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[MERGED] VIP Downgrade letter

Sandi Bo

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I understand that. The only way to prevent is by having the conversation recorded, and we know that will never happen. All we really can do is try and inform like we have been doing. With that being said, if you think that salesman telling lies and stretching the truth is acceptable behavior just because it’s not enforceable, than we are not on the same thought processes.
After all, isn't one of the primary reasons selling timeshares is so successful is because they are catching people in vacation mode, etc? Prime targets for making poor decisions.
 

HitchHiker71

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@HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.

Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.

The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay. Wait until they do that to you.

I never said it was OK, I said I could at least understand the why. And as I said previously - I already was impacted by the changes to the resale contracts for VIP owners, so I've already experienced having perks that weren't ever documented taken away as Wyndham clamps down on the loopholes. I am just relaying statements on behalf of Wyndham via the contacts I have at the company. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the statements. Take them for what you will.

That said, I always try to understand both perspectives and somehow find a middle ground - because the middle ground is almost always where the truth lies IME. It seldom lies on the fringes of either side in comparison. As I have also said in the past, I don't believe that demonizing either the person or the company is productive. I prefer to work together to make things better for everyone whenever possible. I don't see the point in repeatedly complaining about Wyndham any more than I see the point in repeatedly complaining about mega-renters. I have problems with both entities and have outlined my issues with both entities in past threads and will not re-litigate these complaints as it is not productive to do so. I will continue to attempt to establish and promote a healthy middle ground for the benefit of everyone on this forum to the best of my ability.

So if we understand the legal precedent of equity as it relates to this reported issue - what is our suggested resolution? Let's work toward solutions if at all possible.
 

Sandy VDH

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I have a convoluted ownership, it is made up of resale and a direct purchase weeks from way back in the Vacation Break days in the 1990s, that then converted to Fairfield, then Wyndham. At some point in there I then PIC'ed two weeks, converted the lot of Wyndhams into points, did an equity swap to avoid a huge SA, and purchased points from wyndham the one time, and made the whole lot of it VIPP. They tried to take away my VIPP at the time they ruled resales didn't count, but I had it written into the contract. I provided the proof, and they reinstated my VIPP.

So it is possible to have things in the contract and paperwork as long as it is written in at the time of signing up. Now VIPP could change, but that fact that I have VIPP does not.
 

HitchHiker71

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I understand that. The only way to prevent is by having the conversation recorded, and we know that will never happen. All we really can do is try and inform like we have been doing. With that being said, if you think that salesman telling lies and stretching the truth is acceptable behavior just because it’s not enforceable, than we are not on the same thought processes.

It depends on the state in which you are signing the contract. Some states allow for people to be recorded without their direct consent, other states do not allow this. If you're in a state that allows recording without consent - then you can record the entire conservation either overtly or covertly. I often put my smartphone on the table when we attend sales updates. I've had several salespeople ask me if I'm recording the conversation when I've done so. I have never actually recorded the sales update conversations to date.

I never said it was acceptable behavior - I simply said oral contracts are difficult to prove. The timeshare sales process is intentionally designed with this in mind. As someone else said, we had hopes over the past few years that the behaviors would change - I've even had several salespeople tell us that 70% of the salesforce was let go during the pandemic and those that remain are the "good ones" who treat people fairly (I'm am paraphrasing here to be clear). We've seen a few changes that are pointing in the right direction - like the cards that some resorts now hand out stating exactly what the expectations are when attending the meeting - including a 60 minute time maximum - and receiving the agreed upon gift when arriving as opposed to the gift being used to hold you hostage until after the salespeople are done with you. There are still many steps that need to be taken. My biggest ask that I post into any feedback mechanism I receive - is to make the entire sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out. Give the wristbands and parking passes at the reception desk upon check-in, and then the owner can choose whether or not to opt into attending a sales update. I realize this is a tall ask - but I will continue to push this as I think at the end of the day this is where things need to go if delivering the best customer experience is really what Wyndham wants to place emphasis on - the rest is just conversation so to speak.

Wyndham's core problem is that they are using a legacy sales model that isn't customer experience focused and customer experience driven via a real reputational model. The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still. To date they are making changes here and there but not making sea changes to the entire model. I understand the why - doing so will likely have a seriously negative impact on their revenues in the short term especially - and this goes directly against their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders as a publicly held company. I don't have all of the answers as to how to make such a large transition - but that's not going to stop me from promoting the end points where I think this all has to go long term. It's Wyndham's job to figure out how to get there - it's my job as their customer (owner) to simply tell them what I want from my ownership experience.
 

HitchHiker71

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After all, isn't one of the primary reasons selling timeshares is so successful is because they are catching people in vacation mode, etc? Prime targets for making poor decisions.

Yes, one of the articles here says exactly this:


1657640012903.png
 

rickandcindy23

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First they realigned our contracts to the same use year. We had different use years on our contracts, which allowed us to move points as we wanted and we rarely had points expire or points that needed to be moved over.

Then they took away free guest certificates as a platinum benefit, started charging for them after a certain amount, and yes, we used a lot more than the allotment.

Other changes recently affected us as well, like credit pooling dates being changed.

Wyndham is all about changing what we originally had. I don't care that resale doesn't get benefits of VIP, even though we took great advantage of it while we had it. But I do worry about what happens in the future, when further benefits are taken away. It's always changing.
 

dayooper

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It depends on the state in which you are signing the contract. Some states allow for people to be recorded without their direct consent, other states do not allow this. If you're in a state that allows recording without consent - then you can record the entire conservation either overtly or covertly. I often put my smartphone on the table when we attend sales updates. I've had several salespeople ask me if I'm recording the conversation when I've done so. I have never actually recorded the sales update conversations to date.

I never said it was acceptable behavior - I simply said oral contracts are difficult to prove. The timeshare sales process is intentionally designed with this in mind. As someone else said, we had hopes over the past few years that the behaviors would change - I've even had several salespeople tell us that 70% of the salesforce was let go during the pandemic and those that remain are the "good ones" who treat people fairly (I'm am paraphrasing here to be clear). We've seen a few changes that are pointing in the right direction - like the cards that some resorts now hand out stating exactly what the expectations are when attending the meeting - including a 60 minute time maximum - and receiving the agreed upon gift when arriving as opposed to the gift being used to hold you hostage until after the salespeople are done with you. There are still many steps that need to be taken. My biggest ask that I post into any feedback mechanism I receive - is to make the entire sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out. Give the wristbands and parking passes at the reception desk upon check-in, and then the owner can choose whether or not to opt into attending a sales update. I realize this is a tall ask - but I will continue to push this as I think at the end of the day this is where things need to go if delivering the best customer experience is really what Wyndham wants to place emphasis on - the rest is just conversation so to speak.

Wyndham's core problem is that they are using a legacy sales model that isn't customer experience focused and customer experience driven via a real reputational model. The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still. To date they are making changes here and there but not making sea changes to the entire model. I understand the why - doing so will likely have a seriously negative impact on their revenues in the short term especially - and this goes directly against their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders as a publicly held company. I don't have all of the answers as to how to make such a large transition - but that's not going to stop me from promoting the end points where I think this all has to go long term. It's Wyndham's job to figure out how to get there - it's my job as their customer (owner) to simply tell them what I want from my ownership experience.

Good reply! Everything in here I agree with. I just don’t believe that we should just brush aside the actions of salesmen here as “it’s just what they do.”
 

Rolltydr

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@HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.

Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.

The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay. Wait until they do that to you.
We bought our first Developer contract in 2015, 450k points getting us to Silver VIP, which was 400k at that time. We enjoyed cancel and rebook, frequent VIP unit upgrades (often combined with cancel and rebook), and VIP benefits for all resale points after purchasing those contracts. Those were NEVER permanent benefits that were promised to us. They were loopholes in Wyndham’s processes which we were able to take advantage of. Once those loopholes were closed, we adjusted to the new realities and we continue to use and enjoy our Wyndham timeshares. We still occasionally get the VIP room upgrades, just not nearly as often. I guess I could blame Wyndham for closing loopholes that benefitted the few at the expense of the majority but that seems shortsighted. I was never paying for those things since they were not part of the VIP benefits. I was getting something for nothing, as was everyone else in a similar situation. Wyndham closed those loopholes for the benefit of the majority of their owners. That is good business, regardless of the size of the company.

Now, their IT system sucks and it would be to the benefit of ALL the owners if they would fix it. I’m also bothered by the comments from @HitchHiker71 that they don’t seem to be as interested in working with him and @Richelle as they have in the past to correct some problems and implement suggested system improvements. So, there are many ways in which Wyndham can improve the owner experience. Closing loopholes is one of them, but definitely not the only one.
 

slabeaume

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I've expected this to happen for many years now. I really can't believe it took them this long to find their "mistake". I took advantage of it as much as I could, knowing some day it was probably going to end. My questions now are: how many extra points are they compensating us with and since we're past the "new" time for depositing points into the pool, can we still do it and until when?
 

paxsarah

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The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.
I feel like we're seeing this in the most recent responses people have reported getting when requesting to be added to the "do not sell/gift" list. Responses used to come from legal and confirmed the addition to the list. Now, the responses come from owner care (I think) and simply say that there is no such "do not sell" list and that owners may be asked to attend, and that the updates are optional. Obviously phone sales may be subject to do not call laws, hence legal's involvement, whereas onsite "updates" are not - and I would guess sales had a hand in the new confirmation language.
 

rickandcindy23

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We bought in 2007. Promises were made, and we have the original documentation and a blue Wyndham/ Fairfield folder with all VIP Platinum benefits listed on it. I kept it. Unlimited guest certificates (FREE) and all of our other benefits pre-printed on a folder, which is better than a change of a resort directory on a webiste. That resort directory can be changed any time.

Never were we promised resale would get VIP, never did our salesperson tell us that. I found that out on TUG. Yep. TUG members were open and forthright about Wyndham benefits back then.

But even after guest certificates were limited to so many per million, the sales' team at Bali Hai were still saying to buyers, "You get unlimited free guest certificates." I corrected our salesperson. I told him that was absolutely a lie. We went to a presentation and heard this claim around us, and our salesperson told us that as well. They were working hard to convert Bali Hai and other PAHIO owners to Wyndham.

It's so disgusting, these sales presentations. You need a shower after going to those sleazy things with Wyndham. We are on the "do not ask us to attend," and if they did make a mistake and ask us, I would be loud in a room like the one at Bali Hai. I would let them know how really disgusting it is that they change benefits.

Just to be fair, we did attend a presentation with Marriott that was just as sleazy. Back when Dave M. was the moderator on the Marriott forum, I asked if what the salesperson said was true, and he said absolutely not.
 

bnoble

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The sales and marketing division has way too much sway within the company still.
That's because everything else is a cost center.

The timeshare sales process is not particularly different from most anything else, except in a matter of degree. I can think of dozens and dozens of times when someone selling me something either didn't mention an obvious limitation, embellished what was possible, or allowed me to maintain an inaccurate understanding of a product in its favor. While commerce doesn't have to be an adversarial process, it nearly always is.

My "business" is no different: Michigan will tell you why getting a degree is critical, and worth every penny of the quarter million dollars you will spend on tuition, and why Michigan is the best value in the US. I spend a lot of time at student recruiting events telling students that it doesn't matter where they go to school, as long as it feels like a good fit. The Admissions office still invites me to go, but they also nearly panic every time I have the microphone.
 
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Ty1on

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I've expected this to happen for many years now. I really can't believe it took them this long to find their "mistake". I took advantage of it as much as I could, knowing some day it was probably going to end. My questions now are: how many extra points are they compensating us with and since we're past the "new" time for depositing points into the pool, can we still do it and until when?

They knew about it. Correcting it would have been an expensive process for small benefit to the company. Investing in an entirely new back-end system allows them to make this change at the same time.
 

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@HitchHiker71 But if you are given a status and enjoy that status for years, and Wyndham turns the tides, then it's very obvious that Wyndham recognized the very status you enjoyed but took it away.

Now the big company takes an owner down a notch because of a change in policy or a realization that this was done incorrectly, and that is just not right.

The mantra on TUG is that everything Wyndham does is okay. Wait until they do that to you.
Not all are policy changes but we're enfocement of existing benefits. Like I said in a earlier post "breaking the speed limit daily doesn't make it legal". Wyndham is just eliminating alot of loopholes and abuse of the system. These changes help a majority of owners and Wyndham also benefits. It eliminates some rental competition and creates free inventory from mega renters that throw up the white flag and exit via Ovations. This helps raise profits which enhances shareholder value.
 

HitchHiker71

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Enough to make it so that people don't even bother to shoot for VIP. I personally was too scared to PIC to Gold before November 2020 because I felt like sometime down the road Wyndham will say that my PICs no longer count towards status because they changed their exchange affilliation or something. That's the exact kind of BS that I can totally see Wyndham try and pull. I remember I got the idea because @HitchHiker71 did just that and showed how it would pay for itself pretty quickly, but I have really low risk tolerance so I NOPED out. I instead used the money to replace my husband's car sooner than I normally would so we could drive to further locations.

I agree it was a calculated risk on my part. During many a sales updates they have used the FOMO sales tactic on me saying that my PIC contracts are going to eventually be disqualified, or Wyndham may change the rules, or the PIC contracts aren't transfer eligible to my progeny, and therefore I should buy the 508k block of points instead - and points will only get more expensive in the future vs buying them now. If/when that occurs I will reevaluate how best to proceed - but I'm not in the habit of making decisions based upon what might or might not happen at some future point in time. I'm four years into my ownership as of July 2022 and still going strong on the PIC Plus front. Still on track to realize my ROI within roughly ten years even with dropping down from VIPP to VIPG after my bonus point contract expired in Sept 2020. Sure I'd love to get back up to VIPP for the 50% discount window benefit - but I just cannot justify purchasing 400k more points to do so - and all of the loopholes are now closed that allowed previous owners to upgrade without breaking the bank so to speak.
 

HitchHiker71

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It is interesting that PIC was mentioned .. I wonder if anyone here with PIC points is affected. BTW my wait for an answer from Wyndham about what sales promised in 2021 is not up until middle of this week.
Bob

Based upon what we have learned - I would surmise that this issue would potentially occur for owners that have enrolled biennial PIC plus contracts prior to November 2013. Not everyone who did so falls into this affected bucket - but some do - so if you fall into this bucket - you may be impacted.
 

HitchHiker71

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I feel like we're seeing this in the most recent responses people have reported getting when requesting to be added to the "do not sell/gift" list. Responses used to come from legal and confirmed the addition to the list. Now, the responses come from owner care (I think) and simply say that there is no such "do not sell" list and that owners may be asked to attend, and that the updates are optional. Obviously phone sales may be subject to do not call laws, hence legal's involvement, whereas onsite "updates" are not - and I would guess sales had a hand in the new confirmation language.

Yes, I've seen the same updated verbiage posted on the FB groups as well. I suspect it's because that donotcall@wyn.com was a relative unknown until it started getting socialized on the FB groups and it caught someone's attention within Wyndham that a ton of owners are now opting out via that email address, so Wyndham is adjusting the verbiage to minimize the negative impact to their sales and marketing division. Again, I get the why - it is likely starting to negatively impact their bottom line and interfere with their fiduciary duties toward their shareholders. I also think that the fact that so many owners are signing up to opt-out of sales updates - should tell Wyndham something important - make the sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out. If Wyndham truly values their customer/owner experience - this is what the company needs to do. Wyndham cannot continue to sell a product using deceptive sales practices and back of the napkin mathematics that encourage an impulse purchase of tens of thousands of dollars as the basis of the start of any good customer relationship, while claiming to be an ethical company all along - that is being duplicitous without a doubt.
 
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HitchHiker71

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That's because everything else is a cost center.

The timeshare sales process is not particularly different from most anything else, except in a matter of degree. I can think of dozens and dozens of times when someone selling me something either didn't mention an obvious limitation, embellished what was possible, or allowed me to maintain an inaccurate understanding of a product in its favor. While commerce doesn't have to be an adversarial process, it nearly always is.

My "business" is no different: Michigan will tell you why getting a degree is critical, and worth every penny of the quarter million dollars you will spend on tuition, and why Michigan is the best value in the US. I spend a lot of time at student recruiting events telling students that it doesn't matter where they go to school, as long as it feels like a good fit. The Admissions office still invites me to go, but they also nearly panic every time I have the microphone.

I agree - we do it even at the software company I work at. When we're in sales mode - we emphasize what we do well and minimize or avoid talking about our pain points where we don't do well. Unless the customer is intelligent enough to ask about those weak points - we aren't going to volunteer them until after the deal closes. Then, we hold Q&A sessions after product training, along with design review sessions, and then we speak openly about the pain points and limitations. Oftentimes we are asked why we didn't speak about these pain points prior, well, because we'd be less likely to make the sale, and because these pain points exist with almost all products in the marketplace really (there is no magic bullet). In this respect, I agree it's somewhat adversarial regardless of the industry in scope - though perhaps to a lesser degree when compared to the timeshare industry (used car salesmen come to mind as a close equal though).

That said, at least in my industry vertical (software sales and service), with the move of everything to the cloud/SaaS - most organizations are moving to a success management business model. This is because as the customer base stops buying perpetual software licensing for premise based software installations and instead moves to purchasing SaaS subscriptions for cloud-based solutions - success management principles become much more important and net new software sales becomes less important. This is because once someone signs up for a subscription - the success management teams become responsible for retention, upsell and cross-sell activities - and therefore post-sale relationship management and customer experience become the priority. As the customer base converts over to subscriptions - eventually net new sales becomes a very small part of the overall business model - and success management becomes the primary focus area. Point being - success management principles are designed to ensure ongoing CSAT post-sale over the long term. It's all about building trust over the long term with each customer. It's not about selling the customer something via the pre-sales and sales teams and then throwing the sale over the fence into support/post-sales teams. It's about ensuring the customer is happy throughout the entire pre-sales, sales, and post-sale process persistently. This is not the way Wyndham works today - as is evidenced by how sales behaves. They don't care about the methods used to sell their product - once they have their hooks into you - they simply disappear (as many people can attest to - the salesperson disappears after the initial sale) - and then the post-sale customer service teams are left to pick up the pieces. It is a broken business model in today's world. Companies that realize this and adapt and move toward a success management model will stay around - most companies that don't adapt will die on the vine in comparison - because their competition is building trusted advisory type relationships over the long term - and no sales tactics can beat out a long term trusted relationship model. The newer automotive manufacturers like Tesla, Lucid, Rivian, etc., the pure play BEVS - are using a success management model. The traditional auto manufacturers are for the most part still relying on the old broken traditional dealer based sales model in comparison. We are watching this transition play out across various different industries at present. It is interesting to watch.

Which brings me to another thought that I don't often bring up, but why not. :cool: If we really expect Wyndham to replace the retail timeshare revenue stream with something else - what do we expect that revenue stream to be? My honest answer is Extra Holidays - direct corporate timeshare rentals. Why is Wyndham making the changes we're all witnessing? Because they recognize they need to build new income streams to replace the age old retail timeshare sales revenue stream over time. If that means that Wyndham has to become the primary rental arm - well then we have to decide what we really want as owners. If we want opt-in only timeshare sales, then we need to accept that Wyndham needs to become the renter of their timeshare resorts in order to compensate for the revenue losses tied to the current opt-out timeshare sales model. We cannot have it both ways. There are other options - such as timeshare leases as opposed to perpetual ownerships, which I think is also going to become more prevalent, so the revenue replacements will utilize a multi-pronged approach - but my prognostication is that Wyndham will eventually eliminate the vast majority of owner-based rentals and absorb this revenue directly. Again, Wyndham has a primary fiduciary responsibility to it's shareholders to generate revenue and shareholder profits. Is this a controversial conclusion on my part? Perhaps - but that's what I see happening long term - a question of when not if.

EDIT: One last comment while I'm on a roll. Even the CSAT emails are sales driven. The very opening question in the "Tell us about your stay at..." emails has nothing to do with the actual stay, screenshot below for reference:

1657725540176.png


What does my likelihood of recommending Wyndham to a friend have to do with my stay at OTA? The answer in my view, is nothing. This is a sales driven inquiry that has little to do with customer satisfaction specific to my stay at OTA, and just another example of how sales driven the entire Wyndham enterprise still is. This is what needs to change.
 

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bnoble

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make the sales update process opt-in as opposed to opt-out.
It already is opt-in, but it takes conscious effort to remember that in the conversation with the body snatcher.

For example, at my most recent check-in at Smuggs: Wyndham owners and RCI inbounds were sent directly to the "concierge" not the regular Smugglers Notch staff. The former handled check-in and the tour invitation all in the same conversation. Everything was pleasant and cordial, lots of good resort and area information, and then the hammer: "We set aside 11:30AM tomorrow for your update. If that doesn't work for you we can pick another time." Oh, I won't be attending. "Are you sure?" Quite firmly: Yes, I'm sure. I am not going to attend and I never do; time on vacation is too important.

At this point, I'll give the body snatcher credit in that she looked genuinely and empathetically sad that I had such a negative impression of the process. That was well done.

I guess depending on your perspective, pre-scheduling it makes it opt-out. But, no one physically takes me to the tour; I'd have to get there of my own free will. I won't ever do that. So in that sense, it is always opt-in.

Edited to add: thinking about it, I don't particularly begrudge the body snatchers. They have a job to do and a living to make, and this is one way to do it. As long as the conversation remains cordial and respectful, fine. I can even abide by the infrequent lie ("Oh, it's not a sales meeting") but that's pushing it.
 
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bnoble

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One way to help make the pre-tour process easier is to remember: these people are not your friends, and you do not owe them anything. You are free to ignore any uncomfortable feelings that might come up when you tell them you are not going on the tour. Those feelings are normal for most any human (it is how we are wired) but that doesn't mean you have to own them or act on them. As one of my mentors puts it: I am responsible for my second thought and my first action. The first thought is not my problem.

Here's another example of what I mean: There are many people who have my phone number and can call me for support at any time. I don't know the full set of those people--they don't always give me theirs, and they can also share mine with others. So if an unknown number comes up on my cell, I will usually answer it in case it is one of them and they need something. That means I end up answering a bunch of telemarketer calls, just in case. As soon as I know that's what I have, I hang up. I don't even bother saying anything. I don't owe that telemarketer anything, and they have no claim on my time. Any bad feelings that accompany that are observed and allowed to pass on by.

This takes a little bit of practice, and I've found that having a meditation practice makes it easier to do. But, having it in my arsenal makes these kinds of interactions much much easier.
 
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Why not ask Wyndham to have resale points grandfathered in and be used with VIP benefits? Wyndham is tring to eliminate all loopholes that existed but we're not a listed benefit. It seems to me a lot of VIP owners want themselves excluded if it affects their situation. Someone in a earlier post commented that owners should feel lucky they were able to recieve more then what was listed as a benefit. Just maybe after Wyndham corrects all the system loopholes its possible they might try to fix the online user experiance! :unsure:

If there have been years or decades of confusion revolving resale points, and Wyndham has been honoring resale, absolutely! It is one thing for salesmen to lie and dupe an owner, and another thing when Wyndham agrees that a VIP level has been established.

Let's say Target is offering a $25 Starbucks gift card on orders of $500+ on Black Friday. Turns out the promo is working for $200 orders, the employees are all pushing it, a few stores are even putting up signage. Do you really want to hear years later, that Target goofed, that those giftcards need to be returned? In the business world you eat your own mistakes, and make sure it doesn't happen again.
 

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Actually we haven't seen any actual proof that the specific VIP tier was written into the contract. I'd like to see proof - because every contract I've ever read and reviewed says the exact opposite in the fine print - that the entire VIP program is subject to change at any time - up to and including termination of the program in entirety.
I will need to wait until home last week in July to dig out the contract and see what was written. Something was written but I worry it was not as strong as I wanted. My wife think se remembers grandfather but it may have been weaker such as member will become Founders.

Bob
 

chapjim

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I will need to wait until home last week in July to dig out the contract and see what was written. Something was written but I worry it was not as strong as I wanted. My wife think se remembers grandfather but it may have been weaker such as member will become Founders.

Bob

So this entire thread may have been started with an erroneous or invalid premise.
 

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HitchHiker71

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It already is opt-in, but it takes conscious effort to remember that in the conversation with the body snatcher.

For example, at my most recent check-in at Smuggs: Wyndham owners and RCI inbounds were sent directly to the "concierge" not the regular Smugglers Notch staff. The former handled check-in and the tour invitation all in the same conversation. Everything was pleasant and cordial, lots of good resort and area information, and then the hammer: "We set aside 11:30AM tomorrow for your update. If that doesn't work for you we can pick another time." Oh, I won't be attending. "Are you sure?" Quite firmly: Yes, I'm sure. I am not going to attend and I never do; time on vacation is too important.

At this point, I'll give the body snatcher credit in that she looked genuinely and empathetically sad that I had such a negative impression of the process. That was well done.

I guess depending on your perspective, pre-scheduling it makes it opt-out. But, no one physically takes me to the tour; I'd have to get there of my own free will. I won't ever do that. So in that sense, it is always opt-in.

Edited to add: thinking about it, I don't particularly begrudge the body snatchers. They have a job to do and a living to make, and this is one way to do it. As long as the conversation remains cordial and respectful, fine. I can even abide by the infrequent lie ("Oh, it's not a sales meeting") but that's pushing it.

I disagree that it's opt-in today. It certainly doesn't make the owner/customer feel as though it's opt-in. It's opt-in in name only. It's really a high pressure opt-in system - which to me is really opt-out at the end of the day. The entire system was built based upon psychological data that shows that the majority of people have difficulty saying no repeatedly and have a tendency to want to believe and trust other people. In other words, the entire sales model leveraged by the timeshare industry was and is intentionally designed to manipulate people's tendencies. Sure there are those like me, that can tolerate and manage these manipulative and deceptive models because I've taught myself about them over time. But most people aren't like me, so I've learned in this life. My personality type according to Myers-Briggs is 3% of the population. I'm an oddball by definition. :cool:

That said - I don't blame the body snatchers either. They are in it to win it so to speak - and they are largely commission based and just doing whatever they can to earn money to support their families just like everyone else. I place responsibility on the company that created the system and that teaches these people how to deploy and employ deceptive sales practices - and make no mistake - Wyndham may practice cognitive dissonance on this topic - but they are very well aware of what goes on. They employ covert recording sessions regularly to ensure things don't spin out of control - while honing their practices which push boundaries to sell the product. This includes the concierge desk. If Wyndham really want to offer better owner experiences and customer service - they will endorse an opt-out based system - and staff the concierge desks with employees that are actually from customer service. The concierge desk is staffed entirely by the marketing team (part of the sales and marketing division), therefore their primary mission is to market the sales updates and get owners and renters to attend the sales updates. Their primary mission is not to provide customer service. Some do a better job of customer service than others without a doubt - but if customer service was job one at Wyndham - the concierge desks would be staffed primarily by customer service personnel - and if you wanted to opt-in - the customer service concierge would then have you speak to someone else from the marketing division regarding attending a sales update. Again - I realize this is a very tall ask - but this has been and will continue to be my ask whenever I have the opportunity to provide feedback on this particular topic.
 
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