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Marriott Manor Club platinum sells for $209

timeos2

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If these don't sell then little can

The cost of timeshares now - even one of the greats such as Manor Club - isn't the basically non-existent purchase price - it's the annual fees which in many cases are approaching what was once the purchase price but comes due every year! The value is not as an asset to be sold but the the use & enjoyment of the resort - provided the annual fee and resort quality, location & amenities make it a value. Manor Club has those in spades but still has no value for purchase.

It is time that all owners realize what has occurred and that it isn't going to change anytime soon. It often seems for every timeshare given away two more offers replace it.

Buying a retail timeshare for thousands in the past and now days tens of thousands makes zero sense. You can almost pick your area, resort and use time from free offers - if you will take on those annual fees. It can still be a good deal with the right resort but the days of inexpensive trades, low fees and renting to recover fees are basically history in most cases. Yes a few weeks per year such as Holidays MAY rent or trade great even today but for most seasonal resorts there are 40+ weeks that you almost can't give away. It's better but still a problem in less seasonal areas but in almost no cases is there a week or resort worth more than $5000 - and the majority are nearing zero resale value as noted above.

Take it to use or don't take it as anything else planned will likely end up burning you badly.
 

bogey21

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About 10 years ago when I divested my "chain" TS Weeks one of the things I considered were the escalating MFs. Over time these add up. I then went the "Independent" route. One of my rules of thumb was not to buy a Week where the MF was more than $400 +/-. The size of the annual MF was important to me. I might add that the only Week I still own is a 2 bdrm/2 bath Colorado ski week (Orofino at Straight Creek) owned in my Son's name where the 2010 MF was $390. IMO MFs are worth a long hard look.

George
 

EKniager

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And of course platinum lockoffs have the greatest value as the MF's get amortized over 14 days instead of 7! :whoopie: :whoopie:
 

timeos2

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And of course platinum lockoffs have the greatest value as the MF's get amortized over 14 days instead of 7! :whoopie: :whoopie:

Unfortunately for use the lockoff's are a poor imitation of the real Manor Club original buildings. For trade they do get up to two weeks but usually not prie time or 2 br units so if you're ok with a 1 br trade then it's a deal.
 

EKniager

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My point was, for my two person family, it is better to pay approximately $71 per night than $142 per night (MF's of ~$1,000 divided by 14 versus 7.) regardless of resort because the comparison is essentially against the same location. Maybe the Sequel building in Williamsburg is an exception and not as charming but I did not buy timeshares to stay in the room.

Additionally, trading an Aruba SC lockoff "studio" for a full two bedroom Williamsburg (Sequel or not) unit over Memorial Day week provides greater return on my investment than getting stuck with an empty bedroom which would be the case at Myrtle Beach or any of the 8 non-lockoff HHI Vacationclub resorts. Sure I could invite friends, but it's nice to take vacation alone too.
 

Big Matt

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This point is so basic, but almost nobody wants to admit it. Once you buy a timeshare it is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. Most are worthless now as resale assets.

I also have no clue why anyone would buy a timeshare for $30-60k in places like Hawaii. You can ALWAYS rent one for $2000-3000 per week on the high end. The math just doesn't make sense to me. Of course people with 50+ million or more throw things off, but there aren't a ton of them out there buying timeshares.

The cost of timeshares now - even one of the greats such as Manor Club - isn't the basically non-existent purchase price - it's the annual fees which in many cases are approaching what was once the purchase price but comes due every year! The value is not as an asset to be sold but the the use & enjoyment of the resort - provided the annual fee and resort quality, location & amenities make it a value. Manor Club has those in spades but still has no value for purchase.

It is time that all owners realize what has occurred and that it isn't going to change anytime soon. It often seems for every timeshare given away two more offers replace it.

Buying a retail timeshare for thousands in the past and now days tens of thousands makes zero sense. You can almost pick your area, resort and use time from free offers - if you will take on those annual fees. It can still be a good deal with the right resort but the days of inexpensive trades, low fees and renting to recover fees are basically history in most cases. Yes a few weeks per year such as Holidays MAY rent or trade great even today but for most seasonal resorts there are 40+ weeks that you almost can't give away. It's better but still a problem in less seasonal areas but in almost no cases is there a week or resort worth more than $5000 - and the majority are nearing zero resale value as noted above.

Take it to use or don't take it as anything else planned will likely end up burning you badly.
 
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kjd

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We'll see a lot more selling at low prices. I've gotten several calls or mailings lately that use the theme "Sell your timeshare and get out from paying maintenance fees". That seems to be the direction of the market, especially when you see these ridiculously low prices. The question of whether Marriott will ROFR someone's unit becomes a joke when even Marriott won't ROFR a unit that sells at these low prices. Marriott has also depressed resale prices by not allowing resales to enroll in the DC program.

Math does have something to do with a purchaser's decision but it is not the only factor. When the current supply of units to be dumped is large the prices will be low. People will pay higher prices when they are unable to rent what they want. For years, all that these knuckle-headed timeshare companies did was overbuild. Marriott included. While it's encouraging that Marriott now says that they are not going ahead with new projects it's still a double whammy out there. The economy is also bad and a lot of people are walking away from debt. At any price to do it. Even by giving a timeshare away.

We all know that markets will correct. The correction of the timeshare market will take some time. Probably, ten to fifteen years IMO. It could be less if the economy recovers and the timeshare companies are somehow able to lower the supply of units. If that happens then you will see people laying out big bucks for Hawaii and other locations that won't be readily available to them. In the meantime we should enjoy the timeshares we have and not worry too much about what their current value is. If you purchased your timeshare as an investment, you made a mistake. If you purchase it to use it, enjoy it.
 
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KathyPet

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Well there is a huge difference between regarding your timeshare as a investment and having the value drop to virtually nothing. I think that we purchased MMC with the idea that if we could sell it at some point for half of what we paid we would be happy campers considering the years of usage we got out of it. I don't think that is a unreasonable expectation. $209.00 is not half or even 10% of what we paid.
 

EKniager

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Math may not have been the only factor but we would not have bought ours unless it made a fair degree of economic sense. In 2005/6, my wife sold me on the concept that hotel rooms were costly and on the rise and that by locking in the price, i.e. the MF fees (plus modest annual increases), we were making a reasonable investment. I didn't buy that angle until we were introduced to the lockoff feature and then the math worked. Since we really didn't understand the Aruba rental market at the time, I'd be lying if I said that we knew that our initial $23K investment would be providing us with $3,000+ vacations for ~$1,200 per year, however, I am not unhappy it has worked out that way.:clap:

Aruba might be an unusual market situation and a stronger deal than many of the other Marriotts at this point, but we do understand that it is not guaranteed forever.
 

Big Matt

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I think that the key is that you bought prepaid vacations. If you can get over that part of it and just understand that you may never recoup the initial outlay, then it's okay.

I'm very happy with the decision we made about ten years ago, and feel like I've received good value and I have not intent on selling any of mine given that retirement is about 7-10 years away.

Math may not have been the only factor but we would not have bought ours unless it made a fair degree of economic sense. In 2005/6, my wife sold me on the concept that hotel rooms were costly and on the rise and that by locking in the price, i.e. the MF fees (plus modest annual increases), we were making a reasonable investment. I didn't buy that angle until we were introduced to the lockoff feature and then the math worked. Since we really didn't understand the Aruba rental market at the time, I'd be lying if I said that we knew that our initial $23K investment would be providing us with $3,000+ vacations for ~$1,200 per year, however, I am not unhappy it has worked out that way.:clap:

Aruba might be an unusual market situation and a stronger deal than many of the other Marriotts at this point, but we do understand that it is not guaranteed forever.
 

larryallen

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I think that the key is that you bought prepaid vacations. If you can get over that part of it and just understand that you may never recoup the initial outlay, then it's okay.

I am not knocking you but rather the timeshare salespeople. I just don't get this prepaid vacation theory. If the MFs are the same as the rents what exactly was prepaid?

Plus my other big problem with the timeshare sales process as the sales people go through a big analysis showing over the course of x number of years the costs of hotel will continue to rise.... However, the costs of MFs have gone up faster! The sales person didn't show that to me!
 
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m61376

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Math may not have been the only factor but we would not have bought ours unless it made a fair degree of economic sense. In 2005/6, my wife sold me on the concept that hotel rooms were costly and on the rise and that by locking in the price, i.e. the MF fees (plus modest annual increases), we were making a reasonable investment. I didn't buy that angle until we were introduced to the lockoff feature and then the math worked. Since we really didn't understand the Aruba rental market at the time, I'd be lying if I said that we knew that our initial $23K investment would be providing us with $3,000+ vacations for ~$1,200 per year, however, I am not unhappy it has worked out that way.:clap:

Plus my other big problem with the timeshare sales process as the sales people go through a big analysis showing over the course of x number of years the costs of hotel will continue to rise.... However, the costs of MFs have gone up faster! The sales person didn't show that to me!
In some ways I am not surprised that prices have taken a downward spiral. Timeshares, in general, I think appeal to the very subset of people who are struggling to hang on to what they've achieved in this economy. The very rich buy second homes or condos (for the most part, although I do know of owners at the SC in Aruba who I would categorize as being able to afford whatever they wanted). It is hard to currently justify a large initial outlay when third party rentals are depressed because there are lots of owners who can't afford to vacation and are anxious to recoup what they can from rentals.

That said, I was also recently surprised (actually shocked) when I visited Marriott.com and, out of curiosity, checked what the rates were in Aruba for the beginning of February. Even more surprising, there were many dates that they were completely sold out, even at about 4K per week for a studio and 7K for a 2BR. These rates are a bit higher than in the past, and it is the first time I've noticed in a few years that there was limited availability. So someone is willing to pay those prices, and the prices are surprisingly going up.

So while I was a bit miffed when I saw the increase in the MF's, esp. since they seemed to be for funding the reserves, my MF's are still less than 20% of what a week would cost to rent from Marriott. While it is true that I could rent from an owner at half the rate (of Marriott.com, but still significantly more than my MF's), I feel better without the element of uncertainty. I also subscribe to the notion that ownership forces you to vacation and prevents one from going from day to day without making time to recharge your batteries, so to speak. Paying the MF bills is a transient annoyance, but the cherished memories of time spent with family and/or friends is lasting. I know that sounds like sales-speak, but I truly do feel that way, and I think that we have to look at our devalued "investments" that way.

I also think that we are not atypical in that, prior to making a purchase ourselves, we rented hotel rooms and weren't aware of the whole timeshare rental market. So, for us at least, the convenience and the savings from having a kitchen largely offsets the MF. Going forward, however, the landscape has changed, because information is just easier to get online. That, coupled with the economy, with Marriott's program changes as the icing on top, has severely depressed the "value." But I do think that we will see a reversal as the economy improves and people again have the impetus and the means to vacation. I think the increased rentals at the SC that I've seen on Marirott.com is a reflection of people again returning to travel and, perhaps, that will eventually be reflected in an increased perceived value of ownership.

I still think that for many people ownership still makes sense- whether it be because of savings, for forced vacation time, or simply because it is nice to have a "vacation home" somewhere that we couldn't otherwise afford to or wouldn't want to be encumbered by on an annual basis.
 

EKniager

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I am not knocking you but rather the timeshare salespeople. I just don't get this prepaid vacation theory. If the MFs are the same as the rents what exactly was prepaid?

Plus my other big problem with the timeshare sales process as the sales people go through a big analysis showing over the course of x number of years the costs of hotel will continue to rise.... However, the costs of MFs have gone up faster! The sales person didn't show that to me!

A) If the MF's aren't lower than rental costs there would be no reason to own.
B) I could be wrong but we are betting that, over the long haul (20 years), hotel rates and rental fees will increase at a rate greater than MF's.
C) Sales people sell. No offense, but it's your job to do due dilligence and understand what you are buying.
 

VacationPro

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... I also subscribe to the notion that ownership forces you to vacation and prevents one from going from day to day without making time to recharge your batteries, so to speak. Paying the MF bills is a transient annoyance, but the cherished memories of time spent with family and/or friends is lasting. I know that sounds like sales-speak, but I truly do feel that way, and I think that we have to look at our devalued "investments" that way.

...

I still think that for many people ownership still makes sense- whether it be because of savings, for forced vacation time, or simply because it is nice to have a "vacation home" somewhere that we couldn't otherwise afford to or wouldn't want to be encumbered by on an annual basis.

I agree with this. I have been "forced" to take some vacations that will provide memories for the rest of my life. :whoopie:
 

Big Matt

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I think that it really only applies to high demand areas and weeks where you can't rent for the maintenance fee. In my earlier example about Hawaii, the rents are more than the fees, but not as much as when you count the upfront cost.

Simple example:
MF for Hawaii week is $1800
Rent is $2400

Pay $30,000 up front
Stay in your unit each year for 30 years

In this example you are prepaying $2800 per year for a vacation you can rent for $2400. Bad deal not even taking into account the time value of money.

If you pay next to nothing, and want to go every year it isn't a bad deal anymore.

Manor Club is worse, but there are a hand full of weeks that get good rents.

I am not knocking you but rather the timeshare salespeople. I just don't get this prepaid vacation theory. If the MFs are the same as the rents what exactly was prepaid?
 

dioxide45

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Seems like a good ROFR candidate for the DC.

It could be, but I don't think VAC needs the inventory for DC. Remember, they can get plenty of it from II. I am sure that there is an abundance of inventory that they can get their hands on without having to hold additional inventory that they would then need to sell. They seem to also be getting plenty of weeks back via reacquisition (forclosure).
 

funtime

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Lot's of Marriotts seem to be going for record low prices on ebay. One problem is that maintenance fees on the units for sale will immediately become due adding another 1,000 or so to the price. Funtime
 

dioxide45

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Lot's of Marriotts seem to be going for record low prices on ebay. One problem is that maintenance fees on the units for sale will immediately become due adding another 1,000 or so to the price. Funtime

And without a guaranty of being able to get a good reservation for 2012.
 

timeos2

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No fees paid no use - what is prepaid?

Plus my other big problem with the timeshare sales process as the sales people go through a big analysis showing over the course of x number of years the costs of hotel will continue to rise.... However, the costs of MFs have gone up faster! The sales person didn't show that to me!

The issue of (usually) ever rising fees is NEVER discussed at sales presentations, in fact the whole fee area is usually glossed over with a quick mention or two. I've never heard a sales person mention that over the long run the true cost of any timeshare will be the annual fees. The purchase price buys nothing but a right to use & own a week and the absolute obligation to paying whatever fees are imposed. Period.

Ask 95%+ of new, retail buyers how much the annual fes are and if they will stay the same or rise and you'll get a blank stare. They are left with the wrong impression that the (now) tens of thousands of dollars they just committed to has somehow purchased them a lifetime of great stays at the resort or in the system they just bought into or, at worst, an inexpensive way to parlay that ownership into easy trades virtually anywhere at anytime they want to go almost like phoning in for a hotel reservation but at a great savings for a much better (larger, more equipped) resort vs hotel room.

Any resale buyer is likely to know that trades are expensive and uncertain, renting is tough and likely prices depressed by massive oversupply and that purchase price gets you nothing but the need to pay the annual fees before you can use "your week".

A big reason why resales are depressed to the point of worthlessness is that understanding that most retail buyers simply don't have. They still, and aren't discouraged from, believing they are buying a regular real estate purchase that until the past bubble burst usually increased in value. The whole process of retail sales, while carefully avoiding calling it real estate due to laws, is set up to imply this is a great value and likely to get better with age. In fact it is the worst waste of money I've ever seen as even the top of the top lose at least 50% of the retail value on the day the rescind rights end - most are far worse. Wyndham or Wastegate, as two all too typical examples, drop 99% in resale value on that day. Owners stuck with payment agreement -often at outrageous annual interest - will NEVER come close to recovering that money.

So adding in the retail cost of virtually any resort or system along with the annual fees and taxes and you have "prepaid" nothing and those alleged "savings" over a hotel room, even considering the larger & more equipped timeshare unit, are gone. And you are tied to it indefinitely.

Substitute a resale for pennies on that retail purchase and, as TUG users know all too well, the whole picture changes. The only cost can be simply the annual fees which often come close or even beat rental values. You can easily buy only prime times which have the best use/trade/rental values. It can truly be a way to vacation in luxury at cheap cost IF the annual fees stay reasonable.

The only tough part are those fees. Over the years (nearly 20 now) we have discovered, as many even longer owners before us such as the incomparable Carolinian and Fern here on TUG, that owning where other OWNERS control the resort is one good place to start. It isn't a guarantee as owners can "cheap out" to the detriment of a resort but in general they tend to keep things up and hold fees as low as possible.

The other item that is critical is non-developer management. Besides often leaving them with far too much control over all aspects of the resort/system developer based management tends to see the resorts as income sources rather than running them as frugally as possible while maintaining the resort properly. High management fees set by percentage return, fees on things like special assessments raising those costs even higher, as well as demands that only "approved" contractors / services be used. All this and more can and does push annual costs up to the level that, as we are seeing at Manor Club, even the greatest resorts in the finest locations are priced so high that resale value is STILL near zero.

And that's for the best weeks - the 40 or more at seasonal resorts that aren't in demand can be another drag and non-performance again pushes up fees for all weeks.

Bottom line - buy resale, buy owner controlled, buy independently managed, buy to mostly use and plan on a zero value when you're done. Going in with those rules you'll likely have a great timeshare ownership & enjoyment that won't disappoint or cost an arm and leg to get rid of when the time comes. Buy retail, buy developer controlled and/or managed and think you have an "investment" or even a valuable item to resell and you will be nearly assured of serious disappointment and/or money lost.
 

pwrshift

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Seems like a good ROFR candidate for the DC.

I think the very fact Marriott isn't buying these low Ebay resales is that they don't want to add inventory for a company they are spinning off to sell to the highest bidder...including all the DC members.

Think about it...they could get MMC for just $209 if they used the ROFR. Surely, to Marriott, that's a steal...if they want to stay in the biz!
 

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I first found out about TUG when I was looking to buy a Manor Club Sequal when Disney was still with II. At that time, I think the going price for a platinum unit was something like 10k and dues were around $600? Maybe it was more like 8.5k, I forget. Anyway, when Disney left Interval I was so relieved I didn't pull the trigger on a purchase and now, I am even more relieved with these falling prices.

I eventually bought a Willowridge week last year for 1.1k and that included all closing fees. Gosh, at this price I overpaid for even that purchase. At least my dues for Willowridge are still reasonable, thought who know what will happen to the maint. fees for next year and in the future.

In all honesty, I think the inland Marriott resorts like Branson and Manor Club will never be worth more than one or two thousand for a platinum week. It's sad, I know but where has this outrage (and that word may be a stretch) for the past year or so when platinum Willowridge weeks have been selling for a few hundred dollars?

Don't forget that timeshare prices allways fall like a rock around this time of the year. They don't fall this much, but then again Willowridge has been selling for this price for the past year and at this point, when you take into account dues, Willowridge is a far greater value than Manor Club.

The only timeshares worth anything are platinum beach weeks and ski weeks at the marriotts. Anything else is just about worthless. I'm not even sure platinum ski weeks or platinum beach weeks are really worth much more than a few thousand, but those owners are very stuborn and I wonder how much longer many of them can wait for a seller at yesterday's prices.
 
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