clear answer from tuggers.

I was told early on by a salesrep that if M foreclosed or other wise took possession of a legacy week they couldn't put it in the trust. The reason given was that you really can't change a deed. I've asked several lawyer acquaintances about this and some say you can change it, some say you can't.

Of course you can change a deed. It happens every time a piece of real estate is sold or the title is changed. If the trust buys a week it then has title to that week, just as it has title to all the other weeks in the trust. The trust owns weeks and the individual members of the trust own various percentages of the trust, represented by points.
 

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Whatever lawyer told you a fee simple interest in real property can't be transferred ought to turn in his or her bar card. There may be issues with liens or other legal problems, but real property is transferable. ...

Maybe the confusion is with whether or not previously-deeded Weeks can be permanently converted to Points, if folks like that sales rep (and possibly an attorney or two) think that conveying a Week to the Trust is akin to changing the interval permanently from a Week to a stipulated amount of DC Points? I guess the answer to that might lie in whether there is a mechanism by which a Week that is conveyed to the Trust and given a Points value for DC usage, can be at a later date removed from the Trust and re-sold as a Week?

I could be way off into Neverland here and causing more confusion than what any sales reps or lawyers have added already. But I've been assuming all along that Weeks can be conveyed in and out of the Trust at Marriott's will, that conveying a Week does not result in the Week being dissolved and replaced with DC Points that can then never be converted back to the underlying Week. (Not that Marriott has a need now to reverse Trust conveyances, but just as a future possibility.) Is that how it works?
 

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Maybe the confusion is with whether or not previously-deeded Weeks can be permanently converted to Points, if folks like that sales rep (and possibly an attorney or two) think that conveying a Week to the Trust is akin to changing the interval permanently from a Week to a stipulated amount of DC Points? I guess the answer to that might lie in whether there is a mechanism by which a Week that is conveyed to the Trust and given a Points value for DC usage, can be at a later date removed from the Trust and re-sold as a Week?

I could be way off into Neverland here and causing more confusion than what any sales reps or lawyers have added already. But I've been assuming all along that Weeks can be conveyed in and out of the Trust at Marriott's will, that conveying a Week does not result in the Week being dissolved and replaced with DC Points that can then never be converted back to the underlying Week. (Not that Marriott has a need now to reverse Trust conveyances, but just as a future possibility.) Is that how it works?


The underlying currency of the system is weeks. The trust buys and owns weeks just like you and me.

The trust sells beneficial interests in what it owns. Just like a corporation sells shares.

Corporations pay dividends.

The trust pays dividends in kind, in the form of occupancy in the assets it owns.
 

SMB1

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- II inventory of Marriott properties will diminish. As more and more owners convert to points, the inventory will not be in II.

I think this is a foregone conclusion. However, as was discussed when the DC was first launched this will also mean that fewer owners will be trying to access those weeks in the system. Therefore the likelihood of a successful trade would be the same, no?
 

dioxide45

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The trust is full of a lot of "reacquired" weeks. Marriott actually files separate points notices for reacquired and developer inventory. My bet is that the reacquired inventory is from foreclosure against loans and MFs.
 

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I think this is a foregone conclusion. However, as was discussed when the DC was first launched this will also mean that fewer owners will be trying to access those weeks in the system. Therefore the likelihood of a successful trade would be the same, no?

Also if you want to exchange into a Marriott resort outside the DC e.g. In Europe, then you have to use II. Also European users can only exchange into US Marriotts via II. So unless the supply of US Marriott weeks in II is maintained then the availability of European Marriott weeks exchanges will reduce as owners reduce deposits.
 

m61376

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And their recent announcement that enrollment prices for all eligible weeks will increase to $2395 on June 14th negates the supposed price increase for developer weeks. Makes one question the veracity of a lot of what you were told when something concrete was so misleading.
 
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