[MERGED] VIP Downgrade letter

[cbyrne1174]

I disagree that it's opt-in today. It certainly doesn't make the owner/customer feel as though it's opt-in. It's opt-in in name only. It's really a high pressure opt-in system - which to me is really opt-out at the end of the day. The entire system was built based upon psychological data that shows that the majority of people have difficulty saying no repeatedly and have a tendency to want to believe and trust other people. In other words, the entire sales model leveraged by the timeshare industry was and is intentionally designed to manipulate people's tendencies. Sure there are those like me, that can tolerate and manage these manipulative and deceptive models because I've taught myself about them over time. But most people aren't like me, so I've learned in this life. My personality type according to Myers-Briggs is 3% of the population. I'm an oddball by definition.

That said - I don't blame the body snatchers either. They are in it to win it so to speak - and they are largely commission based and just doing whatever they can to earn money to support their families just like everyone else. I place responsibility on the company that created the system and that teaches these people how to deploy and employ deceptive sales practices - and make no mistake - Wyndham may practice cognitive dissonance on this topic - but they are very well aware of what goes on. They employ covert recording sessions regularly to ensure things don't spin out of control - while honing their practices which push boundaries to sell the product. This includes the concierge desk. If Wyndham really want to offer better owner experiences and customer service - they will endorse an opt-out based system - and staff the concierge desks with employees that are actually from customer service. The concierge desk is staffed entirely by the marketing team (part of the sales and marketing division), therefore their primary mission is to market the sales updates and get owners and renters to attend the sales updates. Their primary mission is not to provide customer service. Some do a better job of customer service than others without a doubt - but if customer service was job one at Wyndham - the concierge desks would be staffed primarily by customer service personnel - and if you wanted to opt-in - the customer service concierge would then have you speak to someone else from the marketing division regarding attending a sales update. Again - I realize this is a very tall ask - but this has been and will continue to be my ask whenever I have the opportunity to provide feedback on this particular topic.

I've openly asked why do I keep getting offered to attend updates when I have 8 resale contracts and have already been to over 20 of them just to get the gift and am clearly never going to buy anything and they said that they have a quota that they have to hit regardless of the members chances of purchasing. In the last 5 or so that Ive been to, the sales staff don't even bother with me, but rather complain at me for continuing to come to the updates. I just say that every time I tell them no, they offer me more money and call my room and I'm honest about them not having a snowball's chance in hell of selling me anything.

 

[OutSkiing]

So this entire thread may have been started with an erroneous or invalid premise.

The write-in is just one (important) detail .. circumstance is the same .. made a purchase last year to become founders.

Bob

 

[chapjim]

The write-in is just one (important) detail .. circumstance is the same .. made a purchase last year to become founders.

Bob

The point of your original post was that Wyndham had reneged on a contractual term, that you would be grandfathered to VIP Founders. Now, it seems you're not certain that the contract included anything about grandfathering. We'll wait until the end of July to see what the contract really says but if there is nothing there about grandfathering, this thread is for naught, having been based on a flawed memory.

The logic of an EOY contract counting half seems unassailable.

 

[lost patience]

@chapjim So it is ok that Wyndham is changing a feature that took us to VIPP? Our EOY contracts were already included in our membership when we then moved to VIPF. Our case is similar but different. Our EOY contracts were acquired many years ago. Adding a small contract in 2021 took us to founders. Why did a 325K EOY could as 325k towards VIPP? No idea, but it did and as of today does. No argument that going forward NEW purchases would not. The issue is the same as every other recent Wyndham change. They are removing benefits that we were TOLD we would have. I'm very interested learning what other owners are being told. It seems like Bob & I are the only ones on TUGG impacted. Another case of bad will towards current owners

 

[Ty1on]

The point of your original post was that Wyndham had reneged on a contractual term, that you would be grandfathered to VIP Founders. Now, it seems you're not certain that the contract included anything about grandfathering. We'll wait until the end of July to see what the contract really says but if there is nothing there about grandfathering, this thread is for naught, having been based on a flawed memory.

The logic of an EOY contract counting half seems unassailable.

It's unassailable in my mind, as well. That said, just like people bought because they were coached by sales to apply VIP benefits to resale contracts and to cancel and rebook and both of those advantages are either expressly or effectively removed, a lot of people were coached to use their EOYs to achieve VIP status. I get that it's been a "glitch" that is being fixed, but I'm hard pressed to see where the company is standing by the assurances that it HAS to know its salesmen have made to buyers for years. Any other business, the company would rather take a bit of a loss than make their salesmen look dishonest. I get "if it isn't in the contract it was never said" but I have experience with countless examples where an employer stood by a salesman's promise even though it wasn't in writing. And these promises weren't one-offs by rogue salesmen. They were part of the spiel in every sales office in the nation.

 

[ddc]

I am also an affected Platinum owner. I purchased Bali Hai and Kai Eo Kai Biennial float weeks in 2012 and in 2015 purchased an additional UDI contract to become Platinum. I also have 2 PIC Plus weeks which total 259,000 points toward my VIP status. I have enjoyed the benefits of this ownership for many years. With the reduction of points toward my VIP status, I will soon have 720,000 points including 461,000 developer points and 259,000 PIC week points. Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year. Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something? I do have a call into the number that was shown on the letter I received to verify my new status. I did not receive the email.

 

[chapjim]

@chapjim So it is ok that Wyndham is changing a feature that took us to VIPP? Our EOY contracts were already included in our membership when we then moved to VIPF. Our case is similar but different. Our EOY contracts were acquired many years ago. Adding a small contract in 2021 took us to founders. Why did a 325K EOY could as 325k towards VIPP? No idea, but it did and as of today does. No argument that going forward NEW purchases would not. The issue is the same as every other recent Wyndham change. They are removing benefits that we were TOLD we would have. I'm very interested learning what other owners are being told. It seems like Bob & I are the only ones on TUGG impacted. Another case of bad will towards current owners

Please don't whine to me about Wyndham changing features! I took a big hit when Wyndham split points into developer and resale and ceased granting VIP benefits to the resale points.

We should be used to Wyndham changing features by now. We should also understand that what we are TOLD isn't worth the paper it's written on. Also, it should be clear by now that mere owners like us are not in the forefront of corporate Wyndham's thinking.

OP's initial post stated that VIPF was grandfathered according to the contract. He has backed off that statement and said he might be wrong about the grandfathering part. If there is nothing in the contract about being grandfathered to VIPF, then it is hard to say what Wyndham did was wrong. EOY contract points should count half of annual contract points.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I am also an affected Platinum owner. I purchased Bali Hai and Kai Eo Kai Biennial float weeks in 2012 and in 2015 purchased an additional UDI contract to become Platinum. I also have 2 PIC Plus weeks which total 259,000 points toward my VIP status. I have enjoyed the benefits of this ownership for many years. With the reduction of points toward my VIP status, I will soon have 720,000 points including 461,000 developer points and 259,000 PIC week points. Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year. Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something? I do have a call into the number that was shown on the letter I received to verify my new status. I did not receive the email.

That's an excellent question - will Wyndham honor the VIP valuations from the time you initially made the transaction - or will they use current points values to make that determination? If you can, please call into the contact number and make this exact inquiry if you haven't already. If you receive a response - please share it here so we can capture the stated response for others that may also be impacted. I can also make this ask to my contacts as a follow up - and will share what I learn.

 

[Mamagan]

We also received the letter over a week ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion.
If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma. Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing. Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.

 

[Sandi Bo]

It's unassailable in my mind, as well. That said, just like people bought because they were coached by sales to apply VIP benefits to resale contracts and to cancel and rebook and both of those advantages are either expressly or effectively removed, a lot of people were coached to use their EOYs to achieve VIP status. I get that it's been a "glitch" that is being fixed, but I'm hard pressed to see where the company is standing by the assurances that it HAS to know its salesmen have made to buyers for years. Any other business, the company would rather take a bit of a loss than make their salesmen look dishonest. I get "if it isn't in the contract it was never said" but I have experience with countless examples where an employer stood by a salesman's promise even though it wasn't in writing. And these promises weren't one-offs by rogue salesmen. They were part of the spiel in every sales office in the nation.

I worked on a system that printed advertising. We literally stopped the mainframe over night processing and the developers would go in and manipulate the files so that the advertising would print the way the salespeople sold it. Albeit it was likely in the customer's contract, but still the salesperson sold something we couldn't offer, and we still made it happen. Sales makes the world go round, the rest of us fix it. Companies can choose to back the promises of their salespeople or look the other way. My employer was reputable, Wyndham, hmmmm, not so much in my eyes.

 

[Rolltydr]

We also received the letter over a week ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion.
If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma. Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing. Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.

I’m having a very hard time understanding, or being remorseful, for people who have been taking advantage of a loophole and, basically, getting double the value of their contracts over the vast majority of owners. You got a helluva deal for all those years and now you’re whining that you only get the same value as the rest of us? Give me a break! Welcome to fairness, equitability, and getting what you paid for. As an owner of annual contracts, I believe Wyndham did exactly what they should have done for the vast majority of their owners! As for your car example, did a dealer ever give you a 2 for 1 deal? I didn’t think so.

 

[paxsarah]

feature

One person's feature is another person's loophole.

Gold status is now 800k points but since my purchases were from a time that allowed 700k points as Gold, I would expect that I would be downgraded to Gold (grandfathered) as I suspect there are many who were grandfathered during the point status change last year. Would you agree that I should be Gold or am I missing something?

It's specified on Page 312 in the current directory. You should be calculated according to the Legacy (grandfathered) levels, not the current levels.
"If you are a Legacy VIP by Wyndham member at a VIP tier and the legacy eligible point value of your membership decreases for any reason (e.g., because you sold or transferred one or more of your Developer-Purchased Ownership Interests), in order to maintain VIP status at the same or lower tier, you must meet the applicable VIP Point Tiers prior to November 1, 2012 or November 10, 2020 depending on your original purchase or upgrade date and eligibility at that time (see current Eligibility Requirements)."

when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter

I'm curious what the time of purchase was?

 

[Mamagan]

One person's feature is another person's loophole.


It's specified on Page 312 in the current directory. You should be calculated according to the Legacy (grandfathered) levels, not the current levels.
"If you are a Legacy VIP by Wyndham member at a VIP tier and the legacy eligible point value of your membership decreases for any reason (e.g., because you sold or transferred one or more of your Developer-Purchased Ownership Interests), in order to maintain VIP status at the same or lower tier, you must meet the applicable VIP Point Tiers prior to November 1, 2012 or November 10, 2020 depending on your original purchase or upgrade date and eligibility at that time (see current Eligibility Requirements)."


I'm curious what the time of purchase was?

 

[Mamagan]

Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP. We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status.
The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility. Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given.
The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here. If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers.
Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.

 

[paxsarah]

Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP. We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status.
The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility. Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given.
The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here. If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers.
Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.

So as far back as the 2009-10 directory, the written rules in the directory stated that biennial contracts counted as half the amount for VIP eligibility. Specifically on Page 342:

It seems that what you received was an exception to Wyndham's rules at the time. At least, I haven't found anything publicly in writing that codifies the exception that you and other owners were given. (I would once again encourage any owner subject to this adjustment to check their original contractual documents to see if there's anything in writing that made a specific exception for their account.) I would also be mad to lose it, because it was a smokin' good deal, but the reason it was a smokin' good deal is that it ran counter to Wyndham's published policy.

 

[Rolltydr]

Purchase of latest developer points that qualified us to make an additional purchase of points eligible for conversion was in 2014; conversion to Wyndham points completed in early 2015, at which time we were qualified as Gold VIP. We were told that would be the case at the 2014 sales meeting and Wyndham followed through as promised, after the conversion was finalized…Gold VIP was then listed in our Wyndham profile and it has remained that way, specifying grandfathered Gold ever since…until the notification letter of pending demotion arrived.
Original developer purchases were 2009 and 2010 followed by purchase/conversion PER RULES AT THAT TIME. We were advised in the aforementioned 2014 sales meeting that the latest developer purchase followed by the converted points would be the best way to achieve Gold status and told that later program changes would not “demote” us, as we would be thereafter grandfathered into and retain our Gold VIP status.
The letter states biennial purchases prior to Nov. 2013 are being affected. Purchases after that date are supposedly correctly calculated, but Wyndham’s fuzzy math leaves those later purchases vulnerable to possible future downward reallocation in the Wyndham world of VIP eligibility. Penalizing prior purchase transaction holders because of corporate rule changing after the fact is not ethical, no matter the excuses given.
The subset of biennial owners that are being given notice of demotion due to Wyndham’s system faults are not the villains here. If the rules at the purchase times were followed by the buyers, those rule provisions should still prevail for the grandfathered buyers.
Chastising owners for protesting being unilaterally downgraded by Wyndham management after however many years of operating within the corporate rules in effect AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE just smacks of sour grapes.

Actually, you were UPGRADED by Wyndham and now you are getting EXACTLY what you are paying for.

 

[WManning]

So as far back as the 2009-10 directory, the written rules in the directory stated that biennial contracts counted as half the amount for VIP eligibility. Specifically on Page 342:
View attachment 60113
It seems that what you received was an exception to Wyndham's rules at the time. At least, I haven't found anything publicly in writing that codifies the exception that you and other owners were given. (I would once again encourage any owner subject to this adjustment to check their original contractual documents to see if there's anything in writing that made a specific exception for their account.) I would also be mad to lose it, because it was a smokin' good deal, but the reason it was a smokin' good deal is that it ran counter to Wyndham's published policy.

Resale points also never qualified for VIP benefits. It was always very clear in directory that resale points did not qualify. A vast majority find it very convenient to believe since they beat the system for so long it was a benefit. IMHO Wyndham is cleaning up the abuse of loopholes that cost shareholder value. Limiting GC`s has worked to eliminate another abuse.

 

[ddc]

Has anyone had any further conversation with Wyndham regarding the VIP status downgrade? I had left messages several times last week and this evening I received an email from a specialist that has been assigned to my case. I have asked her to call me so we can discuss. If anyone has had conversations they are willing to share, I would appreciate any information I can get before she calls. Thank you!

 

[slabeaume]

That's an excellent question - will Wyndham honor the VIP valuations from the time you initially made the transaction - or will they use current points values to make that determination? If you can, please call into the contact number and make this exact inquiry if you haven't already. If you receive a response - please share it here so we can capture the stated response for others that may also be impacted. I can also make this ask to my contacts as a follow up - and will share what I learn.

That is what I was wondering, too. Does anyone remember what the VIP levels were back before 2013?

 

[bnoble]

I think they were the same as they were prior to the introduction of Bronze, etc. I don’t recall them changing more than that one time since I’ve been an owner.

 

[paxsarah]

That is what I was wondering, too. Does anyone remember what the VIP levels were back before 2013?

It was originally Silver (originally simply called "VIP") at 300k, Gold at 500k, and Platinum at 1 million.

 

[rickandcindy23]

We also received the letter over a week ago and have been in contact w/the team handling this debacle. Many answers have been given, many more questions remain…chief among them is the big one…why is grandfathered status not being preserved when all rules in effect at the time of achieving said status were followed to the letter and the status has been shown as grandfathered after the 2020 VIP program change when higher points were required of owners going forward to make the new status levels?
As others have said in this thread, when a company makes or recognizes a past blunder in their system, that company should ethically shoulder the responsibility of that error, make the necessary correction GOING FORWARD, but not rescind benefits or status achieved by members who achieved their status by correctly following the procedures in effect at the time of purchases/conversion.
If you purchase a vehicle and pay the stated price but the dealer finds that options included had been not priced correctly, the dealer doesn’t come and remove those options. The company learns from their error (which is incumbent on them to avoid in the first place), makes corrections going forward and doesn’t seek to get the consumer to pony up for the loss.
I have sent emails to Michael Brown (and his designated assistant in his absence) enumerating our particular case, but want others in this same burgeoning boat to know that they are not alone in feeling that fairness and corporate responsibility are the main issues in our present dilemma. Wyndham needs to reconsider their unilateral benefit stripping plan and do the right thing. Rules going forward should not impact those who followed the rules in effect when past purchases and conversions were made and completed.

I agree, but Wyndham does not take any responsibility for what they do. They just go back on their promises.

This is what makes Wyndham a bad product because you cannot count on anything. Pretty soon they will be telling owners that we can only use the resorts deeded to our points.

 

[bnoble]

Pretty soon they will be telling owners that we can only use the resorts deeded to our points.

I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific conditions there, mostly having to do with either unpaid fees or collapse of the underlying HOA/Resort.

On the other hand, the conversion document is pretty clear that anything associated with the VIP program is ephemeral at best. To wit:

Wyndham, in its sole discretion, with or without prior notice, may unilaterally expand or limit the point eligibility criteria for the VIP Program.

This gets back to something I've posted before: I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to timeshare purchases. I assume that anything they could possibly change or eliminate eventually will be changed/eliminated. That way I can never be surprised.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific conditions there, mostly having to do with either unpaid fees or collapse of the underlying HOA/Resort.

On the other hand, the conversion document is pretty clear that anything associated with the VIP program is ephemeral at best. To wit:


This gets back to something I've posted before: I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to timeshare purchases. I assume that anything they could possibly change or eliminate eventually will be changed/eliminated. That way I can never be surprised.

Yes I am angry, not for me, but for our daughter, who really counts on this income and has been renting for 15 years. I was ready to walk away from all of it, but she needs this, and we are dealing with more than anyone here knows about when it comes to Wyndham. All of the kids are on our accounts and all of them use Wyndham for some of their vacations.

They have been vindictive toward us. For one thing, they have one of our VIP Founder's accounts locked for too many guest certificates. Maybe they need to say how many are allowed, so we can work within their idea of what is too many and what is just right. No such rule, no such guidelines being bandied about. Our second account has more Platinum Points and fewer resale, and that has our daughter's attention right now. Why one account and not the other. But of course we are always expecting the other one to receive the same treatment.

But you are the voice of reason, and I do appreciate that.

 

[chapjim]

I get that you are angry at Wyndham, but this is not going to happen arbitrarily. Any CWA owner doesn't even have an underlying deed, so there is nothing to which to revert. My conversion documents are pretty clear about when and whether Wyndham can terminate the conversions, and there are some very specific..


This gets back to something I've posted before: I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to timeshare purchases. I assume that anything they could possibly change or eliminate eventually will be changed/eliminated. That way I can never be surprised.

Wyndham giveth and Wyndham taketh away. Blessed be the name of . . . Nope, I can't finish it!

[Edit: I can't cite book, chapter, and verse. It'll get deleted if do.]