Marriott's new forum to discuss the 2009 changes.

[Steve A]

What I resented the most is that they think that we are stupid with their less is more, war is peace manner of presentation.

 

[Dean]

No of course not. There is still a significant value in points as LAX Mom is showing. It appears the best deal is in the 5 night stay.

That's because you're comparing to something that was a poor value under the old system. If you do per night points, the increase for a typical week is still significant and doubly so since many of those resorts that made the most sense under the old system make up the new higher cat 8.

 

[potchak]

I don't think I am so much upset by the changes to the MRP program as much as I am upset about the Devaluation of my timeshare. I, like Zac495 was sold "trade in your timeshare 2 yrs, and credit card purchases will get you 7 nights and airfare to Europe and a car". Well, this is no longer the case. At best, it will take me 3 yrs and credit card purchases to get the same week at 110K points. I think what MVCI owners are trying to point out is the fact that we feel that we were baited and switched to a different product or at least a much devalued one. If they increase the amount of points we get for our units (especially considering the high MF's anymore) it might make it worth it to us to trade for points. However, if they don't, I don't see why we would trade the units in for points anymore. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Latravel]

I completely see what you are saying. In the presentation, they did use the trade for points option as a major selling point.

BUT, If I remember what they said in the presentation, they never promised me I would forever stay in a category 7 hotel for 7 nights for however long I owned my timeshare. We can still trade in our timeshare for points to be used for 7 nights but they won't be a category 7. I think it's an unreasonable expectation that my points or "money" would buy me the same fixed amount of hotel stays at the same fixed quality forever. Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed. Still, I don't like it at all.

When booking my trip for Italy using points, I was SHOCKED by the cost of the Marriott Capri that I booked (of course I reserved with points). It was 650euro or about $845per night! That is $5915 per week. A week at Shadow Ridge would not rent that much. Trading in my Shadow Ridge for 2 weeks would not make rent for even close to that much, so I can see why they changed the point requirements.

 

[mas]

...When booking my trip for Italy using points, I was SHOCKED by the cost of the Marriott Capri that I booked (of course I reserved with points). It was 650euro or about $845per night! That is $5915 per week. A week at Shadow Ridge would not rent that much. Trading in my Shadow Ridge for 2 weeks would not make rent for even close to that much, so I can see why they changed the point requirements.

Just because they charge $845/nite doesn't mean it's worth anywhere close to that. I doubt there are too many people actually paying that rate, if any, who are not on an expense account.

 

[rsackett]

I...BUT, If I remember what they said in the presentation, they never promised me I would forever stay in a category 7 hotel for 7 nights for however long I owned my timeshare. We can still trade in our timeshare for points to be used for 7 nights but they won't be a category 7. I think it's an unreasonable expectation that my points or "money" would buy me the same fixed amount of hotel stays at the same fixed quality forever. Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed. ...

I bought resale so I can not trade for points.

BUT, I do think that if I had bought from Marriott I would be very upset. When you trade your timeshare for points, you are not buying points. You are giving up a two bedroom with full kitchen, in a prime area of Marriott quality, in high season, for SEVEN nights! What they now will give you in exchange is seven nights in a hotel room at Fairfield Inn.

Look up what they rent your seven nights for vs what staying in that Fairfield would cost. I bet it is not a fair exchange.

Ray

 

[Latravel]

I have to beg to differ. A night in a very high end hotel in Europe is costing hundreds of dollars and people do pay those rates. If you don't want to pay those rates, there are other levels of hotels that cost less. But if you want to stay in a category 7 hotel, yes, they cost a lot of money! If they weren't filling up those rooms, they wouldn't charge as much so, obviously, someone is paying those high rates.

You don't have to look far - a night in Manhattan, NY will cost you $500-600 a night, which is mind boggling to me but people pay those rates everyday. Those rooms were going for $200-250 per night in 2000/2001 when I was traveling for work.

Should I expect to pay the same number of points for those hotels now as I did in 2000/2001 even though the cost has gone up?

Don't get me wrong, I really dislike the changes but after seeing the cost of hotel rooms lately, I can see why they made the changes.

 

[Dean]

Things eventually cost more, they are never fixed. Still, I don't like it at all.

From a cost standpoint or at least rack rates, the timeshares should escalate as much or more than most hotels so it should be a wash at worst. What's likely getting us is the percentage of units that go unrented from the MVCI standpoint. Otherwise it's simply a shifting of funds, essentially a tax on those that use the system. Some of the cash equivalent options like air may cost Marrriott more going forward but it's interesting that's the one portion that doesn't seem to have gone up. Ultimately their goal is that you'll deplete your points faster and then stay on cash that extra night here and there, they do add up to their bottom line.

I have to beg to differ. A night in a very high end hotel in Europe is costing hundreds of dollars and people do pay those rates.

And IMO, this tied in to the combo awards is the only way to generate a value to the system. If you use it that way AND you can get what you need, then there is some value. The entire system could be abolished tomorrow. It's simply too risky and too low a return to make it reasonable to put much or any value on it worth paying for. If it's essentially free and you can still use it and get value, it's gravy and that's all one should look at it as in the timeshare context.

 

[Latravel]

This just hit me as i'm driving home (maybe i'm slow). If the cost of hotels are not fixed and go up year by year, then the same can be said for the units they receive from owners to rent (or whatever). The units we turn in for points are eventually rented out to others, so, using the same logic, those units should cost more year by year, just like hotels. Why would Marriott fix the amount it costs them (in terms of points) to have our units, yet charge others more when they rent those units? No, it doesn't work this way.

The value of our units will also go up year to year so the amount of points Marriott should give us to have those units should go up as well. If not, no one will turn in their units for points (because it wouldn't be worth it) and eventually, Marriott would have nulllified their main selling point. It doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to a sales presentation in December and i'll ask them some questions about value. I'm curious how they will respond.

 

[Dean]

This just hit me as i'm driving home (maybe i'm slow). If the cost of hotels are not fixed and go up year by year, then the same can be said for the units they receive from owners to rent (or whatever). The units we turn in for points are eventually rented out to others, so, using the same logic, those units should cost more year by year, just like hotels. Why would Marriott fix the amount it costs them (in terms of points) to have our units, yet charge others more when they rent those units? No, it doesn't work this way.

The value of our units will also go up year to year so the amount of points Marriott should give us to have those units should go up as well. If not, no one will turn in their units for points (because it wouldn't be worth it) and eventually, Marriott would have nulllified their main selling point. It doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to a sales presentation in December and i'll ask them some questions about value. I'm curious how they will respond.

Didn't I just say that about MVCI unit values increasing as well, LOL. If they escalate the points charts to devalue points, they should increase the points given if you trade for points. IF it were fairly static, it shouldn't matter.

 

[TJCNewYork]

Here's an upbeat article from Ric Garrido of Loyalty Traveler about Marriott's March 24th Press Release announcing a new 3 for 2 promotion*: Hooray for Marriott Rewards

The 3 for 2 schedule discounts the points needed to redeem nights at a Marriott resort to 2008 levels. It's not exactly "grandfathering" but a temporary roll-back:

* 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 4 Resorts = 40,000 points
* 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 5 Resorts = 50,000 points
* 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 6 Resorts = 60,000 points
* 3 for 2 Resort Redemption Special at participating Category 7 Resorts = 70,000 points

The upside is that Marriott Marketing appears to be responding to comments received from Marriott Rewards Elite members as well as MVCI owners. Comments posted on Flyertalk.com to Marriott Concierge suggest a warm reception to this special promotion and a 'start' to restoring confidence recognizing that the premature rollout of the 2009 Program, increased rates and point redemption levels resulted in sticker shock, unprecedented customer dissatisfaction to the devaluation of points and an exodus to competitors. The downside is the dearth of hotels that are actually participating - 55 in all selected from Category 4 to 7 hotels**. Only 18 resorts are in the US located in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Kentucky and Nevada ranging from Category 5 to 7. The only Category 4 resorts listed are in Asia, Europe and the Middle East. Interestingly, several Marriott associates called at Marriott Reservations are not aware of the promotion and do not have a Corporate Promotion Code.

Loyalty Traveler's Ric Garrido suggests that the 3 for 2 promotion is an "olive branch after the outcry over the 2009 changes to the Rewards free night redemption table changes making almost all hotel awards more costly in points in 2009." What do you think? Does the special promotion work for you?

* 3 for 2 Special Offer

** Participating Resort Locations

 

[SDKath]

Do you really think this is responding to people's thoughtful comments on further devaluation of points or is Marriott just trying hard to fill empty hotel rooms (like just about every other hotel chain right now)?

Starwood is running 20-50% off nights specials daily as well as special lowered SPs required to stay in hotels. My week in Greece just got 20,000 SPs cheaper thanks to their new promo.

I think they are just responding to the generally slow economy and the lack of tourists to fill rooms. It has little to do with a "start to turning around" their continued devaluation of benefits. When the hotels fill again, they will revert to the devaluation model again in a heart beat. Trust me.

Katherine

 

[TJCNewYork]

Do you really think this is responding to people's thoughtful comments on further devaluation of points or is Marriott just trying hard to fill empty hotel rooms (like just about every other hotel chain right now)?

Starwood is running 20-50% off nights specials daily as well as special lowered SPs required to stay in hotels. My week in Greece just got 20,000 SPs cheaper thanks to their new promo.

I think they are just responding to the generally slow economy and the lack of tourists to fill rooms. It has little to do with a "start to turning around" their continued devaluation of benefits. When the hotels fill again, they will revert to the devaluation model again in a heart beat. Trust me.

Katherine

As I said on Marriott Insiders, it's an "olive," not an "olive branch". The other major point stated on Insiders is that Marriott already learned earlier that 'rolling-back' risks litigation.* Yes, I do think Marriott has the capacity to listen and understands the business case to compel a response. The 3 for 2 resort special promotion is not an attempt to "grandfather benefits" as many had proposed and hoped for; it is one of many promotions to ease the sting of "sticker shock" that has gripped the timeshare community as well as the business travel community in general.

As far as SP, it's truly excellent that Starwood is responding and staving off defection. The gap between MR membership/booking and SP is huge.** Marriott Rewards is covering much larger ground from brand integration to discounting. For example, Marriott has successfully integrated Vacation Club resorts. Several MVC resorts are available for point redemption as well as Pointsavers. So, in addition to owner rates on villa rentals, MVC owners have even more options.

Most definitely, 3 for 2 is a 'start' to restore Marriott Elite confidence and much better than no response at all. But, I am not speaking for myself as a beneficiary of the 3 for 2, but rather reflecting the warm reception on Flyertalk when Marriott Concierge leaked the news prior to the formal announcement March 24.

* The Truth About Frequent Traveler Programs

**

 

[thinze3]

I saw this offer last week and thought that it was nothing more than an offer to get something rather than nothing for some of Marriott's hotel vacancies.