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Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales

frank808

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Also add that has been mentioned by many other previously. If it wasn't for my Marriott timeshares I would have not been able to experience all these vacations and memories so cost effectively. Saving money by vacationing more often is debatable.

While we could not have gone and vacationed at these places for the cost of our maintenance and trade fees. We would have probably have not gone on so many vacations without timeshares.

I say as long as you know what you are buying and use it effectively, it was a good purchase. Fortunately or unfortunately that has led me to buy into hgvc, Marriott weeks and DVC timeshares. Though the adventures and memories I make with my wife and son are priceless.

Will have to stay at RC St Thomas one day like Greg has suggested. We stop there 4 or 5 times a year on cruises and St. Thomas reminds me too much of home. Have you stayed at Frenchman's Cove on St. Thomas?

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brianfox

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I've been a Marriott TS owner for 10 years, and the MF have risen quite a bit.
But they have kept in line with the increase in airline, car rental, fuel, entertainment, and dining costs associated with our vacation.
When I retire, it won't be the rising MF cost that will make me reconsider my vacation strategy. It will be the overall rising cost of vacations that will make luxury vacations harder to afford. The Marriott MF is only one piece of that puzzle.

The OP has come across as all hat and no cattle.
 

alohakevin

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NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down
“owners are in arrears“ who ever is the owner pays the MF. If you were behind on your mortgage you still pay property tax. If the bank owns it they do. As example.

As far as Marriott reselling properties for profit. Why wouldnt they? Do you plan on selling your house for less than you paid for it?
 

BocaBoy

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Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.
We have sold multiple weeks back to Marriott, as well as using their brokered sales to sell two other properties. At times, they have been very active in buying back weeks for the trust.
 

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The OP has come across as all hat and no cattle.

I'll give you a "10" just for that quote.

....not to mention you're also right about the rest. :thumbup:
 

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Vacationing with MVWC has been rewarding. Tonight’s sunset in Maui...



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rickandcindy23

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We are here at Ko Olina. We stayed at Disney's Aulani and burned 50 DVC points on a 1 bedroom for a single night, which was very nice, but our two bedroom at the Marriott's Ko Olina is superb. I would love to stay again, but I am still not a fan of Oahu. I don't know what it is about Oahu. It's just not what I want in a vacation. We will go to the Polynesian Cultural Center, Pearl Harbor, and Dole Plantation while here. I am excited to see all three of those, and we have a few drives to do as well.

Also, I love Kauai, but I only love the Princeville area and don't really appreciate the southern parts of the island. We have stayed at the Westin and Shearwater and love those experiences, but the Marriott resorts on the south side, I don't get excited about them at all. It's not the resorts, it's the area. I love Princeville, and that is all there is to it.

We are going on a presentation tomorrow for Marriott. I know they will have zero to say that will interest me, but I thought I would give it a shot. It's been at least 10 years. I will see what they have to say about ROFR. I will also see what they have to say about our SBP ownership, if they even have a clue that we own it.
 

Quilter

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I am also puzzled by this thread.
Best,

Greg
Greg I'm just plum puzzled by this thread too!

Reading through the first page I wondered where this train of thought was going. OP says he really wants to buy resale and then begins bashing the system. To support his point of view he says he has 25 years of experience.

Why does he even bother to invest so much time engaging with thousands on bulletin boards about Marriott?

If the OP is so convinced the MVC product is overpriced due to corporate greed, then it seems the best thing to do is tell him he shouldn't waste another moment thinking about it.

Problem solved.
 
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Quadmaniac

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Greg I'm just plum puzzled by this thread too!

Reading through the first page I wondered where this train of thought was going. OP says he really wants to buy resale and then begins bashing the system. To support his point of view he says he has 25 years of experience.

Why does he even bother to invest so much time engaging with thousands on bulletin boards about Marriott?

If the OP is so convinced the MVC product is overpriced due to corporate greed, then it seems the best thing to do is tell him he shouldn't waist another moment thinking about it.

Problem solved.
Suggested the same as he was worried about affording it. The most predicable is for him to be not obligated and stressed by Marriott and their "greed" . Got absolute silence to that response, which might have been a blessing in disguise
 
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l0410z

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Hypothetical numbers are nice but let's take a look at real numbers...

In 1993 I rented at the Hilton hotel in Palmetto Dunes for about $870 for the week with my corporate discount. The next year I rented privately at the Monarch for $1,100. In 1995 I purchased the rented unit through Marriott resale for $12,000. My MF was 420. The Monarch has an owners website that lists all MF's since 1984. From 1995 through 2019 (25 years) I paid about 22,800 in MF's and this includes all assessments. This comes out to about $915 per year. In 2019 I rented my unit for 2900. I have a fixed week so the Marriott Hotel for that week is 318 per night but again with my discount is comes out to 278 per plus 25 a day resort fee plus tax is 2,378.64. In the early years I used and traded for MR. MR got me 130,000 points every year if I wanted that funded trips outside of timeshare. In 2001 I did a 440,000 MR travel package 4 RT tickets anywhere in the world plus 14 days at any hotel. MR is in my opinion a lot less value so now I rent it to go outside of timeshares. I can make the numbers mean whatever I want to justify the point I want to make. The fact is if I never purchased a timeshare I would still have vacationed with my family and traveled abroad. I have no way of knowing what the costs might have been.

Let me add to the picture. Let's talk about initial investment. If I took the 12,000 and put it into my company stock in 1995 it would be worth about 72,000 plus yearly dividends. If I worked at Lehman Brothers it would be worth nothing. No one has the crystal ball on how an investment will turn out so it is always a backward looking view.

timeshares are no different. I had no clue how it would turn out. I added another summer Monarch week and an EOY Grand Chateau. My kids (28 and 31) love to travel. We still go away as a family (to Aruba or HHI the last 5 years). I figured out how to leverage what I own within the Marriott systems and outside of timeshares. it was a great investment with a quantifiable return to the things I value.
 
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jjking42

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Not new
I am sorry if your family members purchased retail from Marriott and are now struggling to keep up with MF increases while on a fixed income.

I am not a Marriott owner but used to be. I had family members that bought retail from Marriott in Ko Olina . They traveled for business with Marriott hotels and sometimes converted weeks to hotel points. Not a good idea but thier week not mine so whatever they want to do. They were able to sell that week on the resale market when they got too old to travel.

Prior to buying my first Marriott I was invested in Wyndham and HGVC weeks that we’re all purchased resale. I only attended one Marriott sales presentation and it was the most low pressure I have been too. HGVC and Wyndham were both much higher pressure.

I purchased my Marriott week for under 5000 and was able to rent it for enough to cover MF anytime I did not use it . I purchased it prior to Marriott introducing the points program. I had the chance to convert it to points system but thought the conversion was not a good deal. Having been used to HGVC and Wyndham points I did not like the skim Marriott was taking on the conversion. Example they would give me 90 points but charge me 100 to book the same week they gave me 90 for. Marriott bought back the week from me for the same price I paid resale when I purchased it. So they were buying weeks but only at resale prices.

I have always used the same financial formula for timeshares and it has always worked out. I assume that I will not own it for more than 10 years and at the end of the 10 years it will be worth zero.

I take the purchase price divided by 10 and add the MF to it and figure that’s my annual cost. If that is lower than market rental rates I buy it or hold it and if that price is higher I sell it or give it away ASAP. It a fairly conservative formula but it works for me. If after 10 years it still has resale value that just gravy on top.

You have to be very careful what you buy. If it’s not a High demand week in a high demand location you may be upside down from day one. My formula prevents me from buying anything that will put me upside down. When my HGVC weeks went up on MF and I saw the rental price coming down I sold them resale for what I payed for them. Rental prices and MF are so close now on many locations that most timeshares are not worth buying but some still are.

If you want to buy into a points program and you don’t own fixed converted Marriott weeks that you bought resale before the conversion deadline than I would avoid Marriott points and look elsewhere. It might be strange with your family staying at Marriott and you somewhere else so maybe the best thing is just to rent marriotts when traveling with family.

Lots of Marriott owners are very happy with thier fixed resale weeks and I think that’s the best use of the Marriott system. I am not a fan of thier points program
 

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Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.
I completely agree
 

TheTimeTraveler

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The OP hasn't been on here since April 22nd so I am not sure if he (or she) will ever be able to read any of these responses.

Maybe Marriott wasn't the right match after all.





.
 

Quilter

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I am sorry if your family members purchased retail from Marriott and are now struggling to keep up with MF increases while on a fixed income.
I had trouble following the train of thought expressed by Not New. Where did you see his family was struggling with MF's?

I had more of the feeling his family had purchased and were enjoying their weeks. It seemed Not New was disappointed he couldn't purchase a resale at a low price that suited him and was blaming the cost on corporate greed. I felt the OP was so bitter towards Marriott for the way the corporation runs the business that a purchase would never be the right match.
 

jjking42

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For me personally, maybe, but I have many family members in Marriott, so as I've said 25 years of experience with the system. Collectively they've spent SEVERAL fortunes in costs, fees, etc
This is the post that mention family member spending fortunes
 

jjking42

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this is the post about MF going up and not being able to afford it
 

jjking42

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"An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."

in the above he mentions passing on high MF to family.
 

bazzap

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"An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."

in the above he mentions passing on high MF to family.
Superficially, these numbers may well look scary.
However:
- my MF’s have not been going up 5% over the last 15-20 years
- even if they do in future, whose to say that owners income will not rise similarly
- even if costs do prove too expensive at some point, there are always options to rent, sell, give away...
 

Quilter

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This is the post that mention family member spending fortunes
When I read that same post I got the feeling the OP wanted what the other family members had (Marriott) but didn't want to pay his perception of the fortunes they were paying. I visioned the family members enjoying their Marriott timeshares (hence, the OP's opinion they were paying fortunes). I didn't see anything saying they were struggling to pay MF's. The title of the thread gave me the opinion the OP wanted into the Marriott system.
 

Quilter

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"An interesting note. Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family. Make sure to only compound interest annually. Here's one:

$2500 in MF in todays dollars turns into $6633 MF in 20 years.
$12000 in MF in todays dollars turns in $31889 MF in 20 years."

in the above he mentions passing on high MF to family.
I read that as one of the OP's misperceptions. There's no reason the MF's need to be passed on to family. The weeks can be disposed of if family doesn't want them.
 

jjking42

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I have copied below some of the OP comments that lead me to believe he was dealing with family members fixed income and raising MF in Hawaii. He talks about not being able to afford MF and family members being told that rental prices would go up but instead MF doubled and rental price are the same last 10-15 years. He might be more interested in helping get his family member out of Marriott points. Maybe he wanted to take them over but found out the privileges don't transfer. For sure he hates the lying sales weasels. He wrote a lot about getting back your investment and blames the seller not the buyer. Retail timeshare are a bad investment and I feel for anyone that feels taken. Unfortunately it is buyer beware these days.

"Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment?

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value.

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system."

I've never seen in point of actual fact that Marriott bought back anything and I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Back to the point: It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them. You may be able to afford $12K in MF today but not $32K in 20 years (which is where 12K goes at 5% in 20 years primarily due to exorbitant management fees).

What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED

Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.

They absolutely were promising it... the same way they promise you'll be able to go to XYZ because they're in the process of building it, even though XYZ might not open for 5 years (and not something they tell you).

Easy to say it's on the buyer, but we all know Marriott sales plays hardball even if they claim never to use hardball tactics. Try to leave a sales meeting, especially if they've promised you something to get you there. Or if you are at the almost sale phase and they have your ID. You aren't getting out of there.

We all want to believe in the pie they are selling us...

Lucky you. I wish my family started at resales, not full price."
 

jjking42

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I left of these two comments by OP

"I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point

Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.."

 

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pwrshift

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Hey GregT...good to read your thoughts. If I remember correctly I rented you one of my Marriott timeshares before you got knee deep into buying them. I enjoyed my Marriott experiences, and saw the world flying biz class on some 9 million MR points earned over the years. No regrets.

[Edited - Ad-like comment should be taken to private conversation.]

Take care,

Brian
 
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Hey GregT...good to read your thoughts. If I remember correctly I rented you one of my Marriott timeshares before you got knee deep into buying them. I enjoyed my Marriott experiences, and saw the world flying biz class on some 9 million MR points earned over the years. No regrets.

[Edited ...]

Take care,

Brian
Hi Brian,

I know you addressed your post to GregT. I hope you don't mind me weighing in here.

When you and I bought 20-20+ years ago the timeshares were coupled with a very nice MR program. Even my worst high-priced developer Manor Club is still an ok buy because of travel incentives we received at the time of purchase. Since it's a pre-2010 purchase it's now enrolled. All for the exorbitant initial price of $18,900. I use that week as a points generator. It get's a stinky 2375 DC points. That makes the purchase price of those DC points roughly $8. Remember though, that purchase came with almost 600K MR points when 600K bought several premium travel packages. MF's (as you well know) are $1418 so my MF per point is $.59. With much time and experience I can recoup the MF and have some change in my pocket.

GregT and others who have posted a way for the the OP to view the MVC program differently have figured out how to make it work for them. From Greg's posts I never thought his purchases were impulsive. It always seems he extensively researched and number crunched. If I remember correctly he got into the system pre-DC.

We got into the Marriott Vacation Club at a good time. We have a fairly lucrative portfolio that recoups much of the MF's while offering adequate personal use. We've been in long enough to obtain Titanium status in the Bonvoy program. There's enough activity to generate a decent accumulation of Bonvoy points (although the benefits have diminished significantly).

My point is the current MVC is not the one I bought, or the one most of us who bought pre-2010. It's flexible. The resorts are grand. It's expensive. Working the system is not for the faint-of-heart.

I was lost in most of the points the OP made about the corporate greed. Maybe yes. Maybe no. I probably will never know because I'm enjoying my narrow view of our ownership. All I know is that we got in at the right place and right time. Today's developer program or even the hybrid sales would not be a match for us. So that would leave us with non-enrolled resales. It would be a whole different timesharing world that I can't even wrap my head around.

The OP said he's been in the timeshare world for 25 years. Sounds to me if he got into the right resort 25 years ago he'd have the purchase he's looking for today. I don't see that as a possibility.
 
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